Creating Bridge Programs and Career Development

AI-Generated Transcript below. There may be errors.

Claire Davis 0:10

Hello, and welcome back to another episode of today's medical sales leader. I'm your host, Claire Davis. And today we have somebody who is one of my favorite people on the planet. It's Ansel Lee, how are you doing today? Ancil, it's so great to have you.

Ancil Lea 0:25

Well, thank you Claire. The feeling's mutual. And I'm doing well. And hey, thank you for having me on your show.

Claire Davis 0:34

Oh, my gosh, my pleasure. I was, I was thinking about you the other day, because, first of all, if anybody here has not yet seen, and so he's everywhere on LinkedIn, and otherwise, but be sure that be sure to follow him here today. And I was thinking about you the other day, because my son, who was six, he is in kindergarten, and he's loving school. And while he does, he's got this great big, fun run happening at school. And so the days leading up when my older son is like, oh, yeah, and he's like running laps in the backyard. He's kind of, you know, excited. My younger son is really nervous. And I said, Well, what, what's going on? But be like, you know, aren't you excited to run with all your buddies? And he goes, Oh, I just, I'm not sure. And I don't know if I'll win. And we'll we have fun, and what am I going to wear and all these questions are like really getting him in a twist. And so I said, Don't worry, we'll go watch, we'll watch other people run. And then we'll just see what you want to do, you can just stand here with mommy. And so sure enough, we get to this race, Hansel, and I'm standing there, and we're watching everybody, and it takes him all but 30 seconds to like, catch the vibe, and take off with his friends. And so the reason this reminded me of you was a lot of times we talk about, you know, these different opportunities for medical sales, people who are laid off, and they're, they're looking for full time employment, but sometimes unsure about taking that half step in the meantime, which brings me to your bridge program. So I figure sometimes it's just best to bring the expert on himself to really explain what's possible when you're stuck after a layoff or otherwise, and you're looking to get back in the industry. So without, without further ado, I would love for you to tell everyone here a little bit about what you're up to with the bridge program. And then also with blue sail, if you wouldn't mind, but let's start with bridge.

Ancil Lea 2:35

Absolutely. And, you know, the bridge thing, just, you know, it was kind of an obvious thing for me, as you know, I've been working in medical software medical sales, since 1988. And, you know, so I have sold a ton of stuff, software technology throughout the years. And, you know, I was just watching, you know, really, like watching and listening, you know, especially on LinkedIn, to folks that were getting laid off, and, and just really touched my heart. And it just really moved me and I thought, well, what can I do? What can I work? How can I help. And so I've created the bridge program to basically help them bridge, you know, hopefully to the next big thing. And what, what we what we do there is basically just go and one, you know, I interview everybody, and I look, you know, look over the resumes. And I'm not by the way, I'm not a resume guy, okay, let me just let me just say, I know a guy, you know, a guy, and I'm not a resume person, um, but I'm just looking to see who they are, you know, trying to figure out who they are, and where they want to be. And so they, they would join our bridge program. And I had designed a curriculum that would allow them to, you know, hey, get your, you know, one of the first things we do is you got to be before you do and, and what I mean by that is, you really need to get your online media together and you need to look the best on LinkedIn. But for instance, you need to have everything you need to have a great banner, you need to have great copy underneath it and you know, do you have a brand statement and all that kind of stuff. So, you know what, what I really my goal for my bridge, my bridge program was to help people get to the next big thing. And and also what I wanted to do was I wanted to you know, as I told her, our group, I said, you know, there may be stuff here you've heard before, but what I hope it does is spark something in you that encourages you that encourages You too, to go after this next big thing. And I find, you know, a lot of people, you know, being discouraged. And, and I, you know, the mere fact the last day, I'll just kind of say to our last session, I told him, I said, when I interviewed you, I looked at your resume, and now I've listened to you. And there's some disparity, there's some disparity in just believing in yourself. And, and that's my job. And I felt like to encourage you, to encourage you, and give you some tools to give you the edge to find that next big thing. And so we took them to this, we created this curriculum. And we, it was just one of the biggest blessings I've ever had. It's just, it's just incredible. And now we've kind of taken it to a new level.

Claire Davis 5:59

Mm hmm. So so they come to you, they're, you know, looking, they're between jobs, right? Generally, everyone in the bridge program is kind of between roles.

Ancil Lea 6:10

Yeah, they're, they're either between are they've been out of work for a while, or they want to change, they want to, they want to go into medical sales, they want to go into or they're in, they're in health care, but they realize, Hey, I've got to from to change my life. I feel like this relational sales approach is what I need to do to, to find me find an opportunity.

Claire Davis 6:39

Oh, wow, that's great. In you know, okay, so so they're, they're, they're getting their online presence streamlined. You know, you're looking at their LinkedIn profile. And then there's a there's an additional sales component, correct? Where they can start? Is this also connected with the contract? Work that you're not?

Ancil Lea 7:00

Yeah, thank you. Sure. That really the second part of that, and what I want to do was be able to lend my like, lend my name, Lynn mine, you know, you would you would you've got a gap somewhere. Somebody's asking you a question, you know, you're getting asked about that during an interview. So hey, use us use me to fill to fill this gap. And, also, we have, we have a portfolio of products, you can sell those and make money while you're and hopefully honing your skills while you're looking for that next big thing. So we actually have our we, we educate them in such a way that they could go out and just or not, so they're really more making connections than they are anything else. And, but it's with no medical software technology.

Claire Davis 7:54

Oh, that's terrific. I remember thinking after, gosh, this would have been layoff number two, of five. So if you if anybody's not familiar, have gone through five, these layoffs. But the second layoff, I remember thinking that there really needed to be a way that I could continue building and nurturing the relationships that I had made. Well, not when I was in the field. Right, what a wonderful way. I mean, I'm sure some of the relationships may be new, based on the software and who needs it, but, but there's a bit of crossover as well to keep people fresh is would you say?

Ancil Lea 8:28

Yeah, so you know, that's, that's one of the things that I one of the things I do and kind of really teach them is just to realize even with the your existing people, you know, the opportunity that's all around you. They're their opportunity, there's opportunity everywhere. And and I won't tell you this five minute story I've got which is a LinkedIn which is a I hate to admit this instruct came from an Instagram real I confess that, but it you know, I'm all about there. Again, we get I think we get I do, you know, we can get so down on ourselves, that we miss these opportunities, and they're, you know, it's my job to help them see those opportunities. And they're just all around you. And it's incredible. So anyway, it's all about you know, getting your head up looking around and, and putting on the glasses.

Claire Davis 9:31

Oh, my gosh, I love it. Yeah. And I think so much of what I appreciate about you is that you are this stalwart champion for other people in the way of helping them find what they're great at and reminding them that they are truly valuable, great people. And I think I think a really great coach. I don't know if you've coached other than, you know, these kinds of things, but I hope so but you have this way about you Ansel, where Are you really inspire confidence in people, and so much of the curve, so much of our career and so much of those dips and roller coaster moments in our career, our confidence takes a huge hit. And so I think often it takes somebody like you who's willing to look and say, Hey, wait, I know that right now. You're in this place that is hard and emotionally, financially, physically hard. And you've got those blinders on. Let me help open up your worldview a little bit and encourage you I think that's a really wonderful thing you're doing.

Ancil Lea 10:34

Well, that's, that's very kind, I will tell you that I am a 20 plus year. Well, 14 year high school soccer coach, okay, coach high school, and we were very good, by the way my girls and and I coached club soccer for a long time, and that, but it kind of just spills over into who I am. And listen, I know that I can. I'm not that talented. But here's what I know. I can do, I can encourage you. And I can hopefully help you see those things in you that that are special that that you can add. I think we forget those. When we get in that, like you said won't get hard place. You know, I think we forget them. I think you know, and, and we need we need a friend to come alongside of us. So yeah, I think that's I think that's my gig. That's what I love to do. I had a multimillionaire take me to this and one of the books take me to breakfast one day, we're working on a project today at Park hospital, and I was working, they were working on a we're working on an app, they brought me in to consult on it and and he had gotten to know me, and he's in his mid 70s He's he's made much money and he's kind of crusty and I would and and he would we sit down in a Panera in Little Rock. And he said, you know, he said, you know, Ansel you, you really like to help people? And I'm like, yeah, he said, You really need to help yourself. He's like, he was trying to motivate me. And I'm like, so I went back and had to think about that. And really, he's right, with a little twist that if I can help, if I can help you, I will help out. It will bless me. So yeah, that's what I know.

Claire Davis 12:39

Oh, that feels so good. That gives me chills. And you know, I think I think that doesn't come from nowhere. So where were, you know, if you had to look back through your career, like, you know, before you were helping 25 500 hospital clinics and, and before even selling into health care? Where does that sort of servant approach come from? Was it modeled for you? Did you did you see somebody do this? Did you receive help yourself and say, I'm gonna carry this on? Where did where's the seed of this?

Ancil Lea 13:14

Well, you know, I will, I will say that, you know, just had a lot of good people. I got trained at IBM early on, and the people that trained me, you know, had a lot of that. But even further back, I would, I would try to hold this together and talk about this. I would say my mom.

Claire Davis 13:36

Yeah, my mom was a big, big influence in my life as well. I think mothers have a have a tendency to really leave a forever mark. But yeah, your mom.

Ancil Lea 13:48

Yeah, no, she's just the hardest working person I've ever met. And you've, you've seen me, I've written about some of the some of the things she's done. But, you know, she just was very much and still is pretty much a servant. And maybe that's where I get that. But she taught I mean, she ain't right. I just owe so much to my mom. For to say the least.

Claire Davis 14:17

That's awesome. Oh, my gosh, well, I'm so grateful for what you're doing. For people. It's so obvious to me that you really have your finger on the pulse of what the different modern ways of approaching a career can be can look like and also what are some things that people aren't typically doing or some new things that they can try something else recently, and I'm sure people who have seen you here on LinkedIn have seen this, but you are constantly in my feed because you're doing lives. You're producing great content. You're introducing us to amazing guests with amazing stories on your LinkedIn videos as well. So you Tell us a little bit about you know, when you kind of took the tiger by the tail of video and live interview, and what that's done for you and your business, and also what it can do for someone's career, because I think it's still a little bit of the untested waters for many job seekers. But it's certainly here to stay in my opinion, and you're doing it really well. I think you're opening doors and options for a lot of people.

Ancil Lea 15:25

Well, you know, I sat down with Thank you for saying all that. But I had sat down probably four or five years ago with a guy consider a, you know, a great, you know, he's done a lot in video, you know, throughout the years. And I know he does, he actually works in ministry, video radio ministry around the world. And so we were I just took him to coffee. And I said, Well, you know, I'm thinking about doing more video, you know, what do you think ought to do? And maybe, yes, should people interview me? Should I? How should we do that? Or what? How should we go about doing this? Because it's sometimes it's, you know, you feel like, hey, if I'm just getting on speaking to the, you know, the camera is that good enough, you know, and he just really, he really, he said, I think you should interview people, and allow them to tell their story. And, and so that's really kind of what we've done over the last, you know, five plus years. And, you know, with the advent of live, I think it it's, it's, I still think it's underused, I think it it really hits the algorithm, and especially in LinkedIn. You know, the first when I first started doing lives, I was I've written my first common grounds book, and my team has already answered, We want you to go sit in a coffee shop, and turn on your phone, and we want you to broadcast live, and I've never done a live before. And that was just a Facebook Live. I was amazed when I did that, that one that people you know, and I, it really mattered. I mean, this was back in 2017. And so that's when I first really kind of started doing that, and start doing it more started really feeling more out of my phone. And now we've kind of evolved into more, what we're doing more lives, you know, from a studio, and we're also doing more recorded kind of video to put out there, but it just it and, you know, as you talked about, we've done so much, especially the live stuff that people go, how do you do that? You know, and so we you know, with Ansel, for actually just want to say answer for is my, my producer, you know, he's the one running the show on all these on all these LinkedIn lives and on our video stuff, and he just does a great job. So we've actually started doing some of that for, for people, for individuals and companies. And which is pretty cool. We enjoy that. And he's good at it. And, and it just makes it easy, you know, to sit down and, you know, and, and, you know, have my guests have my questions and just take off?

Claire Davis 18:27

Well, you know, I think something that is so important to to consider for anybody who is thinking, Hey, I see that video is a way that I can get visible with people I want to work for or in a new industry. Or if you're not in medical and you want to get in medical and you're trying to get out there. I think there is a real fine balance between what we put online, and what will help our career. Because video and visibility can absolutely get you in front of people who you want to see you for your career. However, there's an art to it, just like there's an art to interviewing just like there's an art to writing your resume, just like there's an art to working with your physicians, right. So I'm so grateful that you are offering this because I have seen it go both ways. I've seen people just get out there on video and unleash on social media and say some things that have turned companies away from them when they applied. And I've also seen people snatched up after an incredible video where they shared a message about their leadership or maybe something they're most proud of. And then they leveraged that to make a path for themselves to the career that they wanted or whatever the next step was, I've seen both. So I don't want to I don't want to to glaze that over this point. Because it's so worth it. Especially if you're here and you're watching this and you're you know, you've heard of Ansel, but you know, you're you're like how the heck does he get so good on camera and how do I do that? Well, I mean you you Put some serious time in. And it's so well worth hiring somebody like you and working with a coach to help you to formulate that story and to kind of not softball you, but walk you through. Okay, what? What's going to help you? And what could potentially not help? So do you have any, maybe some guideposts or some tips that you would share with someone who is new to being interviewed, and certainly new to live content on LinkedIn? And maybe what are some of the things to focus on? Or some of the things not to? Really, you know, think some things to avoid? Maybe?

Ancil Lea 20:35

Sure. I will say that, you know, it's just to get better. And that's what I've always told my team, and folks that I work with that, you know, to, to be good at something, you need to do something and be poorly and do it poorly. You know, and, and so yeah, maybe, you know, maybe you do it in a more controlled, where you're recording it, and then editing it and sending it out. That's what I used to do. I mean, I used to do a lot of that. And I can't tell you how many hours I've done of that. I'm just sharing thoughts and that you know what I did? That's kind of what I did when I announced the bridge program. You know, I think I did a, I can't remember if I did a live or if it was recorded, I think I did a lot I can't remember. But I made a promise. I said I'm gonna launch this thing. And so, you know, I had this conversation and you just will not believe how many people want. You know, it's amazing that never that never engaged. That never Yeah, that never say anything, but they're they're just have, you just will not believe how many people watch what you're doing. And so it has such an impact. And I will tell you that I've just got to tell you this story. Last Friday, we I was actually traveling, my wife is a high school counselor. We were taking the cheerleaders up to Kansas City, so we're stopping for lunch in Bentonville. And so we're at torches tacos in Bentonville. Yeah, and we're all there's like 30 people to get to check out, you know, to get to do your order. So I'm just I'm not in any hurry. And plus, I had a head shaved that day, and I I picked up the wrong jacket, and it was raining. It had your dog hair all over it. I'm like, I guess I'm gonna wear this. So So I'm standing there, looking at this menu, and, and, you know, there are 30 people standing in front of me. And all of a sudden I see one guy kind of swimming like a fish swimming upstream, you know, and all sudden, boom, he was right here. He said, Hey, you're Ansel Lee. I was like, Yes. And, and, and he said, Hey, man, you connected with me a few weeks ago on LinkedIn. And it turns out, this guy's at higher up in a technology company. And he said, I watched your lives. And you know, I'm just again, I just did not look the best in the world. And I was just, you know, slightly embarrassed. But it was just, it just showed me the power of, of doing these live doing video doing lives. It's incredible. And you know, and besides that the amount of business that's generated, you know, for us has been incredible as well. So, you know, it's great to be recognized, but even more so for information that is generating interest is generating conversation and is generating revenue.

Claire Davis 23:48

Wow, that's great. And I feel like when you get when you start getting recognized at Taco shops on a road trip, I feel like you've made I feel like that's when your celebrity status has kicked in.

Ancil Lea 24:03

It's Oh, man. I don't know. It was just really all that. But I know. I'm really impressed all my wife's cheerleaders. Yeah, they were like, like, like, Whoa, cool.

Claire Davis 24:14

So, so can you I mean, I, it's so clear that video here for you know, at least from my perspective is here to stay. You know, I think since we've experienced the last five years and a lot of people getting siloed and a lot of doors being shut certainly in healthcare video is a really effective way of getting in front of people and it's been of infotainment, right but it's it's definitely sometimes the faster way to make an impression to build trust with somebody that way. Can you talk a little bit about you know, when you're when you're talking about business growth, after you started implementing more video and more live content? Was there a ramp up Time was it immediate was it you know, we hit our stride after six months? And then we were like, Oh, we're sticking with this thing? How has video really transformed your business?

Ancil Lea 25:09

Yeah, it's it? That's a great question. I think it's been critical to, you know, moving the ball moving the needle for us, you know, and, and I will say, hate when I want to find out how I, how I should look or how my backgrounds should look, I really want to say, I watch Claire Davis. I'm just saying, You do such an awesome job.

Claire Davis 25:38

And I'll get that 20 bucks, I owe you over

Ancil Lea 25:43

the INMO that's my kid. My kids know, Ben. So you know it. Again, I think that one of the cool things has been, you know, I got connected with Jeff Beecher. Okay. And through just all this, you know, through, you know, through, you know, through Mike Russell through whatever. And, and Jeff, you know, he and I got to know each other and, and he is I have him, he helps me. Hosts, you know, sometimes we're Yeah, we're doing this series right now with the fuel participants at this accelerator up in Bentonville. And he's helping me co host, and there's so much fun. And when you can ping off somebody like Jeff, who's got, you know, who's just got quick wit and, you know, he's just, and he understands me, this guy's been involved in innovation technology. And so he understands a right it's it he's, so it's opened doors, it's created friendships that I think will last a lifetime. So it's all about connecting, you know, with others. And I think this is a way people can see you and an inherent view and it also hear your heart, you know, in what you're about, and, and, you know, what are the things that you do? What's important to you?

Claire Davis 27:07

Yeah, yeah. Do you think that, you know, as far as that piece of business, I mean, you've you've been in the healthcare and technology world for a while? Do you think that things have radically changed in the way that we relate to others and serve each other in this industry? Or do you think it's more of the same? What are? What is the evolution you've seen in, in these industries?

Ancil Lea 27:31

As far as having conversations and creating? Yeah, it's hard. It's, you know, when I first started, it was so easy, I was thinking about this, you could walk in anywhere, anybody would talk to you, you know, and, and now it's not, it's not that way. And I think it's now it's more, you know, it's really, you know, who do you know, and who, but really, who trust you? And, you know, can you book are you a trusted, you know, force out there. And I think this is where LinkedIn and you know, being able to write content and, and to have social proof, you know, to back that up, you know, backup, you know, you or whatever your coaching or whatever your product, when your customer testimonials. Thank you almost, you know, again, I kind of go back to somebody else, you know, recently, you know, said, approached me and said, You know, I've been watching you for six months. I know you. Wow. You know, they've been watching me for six months. And they know me. And, and, and so they know that I know your style. I know your art, I know what you're how you're coming at this. And I think it's, it's, it's new, it's kind of get you in I mean, it's you know, it's way of building relationships where now you can't get through the side door into a hospital, you know, it's it's just an even though you may have you may be helped a company. One of the innovation companies, which I'm not a medical device guy, but I did have relationships inside this hospital. And so I'll walk into the cath lab with a suit on, you know, and they're all like, they're like, all the doctors are like, Oh, this is a suit, a suit in the cath lab and yeah, quite high in the stairwell

Claire Davis 29:35

. Exactly.

Ancil Lea 29:38

That's like, oh my gosh, but it was funny it but what I learned, you know, and helping some of these companies is that the committee system is just incredibly, I mean, hard to get through. And that you know, and that's where it really who I feel like Jeff has a lot of you know, he's had a lot of insight about you Have the committee system and, you know, try and getting your product through, you know, whereas, you know, working in health tech, we've really not ever had to deal with that much, you know, and, but, but man, if your medical device, you're I mean it Gosh, it's it's a, it's a labyrinth, you know, have to get through there. But matter of fact, I've actually put together a video course on the intro to healthcare and just talking about the lay of the land. It really, if you will, what, what a hospital what it looks like to try to get into hospital, what it looks like to get into the surgery center or to a clinic, and all the players and all that, you know, that you've got to have to understand to get in there. But now it's just complex. And but I do think what breaks you out of that? Is it definitely is, you know, your online presence, your brand. Yeah, you talking to them daily, either through your writing or through video?

Claire Davis 31:08

Mm hmm. Well, I think that in for everyone here listening, I'm sure they're experiencing this too, but from what I know of you, and in the last couple years, since we've gotten to know each other over LinkedIn, is that you really do focus on creating these resources for people so that they can thrive like so it's, it's not a surprise to me that somebody said, Hey, after six months, I knew you. Because the answer Lee we know is the same in his book as he is on his lives, as I'm sure you are in person. And one thing that is so very clear, is that you feel and I've asked you this before that serving others is a big deal. So to kind of kind of bring this all together, can you break that apart for us really quick? And just share? You know, why is serving others first, such a big deal? And maybe what are some ways that you know, people can kind of lean into that today?

Ancil Lea 32:08

Thank you that thank you. And I will say that, you know, I really hadn't hadn't planned my career that way. No, it just it just really just kind of it really, you know, this principle, I guess I've just really discovered as I just tried to help others, you know, and, and that when I, when I serve other folks, that it's just, there's just a blessing that comes back to me many fold. And, you know, whether it's you know, working on with the children's homes that I've done, I've talked about my and common grounds too. But I mean, it could be just surfing, you could be coaching soccer, you know, it could, it doesn't have to be you know, it doesn't have to be monumental, but helping someone helping others, you know, and giving of yourself is There is something magical about when you do that, that you just get blessed. I just, that's all I gotta say I I will tell you and I may have I may have I've talked I may have talked about this before I was sitting on board one time and has settled the children's home board and we're going down to way down to three hours away to have a board meeting at a shelter. And I I had my old family van Okay, and this is in the 90s and it was full of French fries and everything else that you can think of you know, I haven't haven't five kids. And so I had the fame I don't know how in the world I wound up with the family van down there but I did and so this late that one of the board members happen. They owned a fleet of car dealerships and and then all sudden it became stormy and so she had been flown down there on a jet and she said oh Ansel, can you drive me home? I'm like Sandy, my, my car looks terrible. You know, she said, I don't care. Yeah, just get me home. You know, the jet can't land and bought you know, so Okay, so So here I am. So I'm driving this this light who's super sweet and we had a great conversation about three hour trip back and and so she says that's right before she gets out of the family van. That's full ketchup french fries is that she said the next place the next time we go something someplace. I'll pick you up on my jet. Oh, cool. Said what? She said, Yeah. Wherever we go, I'll fly. That's it? Well, you don't have to do that. And, and, and so the next time we get we went someplace, she's like, she rings me up. She said, All right. Hey, do you want, here's your chance, we'll come pick you up. I'm like, Are you? Are you kidding me. And so, so I'm on a citation flying. We all fly very far. But I mean, the experience of that was just incredible. But I'm telling you just serving others and opens doors that you just cannot believe, whether you go serve on the board of a women's shelter, whether you're serving on the board, or you're helping, you're helping collect clothes, and, you know, those kinds of things. Really, you know, that ring my bell, you know, I just, you know, when people need help, you know, and can you stand in the gap and help them you know, I'm not looking for the blessing, but you know, what, I get showered with blessings. And I just can't. I can't tell you what, living a life. You know, having a life like that, I think is a rich life. And, you know, that's what I that's what I want. That's what I want, like for my kids, I want my kids to know there's other people in this world that need your help, and you need to step up and help them. And so anyway, that's it just this gift First, start small, you know, all you have to do something small. You don't have to do something big. Just take one step one little step, and, and people will be so glad to see you show up someplace.

Claire Davis 36:52

Yeah, yeah. Okay, so I can already feel that we're going to be demanded to do a second episode with you

Ancil Lea 37:01

I've got to talk way too much.

Claire Davis 37:04

Oh, not at all. But I mean, I'm inspired. I'm sure everybody listening and watching here too, is as well. So listen, you know, from your bridge program, where you help people in a tight spot between roles, or when they're looking to break into medical sales, to your blue sale, where you're doing done for you video work and interviews for people who are maybe just thinking about getting interviews and live content out online. You're doing a lot to help people in this industry. So if somebody wants to get in touch with you and find out more, or potentially work with you, what's the best way for them to do that?

Ancil Lea 37:38

You know, find me right here on LinkedIn is to direct message me. That's the best. The best way to find me. Awesome.

Claire Davis 37:47

Well, thank you. Oh, I'm sorry. Continuing please.

Ancil Lea 37:50

Oh, no, no, no, I'm just saying connect with me. Awesome.

Claire Davis 37:53

I love it. Thank you so much for your time today, Ancil, it was so great to dive into everything you're doing. I know. You know, like I said, I'm not exaggerating. You're one of my favorite people here. And it's not mystery or hard to see that everything you do you do with heart. And I really respect that and it's you're like a magnet for good. So thank you for all you're doing and I'm so grateful to be in your circle. Thanks for spending the time with me today.

Ancil Lea 38:17

Claire, Thank you for doing this. Thank you for inviting me here and thank you for being an inspiration to me. And and for and guiding me and guiding us so so. Thank you, your friend.

Claire Davis 38:29

Oh my gosh, anytime we got to stick together this industry's wild. Truth. Yeah. Well, for everyone listening, please take this opportunity. Go connect with Ansel, send him a DM and see what opportunities are really out there for your career. By engaging someone like Ancil to give you a fresh perspective and new opportunities in ways that you may not have even considered or available to you until today, so do not hesitate. And until next week. Thank you so much for joining us and we'll see you next time. Thanks, everybody.

Ancil Lea 39:04

Claire, Thank you

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Making a Positive Change within Healthcare

AI-Generated Transcript below. There may be errors.

Claire Davis 0:00

And welcome back to another episode of today's medical sales leader and I have somebody special with me here today. But my first question is this. How does combining the world of medicine, business and innovation enable us to make a bigger impact on healthcare and a positive change? I might add. So today I brought the expert on just that today. Dr. Keith Matheny. Yes, you are. So today, as everybody knows, if you're joining us for the first time, welcome, we're so glad to have you. On today's medical sales leader, we dive into the world of medical sales and bring you insights, stories and strategies from today's industry leaders. I'm your host, Claire Davis. And in each episode, we're going to explore the dynamic landscape of medical sales and uncover the latest trends, innovation and best practices that drive success from all angles. So today, I brought in Keith, because we have interesting combination here. So we've got someone who is an exceptional, Vanderbilt trained auto laryngologist with a passion for patient care, and serial business owner. So I'm really excited to have you here. Thank you so much for joining us today.

Keith Matheny 1:21

Thank you, Claire. I'm excited to be here. Awesome.

Claire Davis 1:23

So if I can introduce you really quickly. For anybody who doesn't know Dr. Matheny. He's got an incredible medical practice out in North Dallas. He specializes in Rhinology and sleep and leaves a profound impact on lives. But his journey does not end there. An early adopter of cutting edge technologies and an inventor of groundbreaking medical devices. He's already founded two device companies, septum solutions, and make sure I'm saying this correctly.

Keith Matheny 1:52

By the way, we say logic solutions, we say oh to logic, but who knows, to me logic solutions.

Claire Davis 1:54

That's why I bring the experts, you're keeping me sharp. And he's really revolutionising the en ti industry. So we're going to talk about that a little bit later today, because he not only is helping patients, but also providers in the industry thrive as a whole. He's the founder and chairman and CEO of us EMC partners, and he's pioneering a unique group purchasing organization, bringing significant cost savings to end physicians nationwide by ensuring top notch efficiency. So beyond these medical ventures, he co founded sleep vigil, leading the charge and remote patient monitoring for sleep apnea care and creating new revenue streams for medical practices, as well as a jewelry company. So your impact extends to your community. I know you do a ton of volunteer work, you're always active on LinkedIn. So my question for you is how do you find the time to lead all of these industry changing initiatives?

Keith Matheny 2:51

Well, it's it's busy, admittedly clear, but the short answer is, I could not do any of these things without great teammates, in every aspect you list. That's, that's where it starts and ends. Really?

Claire Davis 3:05

Yeah, yeah, that's it's incredible. We were just talking off camera about, you know, not just incredible teams, we have to that we surround ourselves with, I know you've had a lot of experience hiring and building teams, but also families too. So I'm really grateful to have you here today. And chiefly, the first thing that drew me to you was we had a conversation once. And I think the theme was, Why in the world, isn't there a business class or business like classes for our physicians when they're training? And that's something that I've seen you develop, you know, you've got this real keen eye for opportunity? So my first question really is when you're assessing different opportunities that you want to get involved in? How do you decide which one you're going to go after? And what is the overall reason for pursuing those specific opportunities in the first place?

Keith Matheny 3:59

That's a great question. It's a great way to ask that, you know, I'm at this point in my career, where I am blessed with a lot of opportunities. And the more I learn, and the more I experienced, the more opportunity I see. But what I've learned in my old age is everyone has limited bandwidth, even if you have a lot of bandwidth, it's not unlimited. And so everybody, including yourself is best served saying no to a lot of things in really being wise in what you choose to put your energy into. So for me, I guess my my guiding light my mission statement is what can really help my colleagues in the end the your nose and throat space, and what can really helped my patients have better outcomes. So when I talk about my colleagues, I think about them from a business standpoint, really. You're no wasn't throat and really most physicians, it's a given that they're passionate about patient care. But even though we go to school until our mid 30s, in almost every cases, and that's if you go straight through, many people now go back into health care professions later in life. So they're even further along, but have no business training. So, literally, I did school twice, so kindergarten through 12th. And then another 13 years after that before I was unleashed on my practice, and I never had three semester hours of business 101. And then all of a sudden, were unleashed on these multimillion dollar businesses. And as one might expect, they're not run very well. Typically, we as the physicians delegate, those business management decisions to staff members that have been around the block for 10 or 20 years. And while they may know some things, they also were trained in healthcare, and not necessarily in business. And so many of my colleagues, especially now with the economic factors, I'm sure we'll talk more about that in a second. We just don't have the margin for error to run bad businesses. So when I think about opportunities, what I find myself choosing time and time again, and even some companies that I have on the drawing board for the future, it really centers around that is how can I help my colleagues focus on patient care, which is what they want to do, by helping them run better businesses behind the scenes, taking that off their plate?

Claire Davis 6:37

Yeah, I think one thing I heard you say once was that you're you have this mission, which I think a lot of people are drawn to, especially in this specific field, because you want to make otolaryngology the best specialty from every angle. So can you break open what those different angles are? And what that really means to you?

Speaker 2 6:58

Yeah, sure. So first and foremost, I want our specialty to be the best from a patient care standpoint. So, you know, the devices and technologies that I've invented, or, you know, helped invent with colleagues, or other things that I study and test in help other people bring to market, I want them to result in the best possible patient outcomes. So first and foremost is patient outcomes. Then very close second, as I mentioned a second ago, though, is I want my colleagues, I want the providers to view their own specialty as the best in medicine. And what I mean by that is a specialty that they enjoy practicing, where they have a myriad of tools at their fingertips, to help patients have good outcomes to cure diseases, or to at least improve quality of life. And while they're doing so to make a good living economically, so I'm talking about income here, and also in a reasonable amount of time. So they have plenty of time outside of practicing medicine, for their family, for their hobbies for their own personal renewal. But then it's even beyond the the patient and the provider, right. So I obviously I'm very friendly with industry. So I want the medical device and the pharmaceutical in the technology companies to be just as successful in this space too. Meaning, because of a partnership with these providers, we're able to constantly innovate and improve what we're treating or bringing to patients for their better outcomes. So those companies are also successful. Even the the dreaded insurance companies, the third party payers that usually are the butt of all the jokes. I want our specialty to be the best from their perspective, meaning the dollars that they spend on services rendered by otolaryngologist on their patients yield good outcomes, and they minimize complications or more serious diseases down the road. We care for so many serious things like obstructive sleep apnea, Head, neck cancer, so many things. So I want it to be worth it for the payer. And even from the perspective and Claire you spend a lot of time in medical sales to even from the perspective of who works within the field. So the folks in our offices from the front desk to the medical assistants to the mid level providers and the specialists like audiologists and allergy nurses, but even the sales professionals. So I always have my eyes open when I have an excellent customer service experience at a restaurant or at an airport or who knows where I'm always looking for someone that has that natural talent to see if we could use them I'm in the EMT space. And so I don't know that we've accomplished that yet. But EMT is an amazing specialty already from all of those angles, not because of me, I'm saying because of the collection of people that we attract.

Claire Davis 10:16

And do you feel like this specialty in particular, has more of a runway to achieve this kind of vision than other kinds of specialties?

Keith Matheny 10:26

I do? Yeah. It's a great question to you. I've never been asked that. But I do. Outside of Hypnic cancer, most of the disease states, we take care of our quality of life, rather than life and death. So I really do think that goal is achievable. And while it's not necessarily life and death, sometimes that means it's more expensive, right? When when we're dealing with lifelong diseases, that's very, very expensive for the patient and for the payer. So take a couple of examples. Obstructive sleep apnea, like I mentioned before, well, that's more than just snoring, that's more than just an inconvenience for your bed partner. That's a very serious disease, where you're spending most of the night or a lot of the night with very low oxygen holding your breath, night after night, after night, year after year. So over time, that has health implications head to toe, from high blood pressure to strokes to cardiovascular disease, to memory loss or short term memory loss, dementia. But it also has implications in the short term, drowsy driving, we're really trying to raise the awareness that drowsy driving is just as bad as drunk driving. Well, think about that. And so that disease alone, any innovation we can make there is safe for society, and in much better for the system. Think about something simple, like ear infections, and little kids. You know, when when the child is sick, that can't go to daycare, the parent can't go to work that has major economic implications, and several levels. Think about allergies, and medicine head, you know, it's a common topic for pharmaceutical company marketing, you know, less medicine had more medicine had, well, that employee may be sitting at their desk, but they're not performing at their peak for that company. Think about hearing loss, and what we've seen lately with the correlation with cognitive decline and dementia. And there's 50 or 100, other diagnosis that diagnoses care for by any anti doctor that meet the same criteria. And so, I often make the case when I'm talking about this topic that our specialty is the most economically impactful that there is, because these are chronic diseases, lifelong diseases that tend to have a lot of economic implications.

Claire Davis 12:57

And they certainly lead into so many other complications if not addressed. You know, I think they're, they also sound like some things that people are willing to put up with and live with for too long.

Keith Matheny 13:16

And then, you know, it's really hurting them significantly, in the long run really saw that during COVID, for example, when people were holding on to their cash, or it just evaporated, and people got really pragmatic about what they would spend their money on. So certainly, for a period of time, elective cases were closed. I mean, we as a specialty, were scared to practice our craft early in COVID. We heard all these rumors about well, the virus lives in the nasal pharynx, the back of the nose, and we would hear well, everyone in you know, or in China died after operating on a patient with COVID and Iran. And so you hear all these rumors, I don't know if any of them are ever substantiated. But But after we made it through that, we were willing to perform these kinds of cases, but the patients weren't because their quality of life. And as people were laid off, or furloughed, or you know, basically just cash disappeared for so many people around the world. They put off treating these diseases and that now three years later, it has gotten worse.

Claire Davis 14:19

So for that's so that's so interesting. And you know, it's it's amazing how long people are willing to live with things like that, in truly how much more expensive it can be then to treat it down the line. So if I were to, you know, if I were to put everybody on a level playing field, private practice physicians and those who are in managed care groups, is this kind of growth and business growth and mentality available for everyone or is this really focused just on private practice physicians and groups?

Keith Matheny 14:55

That's a great question. Yeah. You know, when I think of USC and T At that particular company that is a group purchasing organization, which what that is, is a, it's a buying group like Costco or Sam's Club, for example, it's a large organization, we have hundreds, if not 1000s, of doctors that are purchasing together. So we have that buying power to work with industry to bring significant value cost savings, but also new business efficiencies, new revenue opportunities. But the answer your question is that it really only applies to physicians that have the freedom to run their own businesses. So my colleagues that are in medical school situations or work for large health systems or in the military, etc, they they really are more of an employee, they don't have as much choice on these kinds of things. So where I can impact the most I think, is what you're asking is the independent community physicians EMTs, relatively small, there's the best we know there's only about 5000, maybe 5200. Community Physicians like me. So people that are really free and clear, they're practicing in an independent private practice, and make all the business decisions good or bad, make all the purchasing and technology decisions good or bad. They're about there's probably another 5000 or more that are in different settings that don't have that freedom. Mm hmm.

Claire Davis 16:36

And, you know, for those who do have that freedom, I'm sure they like, like any practice are no stranger to, you know, reps coming into the office and partnering to provide the care. And so for this show, you know, many of the folks listening today are going to be in some way touching the medical sales and healthcare field. Do you feel like you have, you know, have you had a good experience with, with, with medical sales professionals? Have you found that opportunity to really partner with people or, you know, how can somebody from this, from these from the medical sales capacity, really come in and be a help to your practice in the business growth of your practice? Is that possible?

Keith Matheny 17:25

Absolutely. By and large, I've had an excellent experience, again, that from the provider standpoint, so being a physician, but also now having three I don't even know how many sales teams I have, I think three as their boss basically is leading them. And what I counsel as I get the privilege of talking to a lot of young whippersnappers fresh out of their six or eight weeks of training before they're unleased on, on selling to some poor surgeon, right? And what I always tell them, I, I spent about 30 seconds talking about the technology they're about to sell. And what I talked about is how you sell it, at least my humble opinion. And that's building a relationship. And it's nothing new to you, Claire, obviously, you did extremely successfully for a long time. And not just building a relationship on the golf course or at happier, I mean, really diving into that physician's business, understanding what makes them win. Right. So there's a lot of people are twitchy talking about the business sides of healthcare, because patient care is a sacred. Our job is different than other professional jobs. What we can do in five minutes, 15 minutes, 20 minutes of our time, we can completely change somebody's life. I'm sitting here in the afternoon, and I think I did 10 to roughly 10 procedures as more surgeries and procedures. Oh, wow. For each of those people. This was a major day in their life. Yeah. And I try never to forget that because to me, you know, a lot of them are now very simple to do. I have a lot of experience. I really try to remind myself every time this is a big freaking deal for this patient. And like this is a scrapbook moment for them when they had their tonsils out when they had their sinus surgery. And for me it you know, it's for my colleagues and I become so routine. So I try to impress upon sales professionals that but even more getting to know what makes these businesses profitable. So I say that that patient care is a sacred thing. But we're not saints and we're not monks and we're not supported by some charitable organization. We run for profit businesses, although many of my colleagues are not Not making a profit. They're not good businesses. And so when the sales rep understands that and ways to make that doctor win in business, that's a, that's what I'm talking about. That's a sticky relationship, whatever widget or technology that you happen to be selling, that's a foregone conclusion, that physician is going to buy that and be loyal to you. Because you're helping them. So let me give you two quick examples of what I mean. First, in the OR, alright, so just because of who I am with all the device companies and clinical trials and things, I have such great relationships. So everybody always wants to dispatch their their people into my or so people make fun of me for always having my entourage but it's, I don't view it that way. I view it as I'm a teacher, like my mother taught first grade for 40 plus years, I view it as being a teacher. And in showing these folks, so much about how the technology I'm holding in my hand got there and why it got there and what's good about and what can be better. But what I have the people that I stood out, if you asked me to list 20 names of the best reps I've ever had, it would be people that understood the whole or, and your husband as a as a surgical pa understands. So when something goes wrong with technology, a rep that can help the nurse and the doctor troubleshoot something that's from a different company, because they care about the patient, they care about that operation, they care about getting done safely, completely effectively. Those people stand out, you know, in my case, I'm doing a complicated sinus surgery, we use powered instruments, we use CT navigation, we use drug eluting stents for use balloon, it's very complex. And what I just listed is probably about six different companies. And so those that can troubleshoot the other technologies for the care of the patient and the physician, those people stand out to me. But then in the office setting, you know, I think of the the sales reps that maybe they're selling something in the sinus area. And so they have the they take the initiative to figure out what type of other specialists like allergist primary care doctors, pulmonologist that would refer patients to me for sinus problems. And they help to build those bridges, they help to build those referral networks, whether it's driving me over their office, in buying some sandwiches. So I can spend 20 minutes with that doctor and say, Hey, this is the latest and greatest technology I have for your patients, I would love for you to send some to me, whatever. So folks that are not directly focused on selling their widget, but they're focused on driving business to me that oh, by the way, I will use their widget in caring for those patients. So they're going to win too. But they're about my entire practice. That's what I try to impress upon medical sales professionals. And we all know the ones that are just purely transactional. And they may be fun. I mean, they may be a really good time on the golf course or at happier. But the ones that I remember from 20 years ago, or I will remember 20 years from now are the ones that did those two things they were about the entire case the patient, and they were about my business.

Claire Davis 23:29

Yeah, that's powerful. And you know, so it reminds me of a story back from when I was in the field. And I was being trained by someone down in LA. And this woman I reference a lot. She's still a dear friend of mine. And she's has that mentality that you're talking about whether it was learned or earned, I don't know. But she's she's just one of those folks who, when there's such a complex and pressure cooker industry like this, it didn't seem to bother her. She didn't have this competitive edge where she wouldn't help beyond her scope. So I remember this one time, we walked into Cedars Sinai. And for whatever reason, there were so many cases that day. In this case, we were collecting tissue for ovarian cancer in the or for diagnostic tests. And there were so many cases that day that we literally burned through all the kits for our test. But there were still women who needed to have a test like ours are similar to ours done. And instead of saying, Oh, no, like we can't do it, we'll have to get you a couple cases and it'll take two days. I've got to run back to my house. The the the surgical oncologist said no, I want I want this done right now and she said absolutely no problem. There's a there's a there's a test from Oncotype DX. We'll go grab it, and I'll help you put it together. That's exactly as a young rep as someone who's green and for anyone listening here who's like that late He was crazy. Here's the thing, find business legal.

Keith Matheny 25:04

Not that she did it for that reason. But no, that made her so much more business doing that one thing, maybe losing one or two cases, got her 1000s of cases later.

Claire Davis 25:20

Absolutely exactly what I'm saying, yeah, it's about caring about what you care about. You know, that could be someone's mom, or aunt, daughter. And that made all the difference. And I loved that. And honestly, I was so so fortunate to experience that early in my career, because otherwise, really, what you're taught when you're just going straight into a sales organization is you're taught how to sell you're taught about your products. But it's almost like you must learn those things in the field. So I love that. I think that's phenomenal, phenomenal advice. So just to recap what you just shared. First of all, be familiar with the entire case, even if you are not the epic trainer for that hospital, but there is an issue and Epic is having a problem. You've never, never ever grabbed that smartphone, start Googling help that off, help them out, right. And I love that you talk about a way that medical sales people can be a real asset by helping you to build your business. And again, the whole point of this is building your business connecting you to referring providers helping you to have a thriving business as a physician means that more people get better health care, right? Greater access.

Keith Matheny 26:43

That's phenomenal. That's the point is, there's no reason that we can't be successful financially. But that's not the central goal. Right? To have better patient outcomes. It's not cutting cost cutting services, right? It's making what you have better. And that's I've never, I've never been able to tolerate reductionist type people that come in and just say, alright, well, we got to cut X million dollars here. So we're gonna do this, this and this, instead of trying to make so many millions of dollars more. And then at the same time, oh, by the way, improving patient care and patient outcomes. That's a that's what it's all about.

Claire Davis 27:26

Yeah, yeah. Everybody winning? Awesome. I absolutely love that. You know, I think that it's really remarkable what you're doing in the industry. I think that this focus you have of growing it to make it a top notch, not just your business, but the industry and the specialty as a whole, by helping with patients, helping providers helping industry connected businesses, like those insurance payers, right. I think it's phenomenal. I think, truly, it's the only way for private practices to grow and stick around and to heal healthcare, as in a broad sense, because if we can support our physicians and people like you who are really building businesses in health care, then it really does help every corner of it thrive. So let me ask you this. If someone wants to find out more about you more about what you're doing way to waste a partner with you, where would you tell them to go?

Keith Matheny 28:28

Yeah, thank you, Claire. I'm very active on social media, specifically LinkedIn. Right. And I have made so many business connections like you. They're in with so many other people. So I'm easy to find on they're very active on the messaging. Usually after I'm interviewed on one of these, I meet some wonderful people every single time, so feel free to reach out there. Of course, you can find me at my practice in North Dallas as well, Collin County, your nose and throat is the name of that. Those two weeks.

Claire Davis 29:01

Awesome. Well, thank you so much for your time today. I know that there is so much more we want to unpack in future episodes. So you guys look out for those because Dr. Martini and I have more to do when it comes to today's medical sales leader. But thank you so much for your time. I know that you're a busy man and surgeon, and you've got a packed day before this and probably after this as well. So we really appreciate you spending the time with us today and really breaking this apart.

Keith Matheny 29:26

Absolutely. Thank you so much. Awesome.

Claire Davis 29:29

And thank you everybody makes sure if you're listening to this episode, go find Dr. Matheny and his profile, make sure you connect with him and support him on LinkedIn. And thank you so much everyone who joined us today for another episode of today's medical sales leader. We'll see you next time.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Transforming Sales and Careers

AI-Generated Transcript below. There may be errors.

Claire Davis 0:02

Hello ladies and gentlemen, and welcome back to today's medical sales leader, a show where we explore the dynamic world of medical sales in the innovative minds shaping its future. So today, I've got a real treat for you because not only is he someone who I've admired from afar, all the way down there and God's green acre but today, he's agreed to come on with me to share everything between his layoff journey, why you need to be paying more attention to the scientific reasoning behind virtual selling, and so much more. So welcome, Matthew Ray Scott. I'm so thrilled to have you on the show today.

Matthew Ray Scott 0:39

Yeah, Claire, I'm like one of your biggest fans. It's an honor to be on here.

Claire Davis 0:43

Oh, my gosh. Well, let me let me brag on you a little bit. Matthew served as an Army officer, thank you so much for your service serving as a captain in the famed 82nd airborne division. And as a psychological warfare officer, upon leaving the military who worked for KOLs Martin, Medtronic, NuVasive, Smith and Nephew and macro macro por BioSurgery. So a lot of the companies that those listening today have either worked for or are interested in so really close to the vest here. Matthew has served in all levels of sales leadership, so that includes VP sales and now his own company after helping to sell or CO sell a biotech company for 16 times the earnings to Medtronic congrats amazing accomplishment. Matthew launch feed, and today Matthew is the principal and Managing Director of feed he was voted number one in the health care agency category by the American Marketing Association. For best cause marketing advertisement national anti awards, prints regional design annual New York art directors club annual and show kleos one show Telly awards Communication Arts design annual AIGA 365. Holy smokes Matthew, What haven't you won with your experience expertise, but his entrepreneurial journey from Army paratrooper to healthcare entrepreneur was featured in the best selling book escaped from the Cubicle Nation. And that is one of the primary reasons I have him on today. Because if there's somebody who I deeply respect, who has not just come up with incredible advertising and sales theories, but has lived through some really tough times to take us from the beginning of that tough journey to today. It's Matthew Ray Scott. So if I may, I would love to jump in here first, because one of the things that if anybody follows you on LinkedIn right now, they will hear you sharing video about is virtual selling. And you guys right before we've jumped on here live, Matthew and I were just talking about how Gone are the days that we will have to really set up meetings with each other, because we'll just start getting more comfortable, hopefully, with video back and forth. So Matthew, tell me about your approach to virtual selling, and also why it's important for people to pay attention to the science, particularly with the amygdala.

Matthew Ray Scott 3:04

Yeah, thanks for that intro, Claire, I appreciate being on here with you. So here's what personalized videos are there. Trust triggers, and COVID, during that social isolation was really a wake up call for most of us. So all of us whether you're in sales, or whether you're transitioning into one career move to another. We're all in the business of engaging, busy decision makers. So COVID hit, we enter into social isolation, and then we get the all clear sign. Now, here's what really happened. We as consumers, we asked decision makers, we reached a point where we were constantly being engaged by email, by voicemail, you name it. What really happened, Claire during COVID is we entered a season where busy people said, Here is the price you pay for being boring. indifference, I'll blow you off, I will not pay attention to you. You are indifferent to me, because you're part of the sea of sameness. So for me, right at COVID I began to explore personalized video. And because I do have that psychological warfare behavioral psychology background, I looked at personalized video as a narrative transportation. How is personalized video received differently than the same traditional measurements that we use? And what I began to discover was that the human brain really can't tell the difference between Claire whether you and I are face to face in the same office, or whether we're speaking to one another virtual life, the human brain can identify I, oh, wow, I feel like I know, Claire, I like her. And I really trust what she has to say, Now compounded by the fact that when you and I send personalized video, we are virtual and time shifted. You see, I can make a video for you seven days ago. But when you receive it today at 7:01am, you feel like I was hyper personalized seven minutes ago, which I was, it's just that, from the time that I created it to the time that you received it. And here's a biggie, on your own time, from anywhere, at any time. So people get it twisted, they think that I'm talking about personalized videos, and that what we teach at virtual Sales RX is all about making creative videos, what we're teaching is how to punch people in the amygdala, create a mental stop sign. With zero editing, we use a $19 a month software called video card, so it doesn't break the bank. And what we're doing is we're decreasing the amount of time that it takes for people to get to know like, and trust us. And you see, trust is our real currency. And our reputation is our bank account. So if you buy into that psychological profile, then Claire, the people that you're reaching out to who need to trust you before they hire you. Why not use a virtual and time shifted measure, with the convenience of this item that we all have in our pocket, or this webcam in which you and I are speaking, why not decrease the time that it takes for them to feel like they know I can trust you. So for me, in closing, I stop asking for appointments. I stopped selling comma. That was for dramatic mental pause there. Comma, I give away my best ideas for free in one minute or two minute, I send it to you Claire, LinkedIn, direct message, email. And I figure if it's a priority and pain point, and it's in alignment with what I do to help remove that pain, you're going to want to talk to me. And that's the theory behind virtual sales reps. And you're right, we've trained over 20,000 people, Claire, from all walks of life, we focus because we were medical sales people. Initially, we created medical Sales RX, to highlight the unique specialty of that we have since brought on 21 people, Claire, to join our team. And we are training everything from interior decorators to psychology practices, to law enforcement, to real estate, to certified financial professionals with the consistent medium of how personalized video decreases know like and trust. So that gives you a walk through there, Claire?

Claire Davis 8:09

Oh my gosh, you know, it's so funny how some so much has changed since the days of selling at the scrub sink, and certainly for those other industries as well. But some things don't change. And you know, if we were to beat a dead horse, essentially, it still applies that we're building the know and the like and the trust. So I love your approach. I think it's really smart. And since I know that you love to give your best stuff away for free. Can you maybe give us a few of the emotional drivers of your prospects or, or why your style of doing video is a little different because I see a lot of people gently dipping their toe into this industry into into this medium of reaching people. But there's an art to it. And I suspect that you have some specifics that you're really reaching for with each of those videos. Can you share more about that?

Matthew Ray Scott 9:01

Yeah, can we start with what does not work first? Yes. All right. Here's what doesn't work. If you say the same lame stuff that you used to say, in your boring text base, that paragraph emails, it will not work just because you show your bright face and eager tonality. It'll fall on deaf ears. So what I mean by that is, is that many of us, myself included coming from medical sales and transit in other areas. We were taught a fallacy. The fallacy is if you err on the side of persistence in persuasion, I can persuade you that what I sell is better. So COVID hits the plague as we know it. Everybody, including you and I gets triple the amount of voicemail messages, text, emails, we are distracted, we are in, disengaged. So now, you and I come along, and we develop what we call narrative transportation. Simply put, add virtual sales or x or medical sales or extra medical people. People think that we're training sales professionals on how to create personalized videos, we are not doing that. Rather, we are teaching people how to send trust triggers at the Speed of Trust. So let me answer your question. Here is what you need to know about crafting a message in one minute or two minute. And then of course, there's variations, you need to start off with a hyper personalized observation. Hey, Claire, I noticed that you're an expert in helping people like me transition from here to there. Hey, Claire, I noticed that you helped out my buddy, insert name, crossed the chasm from here to there. Hey, Claire, I love your podcast, you had a guest. And something that they said in response to your question triggered an aha moment for me. So we start off with a hyper personalized observation. And then Claire, you're gonna love this, we punch them in the amygdala. No one told you and I know that you can punch somebody in the amygdala. Let me give you an example. My favorite way to punch people in the amygdala is to make a pain point statement. It goes something like this in my world. Typically, when I talk to orthopedic surgeons like you, there are two prominent struggle areas that may even keep you up at night. So I come in with a pain point, you know, pain point number one, you're just spending way too much money on traditional marketing. pain point number two, you're trying to be a full service practice, when there's not a patient in America who's waking up looking for a full service orthopedic surgeon. Rather, they're hoping that you can become the specialist in the specialty. So you see what I did there. I entered a pain point. Claire, I kid you not today I sent a personalized video. And for the listening audience, I in no way. Want you to think this is snarky or disrespectful. But it was this simple. Hey, doctor, scratch and sniff. I went to Google and respectfully, you have seven patient reviews. And the highest rating is 3.5. Want to know what your ideal patients are thinking? Question mark. And then I ended with typically if this is a priority or pain point, and it may make sense for you and I to chat you it took me 20 seconds to do that. I think that from the outside looking in people are like, Oh, Matthew is, you know, verbose. Matthew can communicate, when to answer your question, you and I must slay lazy words, you and I must eliminate the dullness of our communications. So to answer your question, what we teach to virtual sales, our ex is how personalized video builds trust differentiates you. And ultimately, we know statistically speaking, Claire, that when you use personalized video, you're gonna get more engagement than the 93% of the market that's sending boring emails. Yes. And so that formula of that's just one formula that we teach in cold outreach. It works really, really well. Not because you and I are gifted communicators. Quite the opposite. The reason why it works so well is you and I focus on how other people want to receive information. You and I focus on how other people want to buy from you and I, everyone else, Claire, they're focused on how can I sell this person something but you and I and the team at virtual sales are actually we don't do that. So hopefully that can help your viewers understand the mindset of a one minute 38 second video

Claire Davis 15:00

That's such a brilliant point. And I love the transition. And it's such a natural one after all of us were apart from COVID. It's almost as it almost felt as if, and I should preface this with I'm married to a provider. So like, having been on the sales side, having having seen him, you know, be approached and sold from from both sides, right and understanding both worlds now. It's almost if COVID gave us some breathing room to finally break the mold of how we were traditionally spoken to, and sold to. And we finally were separated enough, which for better for worse, but we were finally separated enough where we could say, I don't want to, I'm done, I need a break. And so for me, I've watched this radical shift of people like you who are really coaching people to master, not just video, because really anybody listening here, Matthew is not just talking about being great on video, he's talking about understanding from a behavioral engineering standpoint, how people want to be spoken to, and what it is they're actually dealing with, where traditionally, we sell based on what comes down from the marketing, you know, team, which, hey, they they're doing a great job as well. But I'm curious if you think that when it comes to medical sales professionals, and when when they're needing to approach with a specific message that comes down from marketing? Do you feel like those are enough and that representatives or managers typically have what they need for that kind of an outreach touching on those pain points? Or do you think that the hyper personalization piece is something that reps individually need to go after and find out? Like, tell me where, you know, where are people really getting the grit of their message from? Is it internal or external research? I guess?

Matthew Ray Scott 17:05

Yeah. So for the past four years, regarding medical sales. To my knowledge, we have more statistical knowledge than any one on the impact of personalized videos in the medical sales process. Here's what the data points. And here's what my experience on the psychology side of the house points. Now, let me preface this. I've been in medical sales since 1994. I am Ride or Die medical sales. And I'm here to tell you, we are in trouble. And let me tell you why. Medical salespeople are in trouble. If they fall into the following criteria. Your boss tells you the answer is to make more calls. The answer is to get face to face. The answer is to drop off more brochures to glory of the gatekeeper. The answer is the stock doctors at the scrub sink, if you hear that you are in trouble. Now, here's the second parameter. Nobody can argue with me. When we say our doctors over the past several years, busier, limiting access to medical sales reps in the hospital and at the office. Nobody can deny that. So Claire, here is the viewpoint that I get from people like me who have gray hair, and who used to be VP of Sales like I used to be. Here it is Claire. Well, Matthew, there's no replacement and medical sales for being face to face. And here's what I say to my brethren, who is my age? You're 50% Correct. The 100% answer is that we must become face to face at scale. So if you're an old school person, listen to me going up. There's no replacement for face to face. I say Good on you. Because personalized video is face to face at scale. So the intention was never ever to replace medical sales reps with some personalized video that was never ever, ever, the replacement quota, rather, personalized videos, augment and supplement an overall approach. And here's what I know to be true. If you're a sales rep, and if you're listening to me, you know, I'm speaking the truth. You're stuck in traffic, you're dropping off brochures, you're frustrated because your emails are going unanswered. I mean, nobody's gonna fight me on that. But if you're on only option is to listen to a lack of leadership go. Just make more calls, hashtag hustle, hashtag persistence, you're in trouble. And so you got an option, you can try to claim more daylight hours. And there's not enough windshield time or daylight time. Or you can figure out how to be quote unquote, face to face at scale. And that's what we teach at medical sales, or x in virtual sales or x. But I'll share something with you, Claire. And this is my, I'm a medical sales guy ride or die. I'm concerned, the that the people who sign up for medical sales are X. They are frontline people who are in boots on the ground. And in four and four years of doing this, I've only had five VP of Sales ever even inquire about this. So my purpose of this podcast is not to bash former Matthew Scott, a former VP of sales. On the contrary, I'm just answering the question. And I know that you've got a huge following and medical sales. And so I'm not trying to position you against your sales leadership. But I'll ask you a question. How is what you're doing? How's that working for you? Right? And if your answer is not really well, not scalable, not sustainable, then forget virtuals or X, take it off the decision criteria for just a moment, then my next question is, is what are you going to do next? Powerful and I never receive, what are you going to do next answer from? I mean, I don't mean this in a confrontational way. It's just that when I asked that question, I go, Okay, what's your game plan? There is no other game plan other than hashtag hustle, hashtag persistence. Hashtag wait till our new technology comes into play next quarter.

Claire Davis 22:06

Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's, it's powerful. And I feel that the most common thing that I hear, especially from my VPS, and regional directors, who are, who also ride or die medical sales professionals, right? They will say, Well, the thing is that access is impossible. I'm like, Okay, well, what, you know, what is the next step that you're taking? Well, you know, obviously, it's a relationship sale, we really just leverage these relationships. But though those relationships had been established earlier, in the career, the access to develop new relationships is curtailed because of that access problem. So I almost see this as a bot, maybe like a siphoning off of the opportunity that we have to really be face to face and create those new relationships, because eventually, those providers will retire. Right? And so will the professionals who've built the relationships with those providers providing that care. So it really what you're doing is so powerful, and it comes at such a perfect time, because I don't think that in any stretch, physicians or providers are about to get any, you know, less busy. Yeah, the contrary is true. So do you think that there is a certain threshold or a number of outreach, when you talk about scale? Can you give us a little bit of a number around that, that people may be shooting for? What What's that look like?

Matthew Ray Scott 23:49

Yeah, so for your listening audience, I quote unquote, never left medical sales, meaning 13 years ago, I stopped selling hip, knees and spinal implants. And I started selling creative branding for physicians who wanted to be the specialists in their specialty. We've been our agency feed has been doing that for 13 years. And so here's what I tell people. It's not like I left medical sales 13 years ago, and like, I can remember when I was schlepping implants stand and fall on the AOR. Having 272 pounds nurses give me the stink guy. I know what that feels like. I never left that. What I've learned statistically, is in the four years that we've been using personalized video, Claire, I can tell you the data on every video we've ever sent to a doctor. In fact, in preparation for this, let me give you the Cliff Notes. This is just me. This is not my team at feed. This is not Our team at virtual sales reps, this is just me, Matthew Scott. And for years, I have sent 24,563 videos to doctors, not on LinkedIn. I mean, it may not be on LinkedIn creating a video for everybody, but to doctors. I'm averaging a 74.9% attention rate. And so what that means is that out of the aggregate of almost 25,000 videos, when I send it to Dr, scratch and sniff, on average, she or he will watch 75% of that video. Now, here's what that means. I know how to earn attention. And so what I did, Claire was, it's COVID, we're still locked down excetera I began testing this for a full year. Just me and my team at feed. never taught this to anyone. Just let's test this. And we saw the dramatic statistical difference. We 3x increase consultations, when quote unquote, doctors weren't seeing anyone. We have doubled our business year over year. We are super scalable, as you might imagine, meaning we've got clients in China, Europe, Latin and South America, us, you name it. And they don't. And so what I've learned about that is is they don't depend upon me to schedule an appointment with them between the hours of 8am and 4pm. So the only difference is, is I'm using personalized video to tell them what I would have told them if they would have given me the time of day, which we know for a fact that doctors are going to continue to limit that access. So right now, Claire, there is someone listening to us right now. Upon this recording, and they are in a honda accord with 143,000 miles, there's a baby seat in the back with Cheeto stains on the back seat. Yeah, they're stuck in traffic. And they're dropping off brochures to Gloria the gatekeeper. Who will say to them, if Dr. Scratch and stiff is interested, he'll call you back. And so my response to everyone listen to us is not not to be in your face. My response is, What's your game plan? Right. And it works for all of us. It doesn't matter, you know, here, here's what we were not taught. I was on a, I was on an interview this morning with the team from limitless minds and, and David zay is a former striker rap who's now their VP of sales and limitless minds, works with corporate athletes, and helps to create mindset change. And so they were interviewing me today. And so he knows what it's like, you know, knee replacement, hip replacement, etc. And we were and we work with limitless minds. And we were talking through that progression. All we're doing is in one minute or a two minute video, is we were giving away our best ideas for free. And this is impacting all of us. Meaning, it doesn't matter. You could be a local small business owner. The biggest challenge that all of us are facing is the front end of engagement, which is how do I earn attention. And so, Claire here, here's what you've done through your videos, knowingly or unknowingly. These are the videos that you create on LinkedIn. You give us an opportunity to watch you and listen to you and you give us the opportunity to go. I think I know what she's about. Oh, I really like what she had to say about this lesson learned in her life. I can find myself in her story or someone else's story. You know what I trust Claire. So the pathway of know like and trust. Let's get back to medical sales reps has been interrupted. Because that doctor and that glory of the gatekeeper and no doubt about it. That Oh, our purchasing director at the hospital. They are limiting your ACT Yes, yes. And everybody in their brother and sister is playing by outdated rules. And I submit to you that medical sales has not changed since I entered in 1994. And so what are we doing at medical sales, our x, we are allowing trust to be your currency, we are teaching you how to send trust triggers at the speed of pressing send. And that's what's unique.

Claire Davis 30:33

Outstanding. You know what, what I think is really powerful about this, you know, not just the disruption of what has always been done, but that it allows our target, right, it allows whoever we're sending that video to really get to know this. And one of my favorite comments in one of my favorite things is when you do see someone on video, and then you do have a chance to speak with them live or on a zoom. And it's the same person you expected. It's like it takes your level of trust from one to nine, like right off the bat. And I think that it really does allow people to get that sense of who you are, like, we know we can trust Matthew Ray Scott, because he is giving us the truth, and his real perspective. And then when you interview him on today's medical sales later, he's the exact same guy that you saw doing videos on LinkedIn and sending them to your inbox. So it's, it's such a joy, I love that this is transitioning this way. Because if it weren't for people like you to explain and share best practices for creating things like this, to really connect with people again, then there would be decision making would would only be you know, top down, right. And so I think it also really encourages this ability for people like physicians and those directors and those purchasing agents to connect specifically with the person they want to do business with, not just the product, because who can connect with just the product, nobody that lead that's exactly like we were trying to sell back in 1991. So knowing you, and if anybody's not yet following Matthew, please do yourself a favor and connect with him today. Make sure you're following him on LinkedIn. Knowing you, everything you do has a really great core story behind it. And something you spoke about the other day on LinkedIn, if I can shift gears was your own layoff story. And for those of you listening today, if you have been through a layoff, you know that I have been through multiple layoffs. I find it so inspiring. When professionals like yourself, Matthew can take the incredibly difficult situation of a layoff, find meaning in it and choose to move forward. So can you walk us through what your layoff journey was just to kind of share that with everybody today?

Matthew Ray Scott 33:04

Yeah, I'll set the context. First. So part of my bio is I was a VP of sales of a biotech company that we sold for 16 times earnings. And right after that, I went into what I would simply call mini retirement for two years. So my wife and I said, this is awesome. We're going to take and so what I mean to say by that is, we didn't have enough money to retire at the age of 41. But my father, who was an entrepreneur gave me some great advice, which is, don't wait until you're 80 to to retire. And so I took that and said, We're going to create a two year retirement, I went to culinary school and all kinds of quirky stuff. But here's what happened. Claire is my buddy who was the CEO of that company, he flew out to Portland, Oregon, where we were living. And he said, alright, you know, time to bring you back in, we've got this other company. And it was really on the cutting edge of the regenerative medicine space, dealing with cell therapy. And, and I love him. And so that was a no brainer for me to, you know, to do that. And just through the process of this, we had a sales team, a marketing team. And you know, before you knew it, we were 150 some odd people and had a clinical trial that did not go the way that we wanted it to go, etc. And the layoffs started to occur. Now, in my case, no harm no foul, meaning. If you don't have a product to sell, you need to get rid of sales and marketing to so so no heartache there. Right. So Oh, when that happened across the board for us, you know, we have a beautiful office on Torrey Pines Beach and, and you know, so I, you know was laid off. I went straight to lifeguard station number four at Torrey Pines Beach. You know, that's where I go to provide clarity over the years. I mean, we've had a place in San Diego since I don't know 1999 or 2000. And lifeguard station number four always provides clarity for me. So I'm walking along the beach. And, and I refer to it as God. But I felt like God's saying to me, Hey, Matthew, it's not a pink slip. It's a blank page. And Claire, so I don't have the intelligence to think of those words. So it had to be God. And did you know that God speaks in a southern accent? I don't know if you know it or not. I just feel that. I didn't know that. Thank you. Yeah, yeah, no, I just thought I'd throw that out there. In case people are wondering, it was like a Yeah, beautiful southern accent. I honestly, on a serious note, I felt those words. And it let go any burden that I had about, you know, my team being laid off, etc, etc. And so for me, it was the push of the safest place that most of us can be disfiguring out how to create a niche that solves an unmet problem that people will pay you for. And that's when I made the decision. Yeah, I'm not going to work for anybody else, I'm going to take my chances. And that's when I created feed. Now, here's what people need to know, the journey of having a loving push, instead of a nudge is many of you right now. If you are getting ready to be laid off, or you were laid off, and you were taking it personally, you think you were fired, you were not fired. You were laid off, there's a difference. You think, woe is me, when this is a wake up call that goes something like this. If your default is to automatically go, I need to find another job. It's not that that's unhealthy. Rather, it is a wake up call for you to go through a point of clarity that says, I've been given this gift of having a blank page. What will I write on my blank page? And I did that. I, you know, I, I don't know if I've shared this story on an interview before but I've shared it on LinkedIn. I bought a first class ticket from San Diego to New York City. And I bought a moleskin notebook. And my whole plan was I'm flying from San Diego into JFK. I'm gonna step off the plane, stay in the airport, grab a glass of wine, grab a cup of coffee, immediately jump back on the plane and fly back to San Diego. Same day. And when I land in San Diego, that's my action plan. And so I did that. And people asked me like, that's a little bit quirky. What Why'd you do that? Why'd you do it in one day? And I go, because I know myself. I know what a procrastinator I am. I know how I can let logic Go, go out and get another VP of sales job or whatever. There's nothing wrong with that, by the way. But what that trip taught me was symbolically, I was in action. I was in motion from San Diego to New York. Why in New York City because I love New York City. New York City is where dreams go to be made. Now, I never ever left the airport by design. And I hopped back on that plane. And when I landed, it was the 17 hour window that I had some wind behind my back saying you're gonna be okay. And that's when I coined or created for me what I call, I'm going to be a lifestyle design entrepreneur. And that's the storyline behind it.

Claire Davis 39:50

Oh my gosh, thank you so much for sharing that and I could just see you on that airplane. So determinately like, this is it and um You know what Matthew that really strikes me is that sometimes, actually, I'll say it's most times, if not always, when I speak to somebody who has been laid off, so if anybody's listening here has been laid off, and you are going through that dark place, right now that we both know here, right, you're in the right, you're on the right podcast, if you're listening today, and a few weeks later, if you ask them about it, and how they're doing, more often than not, it will be you know what, actually, I'm glad it happened. Because I had been, I had been meaning to make a change, right? What I was doing wasn't fulfilling me anymore. I needed a fresh start. I didn't even know it. And that is such a beautiful story. I could like see you at that lifeguard station for. And I hope that anybody listening today takes this to heart because Matthews, right? It's such an incredible reset, and you really can let your layoff be your LaunchPad for what it is you were meant to do and what you want to do. What I love about, you know, selfishly, people ask me all the time, well, why do you only do resumes anymore for medical sales and healthcare professionals. And the reason is, there is such a dyed in the wool grit and determination with people in this business. And I it first of all, it's completely contagious. So hopping on with people like Matthew Ray Scott, this is why we have so much fun. And we're just chatting on Zoom, right. But what I love about it is that we have for years been accustomed to learning how to market and promote and sell things, products, services, opportunities to our doctors to make them and their patients lives easier. But we almost never remember to do it for our own career. So what's amazing about people in this industry and you in this story, is that you had built up all of that kind of expertise. And then there was this tipping point where you said, Now I'm going to use it for my own good. And yes, hear it.

Matthew Ray Scott 42:07

And here's the part of the story that so that I really feel that, you know, your listeners can resonate with. And so the best part of the story is not? Well, it turned out. Good for you, Matthew, the best part of the story is that nobody asked me, which is, if you have not been laid off, where would you be? My answer is most likely with that company. So the question becomes why? Well, here's the why. Because I was quote, unquote, happy enough that I would have been loyal to my buddy, I was happy enough quote, unquote, because I was making a lot of money, that I would have stayed in the pocket, I would have stayed right there. So what that taught me was literally and figuratively, God knew that I needed to be pushed off of lifeguard station number four, into the deep end. So that I would burn my boats at the harbor. And when I told Claire, my best friends, what I was getting ready to do their response when something like this a Matthew, you got a lot of good ideas. I'm just not sure this is one of them. And, and Claire without breaking confidence, my best friend, a legend and medical device was laid off last week.

Claire Davis 43:45

Oh, no kid, and he called me.

Matthew Ray Scott 43:48

But here's the beautiful part of the story. He called me, my best friend called me, the most unlikely person you could ever imagine. He's a legend. And he got laid off. And he called me. And what he told me was that my experience and sharing with people, the process of being laid off was the greatest career move I ever made. It was the best career move that ever happened he was getting laid off is that he told me you know, outside of the context that we're best friends. He told me, Matthew that laid down a perfect cross the chasm, arch way for me to go from here to there. And so my heart goes out to people that are being laid off. But if you're listening to Claire and I it is a blank page. It is not a pink slip. You didn't do anything wrong. You're not being punished. It is a moment in time, a beautiful pause point for you you to embrace discomfort temporarily. For a season such as this, that's my god.

Claire Davis 45:12

I love it. Oh, my goodness, Matthew, you know. So, after this conversation, I mean, just a couple of the takeaways that I've had from today, because clearly we need around two, because if we're going to talk about specific goal setting, and how that actually helps to advance you to achieving them, and manifesting those, that's a whole other ballgame, my friend. But a couple of things that I hope people really keyed in here today are on the hyper personalization of your content. So if you're sending a video, if you're sending a voice note, really doing that research ahead of time and knowing that you already understand these customers, or if you need to dig deeper, you can, but that hyper personalization and touching on that pain point is going to go so much farther than the traditional video and the script that you were told to follow over and over again. So that's number one. Number two, like Matthew said, if the advice you're getting is to make more calls, get in front of more doctors, please consider that there are other ways that you can better influence your customer and also at scale. So that's a lot of what Matthew really is exceptional at is not just what to say, but how to build a system for that so that you can continue to make that influence at a broader and broader scale with very specific strategies. So be sure to follow Him today and figure those out. And finally, for any of you listening, who have been through a layoff, like I have, like Matthew has had, like his best friend has, know that it's not your fault. It's almost 99.999% of business decision, and one that you would likely make if you were forced to do the same. But it's an incredible opportunity to really recalibrate and ask yourself, why can't this be a moment of peace, a moment in time, where you can reinvent your career and drive it in the direction that you're really meant to go? So, Matthew, I am incredibly inspired by our conversation. I cannot thank you enough for joining me today. And because we're in front of an audience, and I'm hoping this, this will mean you'll say yes. How about a round two? And we talk a little bit more about helping people achieve those goals through that layoff?

Matthew Ray Scott 47:31

Yes, ma'am. Clarity, awesome. You're making a difference. People know like and trust you. You're giving away your best ideas for free. It's a winning formula.

Claire Davis 47:44

Thanks so much. I feel I feel very much the same. And for everyone here today, who is as inspired as I am. Where would you have them find you and reach out to you?

Matthew Ray Scott 47:54

Say hi, and Matthew Ray Scott, you know, you're a good southern boy, when you have a middle name. Matthew Ray Scott on LinkedIn, say, Hey, I follow Claire, I learned from Claire. You know, I saw you or I met you through Claire and just wanted to say hi. So that would be the best.

Claire Davis 48:15

Awesome, thank you so much for your time. Everyone. Be sure to follow Matthew Ray Scott mentioned this show, and we'll see you next week for another episode of today's medical sales later. Until then, take care everybody

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Increase your Visibility and Personal Brand

AI-Generated Transcript below. There may be errors.

Claire Davis 0:03

Okay, welcome back to another episode of today's medical sales leader. I'm your host, Claire Davis. And today I have someone phenomenal with me. I'm so looking forward. This has been in the works for a while. And if you haven't met him already, it's the one and only Omar khateeb. Omar, how are you doing today in that beautiful library of yours?

Omar Khateeb 0:24

I'm talking to Claire Davis. I mean, I couldn't be doing better. What a great intro. I appreciate it.

Claire Davis 0:29

Oh, my gosh, I'm so excited to have you on today. I absolutely love how you've just exploded onto the scene here in the last couple of years, specifically on social media, really trying to make an incredible dent in med tech. And you already are in record time. So if you don't mind, I'll introduce you. And then we can get into really a little bit of your journey and what you're up to today. Does that sound good?

Omar Khateeb 0:50

Yeah. Sounds good to me.

Claire Davis 0:53

All right. So Omar is the founder of khateeb. And Co, a company that helps med tech startups attract investors and grow sales pipelines using social media, and the state of med tech, the number one podcast in med tech. This is true based off a number of reviews, of course, and his incredible following and loyal fans on multiple social channels. And I'm absolutely thrilled. Because not only does he have this incredible mission of making this med tech splash. But Omar has actually made an incredible transition in his career, starting with medical school to what he's doing now. So Omar, can you give for those who haven't met you yet? Can you give him just a little bit of a background on where you were initially planning on starting your career and sort of the journey to how you've gotten here today?

Omar Khateeb 1:40

Yeah, no, absolutely. So I was born and raised in El Paso, Texas. And you know, I have a father who's a who's a general surgeon, private practice, I really looked up and admired my father. And, you know, I grew up at a time where like, being a surgeon was like a big deal, right? And so I wanted to be a surgeon did all the things. And just to be clear, like, I literally went to medical school, some people will say I was in medical school, and then you find it like, No, you're just pre med in college. But I went to medical school in Texas at Texas Tech University, I was on a full scholarship, academic scholarship. And about halfway through, I just realized it was not for me. And I think this is the one thing I tell people in their careers is that, you know, here in the West, we get too hooked up on like, objectivity and data and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, which is fine. But I think we've gotten farther away from like, listening to our gut, or intuition, which is very subtle. It's not driven by ego never gives you the details. It's very scary to follow it. Right. And so when I was in medical school, like, I just got this feeling like, it was like a very subtle nudge, like, You shouldn't be here. And I remember I would bury that voice under like, no, no, no, no, no, because we get scared when we hear that, right. And, and so, you know, long story short, I sat down with my Father one night, and, you know, it was it was a multiple conversation, I talked to him. And I was like, this is how I'm feeling. And I, you know, it was a dream, like, you know, just to just to put people in perspective of how hard you know, first to get into med school, it's like, point 5% of people get in, I struggled with the MCAT. But because of my schoolwork of research, a variety of things, not only did I get in, I got pre accepted, I got full squat. So it's like almost like a rags to riches story. I did all this, and then like, a couple years, and it's like, oh, no, this, this may not be for me. So my father told me, you know, like, look, it's only gonna get more difficult if you feel like this now, like, you're gonna be miserable, and you're gonna make a terrible, terrible physician, you're not gonna help anybody. And so, I left medical school without a plan. That's number one, which I want to tell people, which is sometimes, you know, it's, it's sometimes it's better to have a plan. Like if you're in a lousy job, it's always better to go job searching and transition when you have the job. But you know what life is short. And sometimes, sometimes the best way to learn how to swim is to just jump in the water, and you'll figure it out on the way. And it's very scary to say that, but, you know, when I left, it was like a huge weight lifted off my chest, like huge weight. I mean, I was, you know, I was depressed when I left because I didn't know what to do. I had some anxiety because like, I hate using the word anxiety, but like, my whole identity was built around. I'm going to be a doctor for like, 10 years. That's like, built in my head. And now it's like that, that identity is gone. Right? So it's so so I had no idea. But this idea of the new thing was very liberating is very empowering. Right? And I'd say I went through the exact same process, although I was much more prepared. A year and a half ago when I decided, yeah, you know what, I think I'm done working for other people. And I'm, I feel ready to become an entrepreneur, even though I just like back 1015 years ago, I didn't know, you know what to do when I left school, when I left the corporate world, I had no idea how to make money. I had no idea what my business is gonna be. I just said one day, okay, I'm going to be an entrepreneur. How am I going to make money? Because rents rents do an excellent I live in Southern California and cheap here had a pregnant wife at the time. Anyway, I kind of you know, told that whole thing just to say that, to really encourage people to get in touch and pay attention to their intuition. And the best way to practice your intuition is every single week with little things like, you know, maybe walk into a store and just say like, which way should I go and just kind of fill your fill that out? Or if somebody says, Hey, you want to do this, you want to come to this party? Just answer based on how you feel. Don't even think about it. So that way, you practice things that don't matter. So that when the big things come up, then you make the right decision.

Claire Davis 6:07

I love that this conversation is going this way. Honestly, Omar

Omar Khateeb 6:10

Yeah, most people don't expect that kind of answer when they asked me this question, but I spent almost 10 years really studying and reflecting and analyzing what happened.

Claire Davis 6:20

Right? Well, and you know, probably there was a bit of pressure from you not wanting to disappoint your family like your dad was the surgeon and I mean, there's some pride and was their pride there to where you Yeah, carry on the tradition.

Omar Khateeb 6:33

Yeah, there I had in my mind that we kind of talked like I would you know, become a surgeon Navy flowers and Jen sirs, maybe we we practice together like do surgery because there's like some father son, Duo's like in practice, you know, there's like this whole thing built up, not to mention, like, the community pressure, like I wasn't even vocal paper there, like all, all the all the persuasion needed to prevent me from making that decision. And I think that's the most important thing about, I think, being in business or so the more you understand persuasion, or psychology, the more you understand why you make decisions, why you don't make it, and then at that point, anything's possible in this world. You know, I'm

Claire Davis 7:14

so glad you mentioned that. And it's true. And what I find, at least from the career space, is that often we don't give ourselves that credit of trusting our intuition. Even when things go really bad. I was just sharing a story today on LinkedIn, where there was a there was a company, unfortunately, that had cut commission and also had essentially de incentivize, you know, dissent, advise their their workers, and then said, Oh, nope, in six months, you'll get a raise, but then also took away any overtime pay. So in the end, it was a pay cut. Yet, a lot of these folks don't feel comfortable to make a move. Because in their mind, it's, I've prepared for this, I've studied for this, I'm practicing. Finally, right, I've got my own practice. And they, they took a while to really get comfortable with the idea that they deserve more, and that it is scary, but absolutely worth following your gut. So I really like what you're saying about this. So you know, for for so walking into the grocery store, right? Do I turn right? Do I turn left saying which which party? Do we want to go to? Maybe we're not feeling it that night? What are some? Do you see any other sort of tangible ways that people can evaluate what that next step is going to look? Like? I feel like most people probably result to a like a pros and cons kind of list.

Omar Khateeb 8:40

Yeah. And I know, I don't like pros and cons. Because you're you're you're still biasing yourself. Right? You know, what I? I think that, you know, the whole idea of intuition is getting is and this is like part of sales, which is like, really developing the skill of curiosity, right? And really digging in to get to the source of truth. You know, sometimes when it comes to following your intuition, like, I'll have conversations with people, and sometimes you need somebody to tell you like, Oh, this is exactly what you should do. Great. But a lot of times when you're in the in a in a moment of discovery, all you're just trying to do is get exposure to ideas. And sometimes when I tell and I got to credit him because I've been using a lot, Todd Zog who's really well known sales, sales trainer and in our industry and everything. When I first reached out to him, I was getting some advice from him. And he and he told me something great. He's like, look, I have no advice to give you but I have a lot of ideas. And I think that's, I think, yeah, I think that's what people should be looking for sometimes is that sometimes the best person to decide what you should do is you right, and especially in the world today, like soft like 1020 years ago, like the world in the market is changing so fast. It's it's tough to actually know what's going on happens sometimes, like, getting the ideas of what direction you should go like, you're better off going in the right direction really slowly then in the wrong direction fast.

Claire Davis 10:10

Yeah, brilliantly said and you know, it's funny because often when someone comes to attraction resume so you guys out there you know we have we write resumes for medical sales professionals. Usually the conversation goes something like this. Hey, Claire, what do I have to do on my resume to get this job that I want?

Omar Khateeb 10:28

Yeah, you're looking for like a little shortcut? Like the one thing? Yeah. And it just, that's just not the world we live in?

Claire Davis 10:34

No, it there's no tip or trick. It's specific to what you want. Next, it's specific to your individual path and what you're bringing forward. So I always surprise, I think I surprise a lot of people when my first reaction is, well, what is it you want to do? Because sometimes they don't even believe that that is what we can go after. They think like, well, what who would settle for me? Who, yeah, who would take a chance on me right now? But I'm like, no, no, no, let's back up. Because you have a ton to offer. It's what you want. And that intention is incredibly powerful, toward getting what you do what?

Omar Khateeb 11:12

Absolutely. And like, yeah, you know, I'll say something like, I'm a big proponent, I learned this, fortunately. I mean, I feel like I've learned or too late, but not too I learned it later than I should have, but early enough that I benefited so but I really encourage people like work with professionals, like you and your in your company are professionals that packaging individuals essentially, right? Yeah. And like between the resume the interview and everything, like you're essentially creating a package like a wrapper for the product. And so I think that's really important, just like, Who do you want to be? Because that's the package we have to create. And again, like, could someone go and figure this out on their own? Probably the problem with that is that when you're doing this on your own, even myself, as much as I meditate, I do mindset stuff, obviously, I still spend money on coaches or surgeon, everything because I need somebody objectively to help me manage my own personal biases, and helped me figure out the direction I need to go. Like, even now I'm an entrepreneur, there is a service I pay where every week, I'm reporting to somebody that my projects for the week, and we talk about why am I doing those things, because when you just sit and try and do it yourself, like, you know, all kinds of things come up, you bias yourself the wrong way. And so you need somebody to kind of objectively stand back and kind of help you create that wrapper of who you want to be, and then say, Great, this is how you go sell that, that product to all these other people. Right?

Claire Davis 12:40

You know, exactly, that's such a perfect way to put it. The I love that packaging piece, it is about creating the brand, right. And I think that something that's been, at least in the last five years and incredible shift in the medical sales industry. And I'm sure everybody listening here, especially if you're on LinkedIn today, you are definitely seeing this in the marketplace is that it's becoming more important than ever to have a personal brand. And that's one thing I do I think that you do exceptionally well. So can you talk a little bit about from your perspective, how the market has evolved, and now required people to become greater than a commodity in this business? Because as we'd like to say, you know, you are a category of one, all it takes is great branding. But otherwise, you know, I think the moniker is if you can sell one thing, you can sell anything. But the thing is, actually, when you're known for something specific, like the incredible brand that you've built, Omar, it's it's like it'll catch fire for you. So can you talk on what you've seen?

Omar Khateeb 13:47

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And just to kind of prep prime this because, you know, people hear about the importance of having, let's say, an online presence and all this. I'm going to take it from a literally a page from this book that I'm going through. If you're interested in venture capital, there's one book you should get, and it's more of a textbook, but it's Hendre, Rama Ram Singh, or I'm seeing harneys, which is the business of venture capital, and so on getting into venture capital, right, there's Who is David Cowen, who is one of the VCs out of Silicon Valley, so we're talking about getting into venture capital, right? He even says, I'm reading from here during the Cold calling a venture capital firm rarely works, especially in the modern day. I don't think that approach will work today, the business is much more complex and competitive, warns David, what might work is a web print presence. And then they go on to explain that like Union Square Ventures and a few others, like they don't even take resumes. Their thing is just like have a web presence, meaning anything we can go visit via URL, LinkedIn, profile, blog, etc. Right? So like, if that's what it takes to become a venture capitalist, like, it's going to be the same for so many other things. Right. You know, and so, I think You know, the human brain was never designed to separate things, right? Like the human brain hasn't evolved in 1000s and 1000s of years. So like the digital world that we communicate and work through versus the physical, it's all the same thing. Similarly, all of us have been influenced by by Amazon and COPPA, specifically Amazon. So if we're going to buy something, let's say like, for me, I bought a lint actually is a great extent, I bought a lint roller a few months ago, like lint roller, it's just a lint roller, Claire. But when I went on Amazon, here's what when it's my decision. I'm like, how many reviews? Does a top lint roller have? How many like what pictures are there, like media, because different things of persuasion that persuade me so for me, I just want to see lots of reviews. And like a few pictures, some people want to see like videos of P other people using it at cetera. But all of those points of persuasion are on one page. And people make those kinds of decisions 235 10 times a day, as consumers, do you really think that that let's say hiring manager becomes a completely different person consciously when they start evaluating people via resumes or LinkedIn, it's the same thing, which means if they land on your LinkedIn profile, right, is like nothing there. That's not persuasive. Right? On, you know, on the on the other side of it, like, Okay, why is it that we put we want to have like, you know, big numbers, this is all points of persuasion. Right. And so I think the importance of having a web presence is that why not have that persuasion done? Right? The moment somebody goes, visits, your LinkedIn profile versus you having to apply, you send in the resume, hopefully, they look at it, right. And again, like, those things are, are the same, right? So a lot of people, what they'll do is like, they'll spend money to get, you know, help with a resume. And that's not think about how do you translate that onto LinkedIn, I'm like, Well, you have to do all this work, still to get this thing that you paid money for on somebody's desk that needs to be translated online. That's right. You know, and again, like, you know, I feel like, the time that most people put a resume together is when they're looking for the job, which is the wrong time to do but if you do it at that point, you shouldn't be doing it on your own, you should be hiring somebody to help you with it. Because, you know, you can spend a lot of time figuring that on your own, but who, how long is that going to take you? Are you going to do the right things?

Claire Davis 17:32

You know, there reminds me of Batman

Omar Khateeb 17:34

I may have like, not answered your question directly. I think I want a tangent there. But you know, that's okay.

Claire Davis 17:38

That's how I love talking to you, you have a ton of insight here. And it's clear, because you become the king of visibility on LinkedIn in a field that

Omar Khateeb 17:48

I own that algorithm.

Claire Davis 17:50

I love it. And that's, that's so it's, it's, it's, it's an art. But you know, like any great marketing strategy, we can't go in it with just one tool in the toolbox. It can't just be your resume. Oh, yeah. It's got to be your networking, your LinkedIn, your cover letter, your outreach, it can't just be going into a physician's office to sell a product. And just hoping you're there on the clinic. Yeah.

Omar Khateeb 18:16

I mean, yeah, exactly. Look, I mean, I tell people, people don't want to hear this, but it's the truth. Like, look, if if XYZ random, like there's a there, what did I buy recently from Instagram, something from from my gym? It was like a $20 decision. Okay, that 20 Does dollar decision involved, like a lot of content, this company retargeted me with different ads, like it was a social proof ad showing like some fitness influencer using it, then there was like some other and finally about that's to make a $20 decision. Do you really think that you need just just a like a basic resume for $100,000 decision, which over the span of like three to five years? That's like a three to $500,000 decision. Right, right. Not to mention the impact on the business. So it's like the buying cycle is so much more complex. People have changed, the markets have changed, right? It's more, it's just more, everything's more competitive. You know?

Claire Davis 19:11

Yeah, so true. Okay. So speaking of that, something that's, you know, emerged now and is just still barely comforting to people who are trying to add these different things into their arsenal when they're looking and trying to get more visible for their career. Podcasting, podcast guesting. So can you talk a little bit about sort of how you have found this to be a really great, maybe visibility multiplier, or maybe if there is a threshold that you should reach before even going on a podcast? Can you talk to us a little bit about that?

Omar Khateeb 19:47

Yeah, no, definitely like what I would say, I'll use my like mentor from afar as advice, Seth Godin, which is like, pick yourself, like don't wait for other people pick yourself. And so I don't think There's, you know, some people, they have this like imposter syndrome, which is like, oh, I need to do a certain amount of things before I can go on a podcast, if somebody thinks you're good enough to be on their show, that's enough, right. And I would say also that you should, you should find ways to just, if you have a great story, if you think you can help people, you should find ways to make your way onto a podcast and share that story. I mean, believe it or not, like, on my own show, I'm more interested in interviewing, like younger reps who've, let's say, want a President's Club, or they, you know, they've hit their quota achiever for like, a couple years in a row. I'm more interested in interviewing those people than a lot of CEOs of companies, because those people have like, new and very tangible and practical advice. And I think that you never, we always take for granted the things that we know. And then we, you know, we don't think about how valuable it is like there's people who would pay money for that. Yes. That's, that's, that's the crazy thing. Right?

Claire Davis 21:01

Well, you mentioned earlier that the coaching that really has helped you, everyone, I think that was one of the most startling pieces of advice that I got early in my business was get a coach and I thought a coach like, Well, what exactly for and like, Will that really generate results. And by the way, these coaches are expensive, but every single time that I've hired somebody to coach me, in a certain area of my business for life, I've had 10x results. I know that's overused, but like, incredibly, incredible traction wherever I was trying to get it, because I had that sort of spearfishing mentality. Like, let's, let's, let's execute that thing. And the one that you reminded me of was, I hired a coach for video, and she was, I'm gonna guess, 10 years younger than I was. And it was so refreshing because her approach was, like, none other that I had ever heard. And it was so fresh, and she was up to date on all these things I was missing. So I love that you're, you're highlighting these people who are early in their career, because often, they haven't had the chance to go to their 20, you know, NSM and learn sales strategy that they will only use and it's just baked in. And that's how they'll always do it. They're still creating and in and creating their own way. I think that's really powerful.

Omar Khateeb 22:27

Yeah, and I think I mean, I hate to say so our industry, like every industry takes on the psychology of their customer. And the psychology of our customer in this industry, let's just say specifically surgeons that most surgeons have pretty big egos. They think they know everything. Right? And understandably. So, I mean, if I have somebody operating on me, I don't want a surgeon who doesn't have confidence I want like, in some ways, I want a surgeon with a god complex. Yeah. Cuz like, I don't want them second guessing themselves. But then our industry kind of takes that on. And I see too often where like, it's usually senior leaders, where because of somebody's age, or experience or whatever, they they devalue that advice, you know, or they're like, Oh, what am I going to learn? Right? And I think it's just such a mistake. And it's funny, because like, I've dealt with senior leaders like that. And on the on the same token, I have leaders like, like Joseph Othman, who is a legend coming out of Intuitive Surgical. I mean, I The list goes on of like high caliber individuals who have sought me out for advice and paid me for engagements, because they're like, you like, this is something I don't know. And you're good at this. I need help. Right? I think, you know, the age thing, the experience, all the matters is results. All the matters are so like, I'll give you a great example. Since when is it? I hope you can you hear my kid in the background? I hope you can't hear?

Claire Davis 23:57

I can't now. Okay, great, right? Oh, perfect.

Omar Khateeb 24:01

Yeah, I have my I have Yeah, as long as you can hear this. So I'll give you an example. Just again, because I like to use these examples with people can really have tangible things. Since August of last year, I pay $1,500 a month for this group that I'm a part of the group gives me access to this library of content that I rarely use a telegram messaging app where we're all in there in a group. Every Saturday, we have a call and there's a certain topic covered and then there's one on ones with the main guy and then we have a quarterly mastermind, okay, okay. The only thing I use this group for is those Saturday calls, which a lot of them are just like, questions to the main guy and then I go I fly to Miami for the in person event. The guy who runs this is 28 years old. He's almost 10 years younger than me. Okay? But you know what? Very simply put, he's made more money than me. And he's been doing it for a lot longer. Yeah, that's that that's enough for me like, yeah, I should listen to this guy. And a lot of times people are like, man, you're paying 1500 bucks a month is like, what do you get out of it? A lot of times, some there's some some very tangible things I've been able to apply to my business. A lot of times it's, it's the energy. Sometimes it's worth paying money. I think actually, oftentimes, it's worth paying money to get your mindset and energy changed. So you can take radical bold action, confidently. Right. Right. That's, that's the thing. It's like, if you're gonna go fight, like if you're gonna physically fight somebody, right? And you keep getting your butt whooped. Right to take a turn. Yeah. Like, wouldn't you? I mean, aside from learning, let's say the tactics and strategies of how to fight the stance, everything. Don't you also want a coach who's going to kind of instill some confidence in you, and kind of like hype you up. Like, if you think about the great coaches in football and sports, everything. Yeah, it's their strategy and tactics. But a lot of those they instill this level cops like custom motto with Mike Tyson from the time that like he was super, if anything, the thing that costed for for for Mike wasn't just a strategy and coaching he was a boxer is that he literally instilled in us that he's like, You are a world champion from the age of age of 16. And by the time he's 18 years old, he's world champion, youngest world champion ever. Right? That's worth money. Yeah, a lot of times, you know, and I'll just say this one analogy, and I'll, we'll kind of move on. But I tell people, whether it's whether I'm getting coached, or I'm helping somebody right coaching, advising, where you want to call, it's kind of like you're in in your mind, there's a dark room, you're trying to find a light switch, you cannot find it, the coach is going to help guide you, right? To flip on that light switch. And the sooner you find that switch, you're gonna flip it on your car, you're gonna see books, you're gonna see all these things that have always been there. Maybe you'll find that light switch. But because you're distracted by all these different things in your life, like it might take you years, decades, right? That's how I like to think about coaching and advising.

Claire Davis 27:11

Yeah, well, I know. I can't I can't stop thinking now about like the Elan and Zuckerberg match coming up. I'm wondering what George St. Pierre has,

Omar Khateeb 27:21

I hope that I hope that actually happens seriously, like at this, there's so much hype. Now that has to happen.

Claire Davis 27:28

I think it's a it's now movement, we're all going to demand it. So I think that's a really great point about the the guide, right? So if you I know one of the things that you're passionate about, that I really like is that you're helping people in med tech to leverage social media to really make inroads with their customer and do it in this new and fresh and approachable way. So when it comes to selling with technology, or social media, there are a lot of different kinds of coaches and different kinds of areas for growth there. So if somebody is ground floor, they've just, you know, say they're say they're a rep, and they've been coached through consultative selling, hopefully, maybe even challenger selling, who knows. And they're like, Okay, Omar, but where do I start? Like, who was the coach that I need? First? Where would you send them? Well,

Omar Khateeb 28:22

I mean, I'm biased, I would send it to myself. So and here's, here's the, I'll tell you, I'll tell you the reason why. I wish I wish there's other people that I could recommend, but I can at the end, the reason why is that this is such a new thing that most people haven't spent the years that I've put in and the gotten the data quantitative and qualitative, to understand what works and what doesn't, right. You know, but I think like, you know, the probably the easiest place to start, I mean, if people go to my LinkedIn profile, there's a, there's a mini course that I have. And it's, I think it's discount if they just click the link that's on the top of my profile, they can they can get access to it. But, you know, I would, I would, personally, I would start there. And if anything, like, you know, there, there are ways to I think that every rep it's to their benefit to say, to try and understand what is it take to get a project implemented in my organization, and to get buy in and everything, you know, because those are other ways that I'm able to engage with people. You know, that being said, you know, outside of that, like you know, there's there's a lot of content like I on my own podcast or even on my on my instagram handle, which is a medical sales was called All hail medical sales. You know, you can get a lot of ideas from there. But what I would say is like, at the very least you can, you got to ask yourself, Okay, do I have access to my customers on a daily basis? No, weekly, maybe. Okay, where are they spending most of their time? A lot of them are spending more and more time on LinkedIn and Twitter is every physician on there absolutely not. But even if you don't have any of your customers, let's say on LinkedIn, there's still a significant amount of physicians in every single category, spending time on LinkedIn posting content cetera, use LinkedIn as a way to digest clinical content, learn about the latest things that are going on technologies, procedures, approaches, because then when you talk to your physicians, you have something else to talk about than just pitching your product. You have to think you know, that's the thing that people have to they, they there's an art and science behind getting meetings and doing demos. And it shouldn't be just be about your product. We talked about consultative selling nobody, very few people actually do consultative selling in our, in our industry, it's more just pitching products. And so you have to think about it and say, well, this package of me Jane Doe, or Johnny doe, or whoever, how do I make this appealing enough that that surgeon even if they're happy with their product, they're like, Yeah, I'm going to spend 30 minutes with this person, because I know it'd be a good use of my time, because they're entertaining. The eye education, I'm gonna get something out of it, or they I know, they're gonna pitch my product, but I just want like, I think that'd be good use of my 30 minutes. That's what you have to get to. Because like, it's on rare occasion that you have just a killer app, a killer product that like people are just like, you know, dying to get a meeting with you. It's rare for that to happen. You know what I mean?

Claire Davis 31:26

Yep. I was talking to Rebecca Kenny, on a previous episode, if you guys want to check it out, I'll put it in the show notes. But I think it's in the teens. And, you know, she mentioned that there aren't a lot of fresh products being created, not as many as there could, but there are, there is a large number of MI two products. And I mean, for good reason and understanding the enterprise sale and how that works. That's great. But you're right. Sometimes it's really not enough to sell on product alone, it's got to either be a really deep understanding of what the pain points are out there. What is there a pain quotient big enough to make someone turn their head to what we have in our bag? Or are they going to want to do business with Omar? Because it's Omar? And of course they are? Because you put a time in there, you know?

Omar Khateeb 32:18

Yeah. And again, like, you know, you talked about the pain cushion, like to figure out the paints are dealing, you have to have a conversation with them. You have to and so like if they're not interesting, your products, how are you gonna have a conversation and like, you know, this is where these like, really cringy tactic comes up of like, stalking them in the cafeteria, or like, let me go talk to us. Like, you know, there was a time where selling it, the scrub sink would work. Because the doctor had enough leverage. So yeah, like, I'll let me use your stuff. Next case like it. Sometimes that works, but it really does. And so you got to think like, a little a lot more creatively of like, Where can I create those opportunities for discussion? And then again, what I tell reps all the time, like, okay, let's imagine you're you walk in the elevator, and the surgeon you're trying to sell to is there, the elevator gets stuck? Neither of you have Wi Fi? And so like, you're stuck together for like, three hours? Like, if they just start talking, are you going to just start talking about your product? No. So you got to think of something else interesting to talk about, to demonstrate your knowledge base, et cetera. And a lot of is like, like, there's no magic formula. Like I have people who's who apply for my course. And they want to like for my larger course, the medical sales narrative effects program, because they're thinking it's gonna be like this panacea, magic bullet? And I'm like, No, this is there's like, no magic bullet here. It's just, it's, it's a discipline of how do you keep yourself educated and enough, you know, knowledgeable enough that a surgeon looks at you as close to appear as possible. And they're willing to talk and open up and say, Yeah, you know, these are the pain points I have, this is what I want to do with my practice. And now you actually have some to sell through and now you know, like, how to actually convert them and change their behavior, you know, versus, you know, what does every rep do? They they finally get a meeting, mainly because the surgeon is just like, fed up was like, let me just take this meeting to get them, like, away from me. Yeah, they're gonna, they're gonna watch you pitch your product, you're gonna throw a bunch of stuff up on a slide, hope that something sticks, and then like, you're gonna keep pestering them afterwards, and they're gonna go Stu. Like, it doesn't work. So why why keep doing it? You know?

Claire Davis 34:29

Yeah, that's such a painful way to go. And, you know, in the end, people are people and they want to work with people they like and some of my favorites. Some of the favorite things I've heard from my reps, who, especially those who've gotten up to regional VP level, is that they'll say something like, you know, I've gotten to the point in my career where the surgeon is looking to me for answers in that moment, because we can all only know so much and so they trust when you When they've built that relationship enough, through being invested in these people as people, right, it takes taking people off a pedestal, investing enough and doing the research and getting to understand the clinical nature of what you're doing to a point where you can be an incredible asset in that or, and you can break out of this sort of, you know, slimy feel like I think, I think the the whole idea of the scrub sink, pouncing on people in the locker room, so on and so forth. I mean, it's a big transition, but it's a really important one. So, okay, so tell me this, if someone wants to find out about one of or all of your incredible programs, you mentioned a few of them today. Where should they go first?

Omar Khateeb 35:50

Yeah, and I actually just updated this. So used to be that you have to apply talk to me or one of one of my sales reps. And then you get into my program, I gotten to a point where I've kind of decided to sort of open up. And so if you go to my website, khateeb, and CO, that's kh ATEP is boy, a n d co.com. And look under the webinars, you know, you'll be able to watch a webinar and you're gonna learn a lot from the webinar. But right there, you can actually purchase, purchase a course. And for people who watch that webinar, I incentivize the behavior. So I actually have a discount add on there, just FYI. So that's one place, just go to my course, to my website, I think that's like the number one place to go and check it out. And then other than that, like, what would I really recommend to people to do is like, follow my podcast, the state of medtech. I mean, you there's, there's categories on there from venture capital investing, to leadership to sales. And then if you're a rep, and I just found a recently, a lot of VPS, follow me, which I was kind of surprised to hear, but like on my instagram handle all hell medical sales, which is really just sales, tips, and motivation and memes. So like a lot of memes. I post a lot of the stories there, I take questions, go follow me on there, you know, and I interact with people a lot, you know, awesome. So like, it's not, it's not hard to find me on the internet, you know?

Claire Davis 37:14

Good. And we in a way guys will for everybody listening today and watching. Thank you so much for joining us. I'll make sure that we link to everything Omar mentioned in the show notes to this episode that you could find those super easy because if there's one person to follow, to use as a in person or a foreign mentor, is that where you want a mentor? Mentor? Yeah, mentor from afar? Yeah, far. I like that. You know, it's definitely Omar. He's doing big things in this industry guys, and making it a lot of fun, too. I'm sure you can tell. So Omar, I'm so appreciative of the time. And hopefully we can do a round two here in the future. I know you have a ton to share, and new stuff coming out all the time. But we really appreciate you being with here being with us here today.

Omar Khateeb 37:57

Absolutely. Claire was such it's such a blast. I'd love to come back. And yeah, always appreciate what you're doing. And again, if your audience isn't doing already, like I do recommend that they follow your stuff, too. Because your content is great. I always learn from it. So I hope they're doing the same thing.

Claire Davis 38:11

Thank you so much. Hey, we've got to stick. We've got to stick together in this crazy industry. So thanks. Thank you so much. Thank you everybody for being here today. We so appreciate every single one of you who joined us for this episode. And if you have any questions, feel free to hit us up in the DMS and until next week, have a wonderful one. Thanks Omar.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Bridging the Gap within the Medical World

AI-Generated Transcript below. There may be errors.

Claire Davis 1:40

Hello and welcome back to another episode of today's medical sales leader. I'm your host is Claire Davis. And today I have someone very exceptionally interesting with me today someone who really is the combo of the clinical side and the strategy side and the entrepreneur side. So it's none other than Spencer Jones. And today, I am absolutely thrilled to have him joining me. So thanks for joining me today, Spencer.

Spencer Jones 2:06

Well, thanks for having me on here, Claire. I'm thrilled and honored.

Claire Davis 2:09

Awesome. So let me introduce you really quick. And then we're going to get into the tough stuff because I know that you have a ton to offer this space and I cannot wait to dig into that with you. So if you haven't met Spencer yet, after working as a nurse, he became frustrated with the inefficiencies that he experienced and was determined to improve the delivery of health care, which I think we can all relate to, especially today. And in 2014. He won the Ark challenge business accelerator with his patent, dual lumen peripheral IV want to make sure I get this exactly right. It's called be VAT. Is that what you call be bad? That's right. Yeah. And it focuses on painless and uncontaminated blood draws. So in 2015, he patented his second device safe brake vascular, which I think I just saw you post about just the other day, and he then founded Linnaeus medical where he successfully ushered safe break through de novo clearance well done, as well as the FDA double win. And Spencer is currently the CTO and VP of sales at lap of patients, a laparoscopic surgical device company. And in his spare time, he consults for Life Science startups in the orthopedic space. So he enjoys mentoring early stage ventures and playing golf when he can. So I mean, if that's not enough, what don't you do Spencer, baby, we need to have a show on that. But I'm, I'm absolutely thrilled to have you here. Because one thing that stood out to me was when it comes to healthcare, and the real innovation that is here. I'm inspired by people like you who have a clinical background and the entrepreneur background and know how to leverage it to not just make great products, but make great things happen with those products. So can you share a little bit about what kind of perspective you're able to bring to this industry because of your background as a nurse? So you've got the clinical and entrepreneurship?

Spencer Jones 4:07

yeah, and those great question. You know, being a nurse shaped pretty much everything and I still reference my nursing now nursing knowledge in virtually everything I do, from product development, to sales to marketing. You know, I never had the itch to do entrepreneurship or med device innovation at all, I was thought I was going to do anesthesia. You know, it's what my dad did. I thought I was gonna follow in his footsteps. You know, but but, you know, I've said this before, I think nurses, you know, particularly have a really good skill set that is largely adaptable for entrepreneurship and innovation. You know, they have to think, think on their feet are constantly solving problems. They have to work across interdisciplinary teams with respiratory techs and physicians and you name it, but I think you know, when to be a good nurse, you really have to have an understanding of anatomy and physiology, pharmacology pharmacokinetics you have to know how to use these devices, and even stuff that you're not tasked with, you know, necessarily doing yourself, you still have to have a really good understanding of. And so I think all of those things gave me a really, really good foundation, you know, to step into a med device world and, you know, all the clinical stuff, you know, to me is easy. And I did have those a steep learning curve learning the business development and finance and, you know, the accounting and all that stuff that goes along with innovation and entrepreneurship. But it, I'd say, in short, you know, my clinical background, as a nurse gave me that foundation of, you know, understanding all the different kinds of healthcare delivery, you know, rehab, inpatient, outpatient surgery, all all of those different care areas, as well as kind of the anatomy and pharmacology and a device knowledge that you just have to know, as a nurse.

Claire Davis 5:50

I feel like the nurses I know and have met, you know, been fortunate enough to even receive care from, they tend to see the details that other people miss, because there's the greater goal and the protocol. But the nursing staff are the ones who are getting the real time data, and then leveraging what they find and often uncovering those things that other people aren't necessarily seeing, because they're not quite so close. So I'm so grateful that people like you are involved at the ground floor with products like these, because I know that you're thinking of it as such a to such an in depth detail. And it's, it's really exciting to see that. When did you first think, you know, I want to take my clinical acumen and pair it with sales and business development and create something or, or I saw that you're involved in some of those, kind of like Innovation Roundtable groups. So when did it shift for you? And you're like, Sorry, Dad, I'm not going to do anesthesia. I think I've got this other path.

Spencer Jones 6:49

Yeah, no, I mean, it, it didn't happen kind of all at once, really, I started to kind of tinker around and, you know, draw things out and talk to some people way smarter than me and get some good advice from them. And, you know, I was, you know, had done the completed the art challenge accelerator in 2014. And was still working full time as a registered nurse doing the night shift on a med surg floor. And, you know, I did not have a trust fund and was not like independently wealthy, I was 24. And at the time, nurses back then I think I started out around 20 bucks an hour. And so like, I couldn't quit my job, right. And even after I'd gotten some of that seed capital from the accelerator, I was not ready to take that leap. Yet, I'm pretty risk averse in a lot of ways. And so once I got into that next accelerator called zero to 510, that was May of 2015, they told me this, and that was 50k of initial capital, right. So there was that a little bit of that safety blanket, I knew some of that would, would be able to go to supporting me, you know, via salary. But they told me that I had to move to Memphis full time for three, three and a half months to do that program. And so that was kind of the you know, you know, water get off the pot moment, right? I remember when that accelerator program was over, I was like, the knowledge I have now on dangerous, I realized kind of like, you know, having that clinical skill set, and then learning all the stuff about innovation and entrepreneurship that I did, that I kind of held a really unique set of skills, right? You don't have to be the best at one thing. But if you're really, really good at a unique combination of those, you can be a, you know, a pretty versatile athlete in terms of, you know, business or innovation professional. So that was, you know, in the end of 2015. After that accelerator, that's when I said, Okay, this is what I want to do for the rest of my life, I think.

Claire Davis 8:37

Yeah, yeah, no kidding. I mean, you're, you're on fire with it, then. So you mentioned mentors, who were some of the formative people who you met maybe early on, that got you really interested in continuing to pursue it. Because in my experience, it's not just being exposed to this kind of business accelerator. It's like getting in with that circle of people who are just as passionate as you are.

Spencer Jones 9:02

Yeah, no, I mean, it's a great question. There is like, Sir, there's so many. I'll say, you know, everybody at the venture center, innovate Arkansas. You know, Mike Smith, Ted Dickey, those are the entrepreneurs support organizations around Arkansas, startup junkie, Jeff and Mariah and the entire team there, they were really instrumental in kind of that initial like, Hey, you have something here. You know, we believe in this you should keep running with it. Right? Because people are having that confidence in you. And not blind confidence, right? They need to tell you, Hey, you should shut this down. But then having that constant competence in me was huge. When I went to Memphis though, you know, James Bell, Allen Daisley, they were running the program, you know, Jordan Nickleby. He was one of my first hires an engineer believed in me it was huge to have somebody kind of alongside me doing it you know, Matt Cox on the IP list delay, you know, kind of taught me the legal ropes a bit Jamie few get through Is my counsel initially and then honestly, on, you know, a whole host, like too many people to count from that point on. But you know, and Don Norman, with regulatory she's a partner at MRC global, but it was just this cast of characters that I can lean on for whether it was regulatory IP, you know, bizdev legal. And just having those people kind of in my wings early on was huge.

Claire Davis 10:27

Mm hmm. You know, kind of down the same vein of mentorship. I think that nowadays, people have come around to the idea that if you want to grow, and specifically in this arena, mentorship isn't necessarily new. But if you want to see faster results, it is necessary. So can you give us a you know, advice, or even a story on maybe how you connected with a mentor, because I think that there are a lot of people who think that's a great idea, I would love to get a mentor, but might not necessarily have a game plan. So what's something you might share with a, say, say, a budding, you know, regional manager, or maybe someone who's got aspirations to go into commercialization eventually, and developing those mentor relationships?

Spencer Jones 11:14

Ya know, it's, it's, it's not something that seems super straightforward when you're looking at it from the outside, you know, those entrepreneurial support organizations that I mentioned, every state and every locality has their version and their flavor of those groups. So if you know, if you're looking for a mentor, I would definitely contact one of those groups, you know, your economic, if you're still striking out, you can't find them, you know, your your state's economic development commission, someone from that office, should be able to point you in the right direction, or potentially your chamber of commerce from your city or your region. But that's a good avenue to connect with them. You know, I also say, don't be afraid to reach out to someone on LinkedIn, you know, and say, Hey, I'm really interested in this, I just love to pick your brain, do you have 15 minutes, right, that's always, you know, you'd be surprised at how many people you know, will take that call and, and respond to you. You know, accelerator programs are another one. You know, anytime you can find the group doing office hours, which for those kind of not in the space, like an office hours, just, you know, they'll have an attorney come to a lunch for an hour and a half, and people get five to 15 minutes with them. And it's kind of like free, like, you know, free advice, free guidance. So those are always great, too. But I think just getting plugged in, is really key when you're trying to get into you know, any career shift, or pivot or getting into entrepreneurship or innovation, like you really have to get plugged in with the right groups. And then they can be that conduit, that connective tissue between you and a mentor. And I'd say I'd say to, you know, information is so democratized these days, I could see some people saying, well, I can just, you know, I can just ask chat GP, and that will give me any guidance or advice, and I love to educate I use it. So this is not a knock on chat. GBT. But you know, as, as you'll understand, and, you know, whether it's commercialization and finding the right contract manufacturer, or hiring the right salesperson, or raising capital, or sales in general, you know, relationships are everything, and it's so important to develop and foster those good relationships. And, you know, you develop your own brand, you develop your own, you know, kind of identity and reputation. And, and so, you know, cultivating good mentors is another way to do that.

Claire Davis 13:25

Mm hmm. I like how, you know, among other areas, you really develop this sort of brand niche for helping, especially in life science, and also in the Ortho space. So, I'm sure after having consulted this many companies and worked through this many products, there are probably some patterns that you see with early venture startups and innovators who are just trying to figure out how to take their great idea, from their mind to the team to the market. So what are some of the things that you often find your clients asking for? Like, what are some of the common questions that you're presented with with over the years that you've that you've noticed?

Spencer Jones 14:09

Yeah. There's a lot of bad questions. You're presented here, yes, or? No, I think I mean, you know, the lot of I'll kind of start with a lot of the questions that I get that I wish I didn't get, you know, there'll be a lot of people that you'll say, you know, what do you have, like, you'll just have a call with them, and you're just trying to get it, you know, check the temperature on where they are as a business where they are is adventure, you know, say, hey, alright, do you have a pitch deck? Do you have a business plan? Have you done any surveys with customers? Have you done any research on, you know, how much the competitive thing is going for how much they're paying to solve this problem currently? And they'll say no, but I'm just I just want you to help me find someone to make this. Right. And it's like, that is not the approach to take. You know, you could make prototypes and stuff till you're blue in the face. But if you can't prove Clinical superiority. If you don't know if it can't be priced effectively, if you don't understand the reimbursement environment, if you haven't talked to your customers, the end users and intimately understood the problem that you're trying to solve, from their point of view, not your point of view, then how do you even know what you're gonna be building is the right thing, right? How you know, the price, you can build it out, it's going to be viable in the marketplace. So, you know, people will come and say, How do I build this? Can you help me build this or find a contract manufacturer? And I just want to take like, nine steps back and be like, Look, you need to do a lot more research a lot more interviews. But that is, that's usually a question that I get, and then I'll ask them the questions of have you done all these things? You know, I'd say to for, you know, fun. Another question I feel like is more common these days is around fundraising. And, you know, the capital markets have changed a ton, you know, hit, you know, eight years ago, seven years ago, you could, you know, investors were, you know, trying to win you over, right, and now, they're incredibly, you know, close to the chest with their capital, they're trying to preserve dry powder for their existing portfolio companies that may be struggling. And it's, it's a lot harder to get them to depart from their capital. So, you know, I've seen a lot of startups that are looking for to finish off rounds, or or, you know, having trouble starting rounds, or looking for kind of bridge funding, or those types of things. So that's one of the common questions, you know, kind of questions or concerns that I'm getting these days.

Claire Davis 16:30

Is there a different strategy that you take now that maybe you wouldn't have recommended three, four years ago because of the market? And and what people are willing to invest now?

Spencer Jones 16:40

Yeah, absolutely. I don't think it's like a paradigm shift or anything, but I think there are things you can do on the margins, I think, you know, you can raise funds whenever you want, right, but I think the amount of traction, you should expect that they want should be up, right, you should increase they, they're going to want to see more traction earlier. Right. valuations have been depressed a little bit. So don't think you're gonna go out there and, you know, raise 50 million or, you know, raise, you know, $10 million at a 250 million valuation, it's not gonna happen. Right. So valuations have been depressed a bit, you know, I saw a report that it was about, I think it was nine or 10%, of, you know, convertible note deals. In the past year, the past couple quarters had it, like at least 1.2 or 1.5, liquidation preferences, right. So, those are things that you didn't see in deals, you know, six, seven years ago. So I think you can, you know, make sure you're have a conservative valuation, make sure you're coming to the table with a lot more clinical validation, whether it's cadaver lab work, customer traction, customer commitments, that's a big one, if you can get you know, that pilot users trial users, but then on the term sheet side, you know, don't, you know, you may have to, you know, do some things like liquidation preferences, you know, different discount rates, you know, instead of 15, or 20%, you may have to give them a 25% discount rate, right, on a convertible note. So, there's just a lot of levers that you used to not have to pull. But I think today, it's becoming more and more common for you to, for you to have to go and pull those levers to attract and kind of get an investor over the finish line.

Claire Davis 18:21

You know, from the that's such a great, you bring up such a great point. And the reverse engineering that you're talking about, from what we're finding out as far as the utility and the real interest that there would be in the in the market is so important. I was just talking with a gentleman in commercialization the other day, and he called it the pain quotient. Is there a big enough pain quotient that would really dictate that there is a necessary, there's a real need for something like this in the market. And often, like we all do, and we think our ideas are really wonderful, sometimes, because we're so excited about them. We expect others to also be just as excited. Yeah. And I hear that it's common that we can sort of forget to do that initial research to find that pain Quotient or to like you said, see if there's really enough interest out there. Do you find that's a that's a common thing with products that tend to not maybe get off the ground?

Spencer Jones 19:23

Yeah, no, it's it absolutely is I mean, and you're, you're as a founder or the creator of something, you have a vested interest in believing it will succeed and believing it's a huge problem. So So I think people really do a disservice when they don't go out and try to figure out what that pain quotient is from the customer's mouth and from the end users mouth and something, something that I'm saying too, that kind of speaks to that pain quotient. You know, something can be an absolute bear for a surgeon or a nurse to deal with right Right, and you have a solution that makes that thing that problem a little bit better, or a lot better, even right? And that it also may be better for the patient. And you look at this and say, this is better for the patient, it's, it's better for the surgeon. It's not even super expensive. Why wouldn't anyone use this? Right? Everyone should love this. Right. And I think those people and it's such an opaque, murky side of the healthcare industry, but you know, how things are financed insurance coverage and how things are reimbursed, and the profit margins at you know, this facility versus that facility, and the contracted purchasing landscape, whether it's, you know, bundled agreements with large OEMs or GPO contracts, or run down the list on all of those kind of finance side that have nothing to do with putting hands on patient, right. I I've said this, and Dr. Dr. Ammerman, he's a neurosurgeon out of DC Big shout out to him that I work with, you know, it is not he, I think he coined this, it is not just good enough, these days to be clinically superior, you have to be clinically superior. And you have to provide a direct cost advantage, or at a minimum cost parity for the hospital, right. Because if you truly have something innovative, what that means is they're not currently solving your problem. So what you're going to bring to them is likely just an added cost, right. And they're not going to do that in this environment, unless you have, you know, a cure for a disease that's not being cured or something that's, you know, Truly, truly, truly groundbreaking. But, you know, just hospitals, it's hard, hard to get them to pay serious money for incremental improvements to things that they're not already solving, and things that are not going to directly impact their bottom line. I say direct, I don't mean, there's this benefit, because this thing might happen or might happen less and down the road, you'll save money, I'm talking like, you need to be you were buying this, now you're buying mine and it's cheaper or the same price, and you're getting all this clinical value. That's what they want to see these days, it seems like, Yeah, okay.

Claire Davis 22:05

So from your perspective, I would love to know, you know, obviously, there's a lot of contracts and a lot of hospitals that will take on the laundry list from one company, and they will slightly innovate new products that are necessary. So essentially, they're buying from one vendor, right? So like saying that Tronic or something? Do you think that it would be better or worse, for a hospital to be more contract driven with one vendor? Or that it would be better to have multiple vendors with different competitive products to drive maybe innovation? And if if and efficiency? Or maybe is it the other way around? It's better to innovate and be efficient with one company at a time? What are your thoughts on that?

Spencer Jones 22:51

It's a really good question. You know, there is a lot of that. I'll call it kind of bundled price breaks and rebates that you're able to get and elevation of tears, because you're spending so much there's a ton of that that happens, you know, I would say it's probably specific to like a certain department because, you know, and I'm just on this just to use an example or, you know, hypothetically here, but Medtronic may have great plates and screws, but their biologics aren't what you want. You want another company's biologics and, and so on and so forth. I mean, I think General for in general, from like, an antitrust perspective, like, the more competition you have, the better it's going to be in terms of getting the best products possible and getting them at the right price. Right. So anything, you know, I would, I would lean towards more innovation, more diversification of your, you know, supply chain, if you will, or your vendors that you're working with, you know, most all of these vendors are going to be distributing their product through a cardinal are a Medline or McKesson. So at the end of the day, you're still going to be getting that one shipment or you know, however often you get that shipment from the MEDLINE truck or whatever. So so it doesn't really mess up your logistics side of the supply chain as much but from a how many vendors different products were using, I would Lin I would lean towards more competition because you're going to be getting a kind of a broader, more diverse set of products and when new innovative things pop up that can really help your patients or save you money. You're not contractually bound by some non clinical reason to stick with one of those companies right?

Claire Davis 24:25

Interesting. Thank you so much for sharing that you know, I I've so enjoyed following you on LinkedIn and which is where we met everybody so please do just like just like we're sharing here today Spencer's right. Even reaching out on LinkedIn can make a huge difference in the people and the quality of relationships that you build, where you want to get visible where you want to learn and grow. And one thing I've learned from you is, is certain certainly passion for the product, my goodness, the stuff that you guys are creating. It's just phenomenal, especially where pediatrics are concerned. earned. And it's, it's really incredible to see. And so just today, even Gosh, we've been talking 30 minutes, couple things I've taken away from this conversation today are that it is an incredible asset to have somebody with clinical experience on the ground floor, guiding the business processes and the idea generation of new products like these. So I was just chatting with a gentleman the other day, and he said, Yeah, we've got a really great product, but it's incredibly difficult for the nurses to deploy. So while the physicians may love it, actually getting it to happen, and that or suite is a real problem, and it won't fly. So having somebody like you on the team is absolutely essential. And I love that. The other thing that you mentioned that I think is really interesting is that, you know, you don't have to know everything. It's not like you wake up one day, and suddenly you're ready to guide a startup, right. But if you have passion, reach out to those mentors, and start developing those relationships and learn that business acumen where you want to be powerful in your field. And then finally, having that clear differentiator advantage, that's what's gonna make products and people stand apart. And I think that, you know, this is really powerful stuff right here. So if somebody wants to connect with you, and and learn more, maybe, you know, chat with you about what you've got going on, and what your products are all about, and hear your story where, where should they connect with you?

Spencer Jones 26:31

Yeah, so um, I tried to be pretty good about checking my messages on LinkedIn. So it's Spencer Jones on LinkedIn, I'm the one that's working dilapidations. I'm the only Spencer at our company that I know. So just reach out, you can message me on LinkedIn. You know, I actually really enjoy getting to connect with people, you know, if you're, if anything we talked about today resonated with you. Just shoot me a message on LinkedIn. And you know, whether you just want to say you enjoyed the podcast, or you want to connect, you know, for a quick phone call or something or a zoom, I would love to connect with you. And I appreciate you listening all the way through this awesome podcast. I know I had fun and clear, I just just really appreciated that you had me on.

Claire Davis 27:13

I'm so grateful. You know, I've admired you for a while. You're exactly who I who I knew you'd be from getting to know you through your content. So I appreciate you and your candor and everything you've shared. And you know, if you guys want to have round two, also with Spencer, I'll put you on the spot. And maybe we'll do we'll continue this conversation in the future. But I can't thank you enough for really highlighting some of these things today. I know a lot of people in the clinical space in the medical sales space, have entrepreneurial aspirations. So follow Spencer, check out what he's going on and connect with him. You can't go wrong. And thank you so much for your time today. And thanks. Thanks, everybody here for joining. You know if you're here and listening is because you want to learn and grow on your craft. And we're grateful for each one of you for tuning in. So thank you so much for joining us today, Switzer. Thank you Take care. All right, you too. Until next time. Thanks, everyone for joining and we'll see you then.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

How to Set Yourself up for Success

AI-Generated Transcript below. There may be errors.

Claire Davis 1:40

Hello, and welcome to another episode of today's medical sales leader where we dive into the world of medical sales and uncover the incredible stories and the incredible people making a difference in this industry. I'm your host is Claire Davis. And today we have an extraordinary guest with us. He's joining us all the way from Texas, Dallas, Fort Worth. And it's Chase. Wasson. So Chase, welcome to the show. I am so glad you're here. We bumped into each other on LinkedIn and I have been following your journey for a while now. So thank you so much. It's an honor to have you on the show.

Chase Wasson 2:16

Well, the pleasure is mine, Claire and can't thank you enough and the privilege and the opportunity to be a guest and look forward to our conversation.

Claire Davis 2:23

Awesome. Me too. And you know, what, if, if anybody here listening hasn't met Chase, be sure to follow him. Like his stuff get all over his content. He is making major major waves in this industry right now. But let me ask you this, if you're listening, have you ever thought about what it really takes to make a leader in the healthcare space? Well, Chase is not just an accomplished healthcare industry leader, but also a force to be reckoned with, both on and off the field. So from being a state championship quarterback life sciences chases journey is nothing but short of nothing short of inspiring. And that's why I'm really excited to have you here today. Because I think it's so fascinating, what makes us into the leaders that we are today. And when I found out that you have this deep sports background, I knew I had to talk to you about it. I know it's got to be part of your story. So do you feel like those early days and those underpinnings of teamwork and camaraderie and everything that you do in football has something to do with the way that you lead teams and companies today?

Chase Wasson 3:31

Well, you're taking me way back, Claire, don't let the suit for you nowadays, but I appreciate you touching on that. Because absolutely, I think the life lessons that you learned through being part of any team, any competitive environment, learning to overcome adversity, therefore, early on, and for me personally, you know, part of my success Well, the majority of my success has always been around the people that I've been fortunate to surround myself with, you talked about back to, you know, the high school days, privileged to play in what still is probably the most well respected and dominant high school football program in the nation. Southlake Carroll, you know, I was part of, you know, great teammates, great coaches, but really a locker room and a culture where everyone was pulling for the same mission. And those are things that you learn through competitive sports, I'll touch on the football journey that are really transferable to driving success, creating culture, you know, creating synergy setting the expectation of excellence that was formed early on, in my journey, a lot of that and I think most successful individuals are obviously tasked or have had the privilege to be around folks that they've really aspired to be. And for me, coaches, more or less having a coach as my dad was a huge impact on my life. So, you know, I grew up in the locker room The football helped mold and shape the mindset, that competitive mentality that I still try to bring today as a healthcare industry partner. But definitely the times on the gridiron have definitely helped forge the work ethic, the mindset, the mentality. And really the the overall just every day is an opportunity to not only win for patients, but to put your organization and yourself as an individual in a position to win and move the ball forward. So that was, I think, a great foundation that's really helped not only catapult my career, but give me a lens into always wanting to surround myself with great people, to ultimately, you know, align to those same goals and achieve ultimately the win, whether it's sports, you know, healthcare, sales, etc.

Claire Davis 5:52

Well, you know, and I appreciate you bringing that up to supporting the win, right? Because one thing I really admired was that you took that you took your football experience, and I know we're going way back in the archives here, but I love how you identified an opportunity where you could even make an impact on sports. So I was reading about CO your co founding of El Paso, Texas. So can you tell me a little bit about you know, how that passion for football and and sportsmanship and leadership transition into a business opportunity?

Chase Wasson 6:24

Yeah, well, you know, the one thing I think you'll hear a constant theme with myself and other leaders that have had success in any environment is leveraging relationships and creating trusted partnerships to drive success. As we look back kind of on that part of my journey, XO, Texas was actually forge with a former teammate of mine at University of Oklahoma, who is still one of my best friends, but but he and I, you know, former competitive athletes, there's obviously a need for protection within the football landscape and other sports environment, but we found a need for, you know, kind of the evolution of where concussions were going with football and the need to address safety, etc. We forged EXO Texas at the time, we partnered with one of the largest distributors of a technology called unequal technologies, which was a Kevlar kind of protective gear. I personally had never been in the orthopedic space. But one of our other partners was Dr. Daniel orielle, who's one of the most well respected, even to this day, orthopedic surgeons throughout the country, he was one of our partners. But, you know, that was a great learning experience to take care of the, you know, the relationships that I'd made in football, had some sick fifth, you know, in the healthcare sector already, but looking at ways to for, you know, some So, ancillary avenues to bring income into myself, but also be involved in kind of a passion, which was football and sports at the time. So we had a lot of success with that venture, myself and my partner, Derek Gove, who now runs one of the largest healthcare consulting organizations in the country now. So, you know, I just say that there are two, I think the life lesson for our listeners, and for the folks that are looking to also have kind of that entrepreneurial mindset is, where are your relationships? Are you going to surround yourself with like minded individuals that that kind of track what you're driving towards? What do you have a passion for? And when all those things combined, you know, that's a recipe for success?

Claire Davis 8:22

Absolutely. And, you know, my husband and I joke all the time, like, there are so many different takes on how to build that network and how our network really ends up building us, and how difficult it can be to kind of fine tune what that network looks like, you know, who are we really surrounding ourselves with? So I love that you helped bring this mission to life by by just involving such incredible minds, because that really shows me a collaborative effort. You know, we don't always have to have all the answers. But really, the power is when we can bring in people who are on par and as passionate as we are, and experts in their industry, like you know, your friend who was a specialist in orthopedics. So, so that brings me to healthcare, obviously, you're making an incredible impact here. And at a at a young age, like I said, one of the youngest here at terrorists, but an incredible impact on the industry. So what about healthcare really drew you in? And I'd love to also hear how you've seen healthcare evolve over the last 10 years into what it looks like today from your perspective.

Chase Wasson 9:36

Well, I will tell you the only exposure I had early on to healthcare or pharmaceuticals or device sales was Love and Other Drugs, the movie. You know, when I finished my playing career and finished school, a University of Oklahoma while pursuing my master's, I met an individual who still to this day is a mentor and has a ton of success and individual by the name of Kenneth nobles, who is now an executive I'm into V or pharmaceuticals had a long career at AstraZeneca pharmaceuticals. But I had very little exposure to what is pharmaceutical sales, what is a medical device rep. In fact for not to divulge a lot of time, but it was the relationship that I had with tennis that initially opened the door. And at the time, Claire 1516 years ago, a lot of these organizations had what they call talent acquisition days. And I had the opportunity to, you know, interview kind of in a round robin setting with a variety of different companies. One of those was AstraZeneca, pharmaceuticals. And I was very fortunate, you know, I was hired by AstraZeneca, right out of college, very privileged to essentially walk into probably too easy of an opportunity. And the extent that I was fortunate to be a part of a press store, I was fortunate to be part of Nexium, so these are blockbuster, multibillion dollar drugs, you know, tremendous payer coverage. And really, you know, the training that I got at AstraZeneca, from a corporate standpoint, as far as process, clinical acumen, how to approach the end user being physician, or the impact of the total office call, those were things that, you know, you can read about you can, you know, see on a movie, you know, with love and other drugs in the tea, kind of go to that formalized training, and understand what the day in the life as an industry partner really looked like, I had no idea until I truly hit the ground running. So that was my first exposure to the industry. And we can kind of talk through the evolution of what I've seen in the last 15 years. But I will tell you, that's how I was able to at least get my foot in the door was through the networking, and really an individual taking a chance on giving me an opportunity to position myself, and then you know, like anything, once you get your opportunity you produce and good things continue to happen.

Claire Davis 11:57

Yeah, I think that's an art, you know, and I'm so glad that you mentioned that, because something that's a recurring theme already, is mentorship and networking. And these aren't new concepts, right? I mean, these are things especially in this industry, it's who you know, and who, you know, like, that's, that's really what it always has come down to. But I think that it's the way that you carry forward those relationships and the ability to, like you had, see and recognize the opportunity that's there, and then run with it. Because there's one thing to be presented with opportunities, there's an quite another thing to actually leverage what's in front of us. So can you another thing I've really appreciated now that I've been following your journey for a while, is that you do continue to expand upon the opportunities that come to come toward you. And the effects can be felt it's almost like a contagious thing wherever you go, you know, opportunity seems to follow. And in my experience with the executives that I work with, with their career branding, often I find that when someone has a roadmap that I can track along and see the successes, it's because it's not just that they're great at winning, but they have been they've created a system for winning. And so something that I've seen you talk about recently has been your win the day motto, and I'd sort of love to hear, you know, what does that system for success really look like for you? Because I suspect that whether you, you know, initially recognize it, you know, and practiced it intentionally or perhaps recognize it now and have have coined this incredible movement and term of win the day. That it's it's pretty strategic, and it's systematic. Would you say so?

Chase Wasson 13:49

Well, I appreciate you highlighting that. And by no means is I did I point you know, the three words that when D and de, but when you put those together, when you combine it with a process, and I'm also a very big believer clear dream, your pain, paint your dream. So part of the way I've tried to navigate from a career perspective is and I'll kind of digress back to the initial, you know, my initial journey right at AstraZeneca. I was in the primary care side of the arena. You know, that was my first foray into what is healthcare, right? You've got great coverage for a product, he call him primary care physicians. It's kind of you've got your small Rolodex of call points. That's not necessarily the big leagues of healthcare sales, right. But that's the process to start as a salesperson understand, you know, what's the impact of a primary care physician? Where are they then referring those patients? How is that impacting the idea? How's that the idea is tied to the fair, what's the surgical ramifications of some of the ambulatory surgery centers that are tied back to that original PCP? So I say all that to say when I started this journey in health care, I got In a very naive, as I started watching those that were having a lot of success and morphing their career, and you've touched on this trusting the guidance of great mentors and great leaders to kind of guide and direct, you know, the path of where I want to want to go, there's been a constant thing. And that theme is what you talked about, win the day. And kind of my mantra is, if it ends in why you choose to win the day. And so I tried to, you know, emulate that not only from from a personal perspective, but that corporate grind, so to speak. And so that from a, from a tailoring my career standpoint, I've looked at every move I've wanted to make, is it strategic? Am I gonna gain knowledge? Am I going to gain net, you know, a networking opportunity continue to impact and what is this job going to position me for the next opportunity? And I've been very fortunate through my career and journey, that every step I've taken, you know, there's been challenges. There's been different trials and tribulations, but they've been tremendous learning experiences for me to continue to impact both provider patient, internal and external customer.

Claire Davis 16:10

Mm hmm. And do you think that can can you break apart a little bit what sort of specifics you mean? Or maybe what are some some hurdles that people who want to win the day will be overcoming with this new mindset?

Chase Wasson 16:27

Well, a lot of it right is it's easy to talk it's a different model of walking, right. And so I'm a big believer in not everyone has to be you know, upset with fitness upset with reading, the new the new Jive right is obsessed with cold plunge to really get your mind and body you know, in sinks, etcetera. But I do think, you know, kind of the process to win the day is having a process, having kind of a succinct, you know, schedule, if you will, especially if you're in the healthcare sector, as an industry partner, you know, the days, the days and nights can be very long, they're they're very erratic, there's, it's constantly fourth and one from a productivity standpoint that things are constantly shuffling, but you know, kind of routine, I think, creates behavior. And I'm a big believer in creating a routine from a lifestyle standpoint that, you know, shows that number one, you're very passionate about the way you come across from a brand. Presentation standpoint, I think that's something for all, whatever line of work you're into, you know, a lot of times you do judge a book by its cover, well, you as an individual, especially in this day and age, you are the brand, right, you're the first thing a customer thinks of. So regardless of what you're representing the way you carry yourself, and just the presence you're putting out there itself, reflection of the commitment to you, what are you putting in your body? What are you reading? What are you doing from an exercise standpoint, to me, these are big drivers and really give the perspective to from the customer standpoint of if I'm in front of you saying that, from an organizational standpoint, we're going to deliver on service on clinical excellence on giving you the resources necessary to make your life easier as an end user, then when you look at me, I want to make sure that I'm giving that presentation back to you did you know I'm very conscious of the attention to detail it takes to win the day.

Claire Davis 18:29

Right? Right. You know, that's so interesting. I'm I'm a huge fan of Andrew Huberman you ever watched to listen to the Hebrew lab. And there is a show that he has, I think, repeated from his his podcast now three different times. And he backs everything with science. I know as much as as you also did derive a lot of your strategy from scientific data. And a couple of specific things that he mentions are in the very beginning of your day, that's what's going to return. That's what's going to determine how the rest of your day actually unfolds and how we will have a great impact on others, or if we're going to have our light diminished a little bit. And so a couple of things that he mentioned that I've been practicing this quarter, are when you get up in the morning, instead of hitting the coffee pot, walking outside and getting some sunshine on your face. And apparently that direct light from the sun, wakes our body up and plays plays well with our circadian rhythms, I guess. And so that is a much better way to start at the very, very beginning, where I had been drinking coffee 30 seconds out after my feet hit the floor for 20 years. Right. So, you know, just little specifics like that I think are so so important. And I'm really encouraged to hear that this is the shift that you and companies that you lead are making and encouraging people to embrace. Because if we don't take care of ourselves, and as you said, we are the brand. So it doesn't matter what we're selling, or what we have or who we're helping, if we don't take care of ourselves first, it's going to be harder to be productive to get gain buy in and trust from other people. So are there any little specifics that when you're saying, okay, for anybody listening here, that's new today, and they want to start winning the day? They should try thing? One thing two, or three? What are a couple specifics you'd recommend?

Chase Wasson 20:37

Well, if I told you my routine, you probably you don't question my sanity. But I would say, number one, you know, I think I'm up a little bit too early to get the sun hitting me to really start the day. But I would say I find a lot of value personally, and starting my day very early on very routine centric, in a sense of, you know, not everyone has access to a gym, not everyone has access to you know, the cold plunges the saunas, etc, everyone has access in my mind to, you know, essentially, push ups, pull ups, you know, doing a lot of body weight type, you know, exercise. So for me, personally, I like waking up extremely early. I'm a big believer in trying to teach some of the buddies that I'm involved with that, you know, you want to be up before the rooster crows. So I think that sets the stage right of waking up with the mindset to win personally, as far as whatever that gets you build, reading, Bible study, you know, working out whatever that piece is where you can kind of take yourself out of that corporate mindset, and get yourself ready to attack today from a family side from a work workflow side. So I would challenge you know, our listeners, especially those in healthcare, start your day with something that makes you feel like you've won before the day starts. That's big for me. You know, and then I also think one thing that's, that always gets people going is, you know, surround yourself with like minded individuals. So keep a circle of people, you know, that are within your corner that, you know, may not, may not think exactly like you but but are going to challenge you to kind of keep those routines of success. And that's been something for me personally, that I've got a small group of folks that, that I'm dialed in with daily that hold each other accountable, that, you know, give each other a hard time if you're not kind of rising to when kind of rise shine grind impact is some of the things that we talk through daily as our small circle. But, you know, those are just some of the personal things, especially those of us who have kids, I think that keeps us just as busy before we get out the door, and probably the most most priority, as well, as you know, making sure you're spending time with those little ones and family to, you know, really mold them to that same mindset.

Claire Davis 22:57

Yes, so many of our listeners here are in healthcare, and also parents. And so, you know, Chase, what I really appreciate about what you shared is that you're keying in on something that's so critical, and I think can present a hurdle in itself for a lot of people listening here and certainly was for me, and in some ways, I'm sure still is. But it's comparing what we're doing to others, when what you're sharing is, you've got to find what works for you. Because maybe the 5am Club isn't for everybody. And that's not the best time for them to be really engaged and really fill that mental cup, right? Maybe they're maybe they're more productive at night, maybe that's when they feel refreshed. And that's when they can kind of wind down or even ramp up, maybe that's when their best thoughts come. So I think that's really important to note that when you are winning the day, the first step is to identify it sounds like what winning looks like for you. Right? So if somebody if somebody wanted to think, okay, what are some? What are some things that maybe I'm missing? That would be helpful to setting me up for success so that I can win the day because I think a lot of us think about, you know, exercise nutrition. I don't know if as many think about the circle and the friends that we keep, right, that's definitely important. But what are some Are there any other things that people generally miss, that they can really use to win the day outside of those that we've kind of heard a lot about? Well, let

Chase Wasson 24:39

me tie this back to kind of the health care side, Claire, if you don't mind, and I think this will really resonate for your audience and and for those that are looking to continue to expand kind of their success with within the healthcare sector. I would also challenge you know, especially as an industry partner, right, you know, our end users, our physicians, the executives of health systems, have plans, etc. Whether it's it, you name it, they're also winning the day and whatever they're trying to do. So part of really building record with your customer base is letting them truly see your authentic self. And I think that that to me, as I've grown in health care, and the gentleman that has been probably the most impactful person on my journey from a sales side, as far as demeanor as far as presentation style, as far as putting themselves in front of a customer to truly win the day, when the moment set the expectation with the customer that, you know, I'm here to serve. But I'm also here as a partner, you know, collaborate together as an individual by the name of Darren rack, okay, and I bring this up, and it'll come full circle, Darren taught me a couple of things as far as kind of that when the day and how can you set yourself apart with the customer is in healthcare, and it's no different today than it was probably 10 to 15 years ago, the rules are a little different, as far as engagement, what you can and can't do as an industry partner. But the service side, and the customer buying into you, as a brand prior combined into the whatever product you represent, is still in my eyes, you know, is one of the first and foremost important thing. So what Darren taught me is establishing trust and connectivity to the customer. Before you're able to ever get into the clinical attributes, the differentiation of the product, the financial benefits, etc. But those are things that I think are very transferable to your audience. And especially the way healthcare is moving, where our end users are controlled, a lot by payers a lot, by pathways a lot by automated decisions that are out of their control. What are you doing daily, as an individual or industry representative, to differentiate yourself. And part of that differentiation, I think, and what I've seen is really creating that trust and that peer to peer kind of synergy with your customer base where, you know, you heard me talk about, you've got a group of friends that you know, you're talking with my friends and my customers, I try to be the same people with and I think when your customer can start to see, this is how it's got why. And we might not always align on the same thing all the time. But when they understand this as your approach, it's a win win. And then the trust starts. So I did want to touch on that, especially to the healthcare side, is the differentiation comes in yourself, especially in kind of this commoditized world, what will you do to separate your brand from the competition?

Claire Davis 27:51

Yeah, you know, it's amazing to me how trust really plays such a factor in business in every segment. I mean, really, we could be talking about any market other than healthcare and including health care, when it comes to building that trust in your customer, you are so right. What I find is really interesting, and an early learning when I was shadowing when I worked in a precision medicine company, way back when I won't date myself right now, but and I was riding along with my first oncology sales specialist. And he was showing me the ropes were going in and out of the AOR. And I remember things were changing at the company. And he knew that his time was going to come to an end with the company and he was already on to the next opportunity that was coming. And so he was he was talking to his physicians here in the O R. And he said, Hey, I just want you to know Claire is going to be taking care of you. I'm going to be going to this other company. And I as a young green rep, I thought okay, well, well, that's pretty much it. And then he'll probably have to start from scratch with this new project product that he's selling with his physicians. But sure enough, that physician turned around and said, All right, and we'll call him Terry said all right, Terry, what you got, I'll try it. And I was floored Chase, because it was the first window I had into the deep trust. And it's such a key reminder that we still want to do business with people that we trust and that we know and that we like, people want to do business with who they like, right. And it was the very first time that I had heard from a surgeon say, Yeah, wherever you're going, I believe in you. I trust you. So I will try it because I put my confidence in the kind of work that you do in the kind of company that you would represent Terry, it was phenomenal. So I'm sure you see, you know that a lot. It's from from at least the Charis reps that I know personally LEED have worked with, I see that as an undercurrent in all of them. It's a really tangible, visceral feeling that I get from the people at the company, because they seem to have this really deep underlying belief and championing of the product. And not that other reps don't in their companies, but there's really something special special there. So is that something that you really hone in on when you're leading the company and building the organization from top to bottom as brand champions?

Chase Wasson 30:35

Well, I think it starts right with and specifically Charis is the vision and the leadership and really the guidance from our CEO and founder, Mr. David Hilbert, it starts with his vision of, you know, we had what's called the Monroe, where every time we're approaching a situation, what would you do for your mom, and I think that type of mentality has cascaded itself down to our, you know, commercial sales team who, you know, day to day, there are challenges, right? There's different dynamics that are driving behaviors with both physicians with pathology with with payers, but the one controllable, and we're very big myself on control, what you can control is, the way we show up the service that we provide, and the passion around the clinical acumen. And really the things that we can offer to our end users, which are providers, which are pathologist which our healthcare system leaders on here is why we feel like within our organization or Karis, we're providing the best blueprint for you to provide the best care and decision making for your particular patients, which is obviously whatever you're representing, I think, in health care, those that have success and will continue to propel their career, you know, patients are at the fore forefront of what everyone's driving forward. So when all those things align, and you have the support, you know, from the very top to drive, that vision, it just, you know, it lends itself to your commercial counterparts, all being in lockstep to to provide exceptional service and really be that brand that the customer trusts and believes in.

Claire Davis 32:15

I love that there's a Monroe, I had no idea. That's phenomenal. What a great way to lead. We, we have a similar one in the in the resume writing world, it's the grandmother rule. But it's it's a little bit on a different plane, it's if you wouldn't share it with your grandmother at her Thanksgiving table, don't put it on the internet or on your resume. These matriarchs, they they really have a lot to teach us, right? That's

Chase Wasson 32:41

right. You know, your your mother's your grandmother's, I think they obviously mold you better than anyone. So those are those are great, great life lessons.

Claire Davis 32:51

Absolutely. So you know, you've been you've been around the block here, you've you're 40, under 40, and cancer care, you're doing huge things in the industry. Where do you see the industry going? Do you think we're going to see more of the same when it comes to how we interact with physicians and get new products to market? Or do you think that things are going to change with the evolution of AI and the the new access challenges that are ever present in healthcare?

Chase Wasson 33:18

Well, it's a great question, Claire, I can tell you from from personal perspective, right, and we touched a little bit on this, you know, 1015 years ago, as an industry partner, if your particular customer wanted to use your, whether it's drugs, whether it's device, they had autonomic decision power to say, yes, I want to use this, as I've seen the evolution, you know, expand, you know, contracts are driving behavior. PBMs and payers are dictating a lot of prescribing, you know, habits with with providers in the space, I'm in the precision medicine side, you're seeing a lot of consolidation of, you know, hospitals developing their own internal panels. So I think you're going to continue to see the evolution of innovation is going to continue to drive behavior. Those companies and organizations that are adapting and innovating, the way they're delivering their sales model is going to be key, I do think you're going to see a continued evolution of you know, access continues to be a big barrier, even post COVID into the customer base. That being said, there's now a new avenue where you can outreach to customers, and we touched on this early on, you know, social media is playing a much bigger deal in you can reach, you know, a multitude of customers with a few clicks. So that's where it goes back to what type of brand are you driving to represent your organization. But you know, I think we're going to continue to see evolution. We're going to continue to see innovation big data, I think is going to drive a lot more positive outcomes for both patients and providers. of how companies are able to leverage data and try to drive synergy around clinical trials, etc, with their particular customer base will be key. But at the end of the day, organizations are always going to need individuals that number one represent themselves with the utmost integrity, class trust and a brand that the customer respects. So I don't think that will ever go away. But I do think the evolution of AI those that are staying up to par on how to leverage Chet GPT, you know, how are you going to continue to stay up with the trends in the Social Forum, and, you know, continue to develop a personal brand, while leveraging that for corporate success is where I think you're gonna see organizations either thrive, or kind of stay status quo. I'm a big believer that magnets, you know, always find a way to attract themselves. So I think those companies that are in that space that are constantly pressing, innovation, aligning themselves with the right payer contracts, and the right kind of KOLs, or, or industry leaders, in particular therapeutic areas that they buy into their kind of belief, or, when you get when you get Customer Care, and consumer all aligned to the same vision. That's where the magic happens as far as truly winning the day together.

Claire Davis 36:24

That's amazing. And you know what, it's so refreshing. Having been in this industry for a while myself as well. Sometimes it can feel like healthcare takes a bit longer than other industries to catch up into catch fire with trends. And I am, there's a lot of reason for that, right? There's a lot of regulation there, we're dealing with health, we're not dealing with fax machines, like, I get it. But I'm so it's so refreshing. And I'm so inspired to hear from leaders like you, and companies like yours, who are really embracing this new way of social marketing, and reaching our customers the way that they want to be interacted with. And I think that's what it has come down to me to come down to for me lately is that it's not just because it's easier, or hey, we can scale this. But also, you know, this is the thing that we have in our pocket all the time, and physicians as well. And it's so much easier for them to just flip open a message or to experience you where they're already interacting, instead of trying to carve out additional areas or space in their day, when they really want to be focusing on the patients that they care about. So I am so inspired by what you're doing. And you know what Chase just today in this conversation, a couple of my key takeaways that I've already had, and I'm sure everybody listening has as well is number one, you are the brand. And this is something that I think the industry is finally coming around to and I'm so glad to see it because the way that people experience us is how they determine whether they want to do business with us or not, regardless of what we're carrying in some kitten some cases. Number two, because things are always shifting, it's really important to start creating those routines that can support us, not just professionally, but personally. Because like you shared today, if we're not taking care of ourselves, personally, there's no way we can show up as our best selves professionally either. Which brings me to number three, winning looks different for everyone. So I love that you shared that if the day ends and why it's a great day to win the day. And it looks different for everyone. So it's really worth finding out what winning what that those things are that we can do that really fulfill us and set us up for success look like for us individually. So I'm on fire for this. I'm inspired by what you do. If more people want to find out about you and win the day, and and how they can really embrace and practice this kind of thinking for themselves. Where do you suggest that they go?

Chase Wasson 39:01

Well, first off, Claire, I can't thank you enough for just the opportunity to talk to you and be a part of this program. You know, honor privilege and know that you're doing tremendous thing, even in the resume world, etc. But, you know, for me personally touched on this. I've been blessed to be surrounded by great people, great leaders, great mentors, individuals that I truly aspire to be like. So you know, anyone that ever wants, you know, a mentor, mentor, mentee type relationship. I'm on all the social forums, LinkedIn, Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, you know, I try to keep a lot of stuff as private as possible with the family side. But, you know, LinkedIn, I would say is the best way to connect. Authenticity is huge for me. So anything I can do to, you know, be a sounding board or give guidance on been honored and privileged to be a part of a lot of former athletes that are kind of graduating and, you know, give them a little guidance on, you know, what is the health care industry partner life look like and I will tell everyone and I'll leave on this clear. You know, everyone sees I guess maybe the glitz and the glamour of what could come of industry success from a financial perspective and what that can you know, afford your lifestyle. It all starts with hard work. It all starts with the ability to, you know, kind of take control of your career, leverage relationships built for us, and continue to sharpen the sword and be an asset to your company and to your customers. So, I would just encourage anyone and everyone that's out there to reach out to me if there's any way I can be a resource, definitely plug in. And I'll leave you with this if it ends in why we choose to win the day.

Claire Davis 40:42

Yes, I love it. Thank you, Chase, you are an absolute gem. Like Jay said, please be sure to follow him reach out to him on LinkedIn and believe you me he is absolutely dead square on about mentorship and networking. So take his advice. Seriously, guys, if you're listening here today, it is absolutely worth getting the right people in your corner and staying open with that learners mind to continue to learn from incredible people like Chase here today. So Chase, I am incredibly honored. You know how blessed I feel to have you on the show today. Thank you for everything that you're doing in healthcare. I really believe in what you're doing. And everyone for joining us today. Thank you very much every single one of you is the reason that we do this show. And I'm so grateful for you joining us to learn these valuable lessons and hear these captivating stories and get this whole lot of inspiration from people like Chase Wasson here. So thanks, everybody for joining us. Thank you chase. And until next time, thanks for joining us on today's medical sales leader. We'll see you next time.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

How to Build Relationships

AI-Generated Transcript below. There may be errors.

Claire Davis 0:21

Good morning and welcome back to another episode of today's medical sales leader where I have somebody who I have been dying to speak with for so long since I read one of my most favorite books called the Go Giver. And the reason I want to chat about Bob about this today with Bob, is because he has really given us a nice fresh perspective on getting out from under that crushing quota, and refocusing your business, your sales career and your life on the theory of going and giving and what that can bring up for this and how it can help our entire ecosystem thrive as well as ourselves. So Bob, thank you so much for joining us, all the way from Florida this morning. I am so grateful to have you here.

Bob Berg 1:03

A pleasure, Claire, great to speak with you, love the work you're doing and It’s just an honor to be here.

Claire Davis 1:10

Thank you so much. Well, if I can I'm going to introduce you here. For everybody who doesn't yet know Bob Berg and please take this moment I demanded go follow him right now go check out his work. But for over 30 years, Bob has been successfully showing entrepreneurs, leaders and sales professionals how to communicate their value and accelerate their business growth, which we've we talked about all the time, right? There's so many different ways to do it. But for years, he was best known for his sales classic, Endless Referrals. And it's his business parable, the Go Giver that I love. He co authored it with sorry, John David Mann. And it's created a worldwide movement. In fact, just behind the scenes before we were jumping on the show, we were talking a little bit about how now Bob is putting together even mastermind retreats around this kind of principle. So really exciting stuff. It's part of a four book series. But the Go Giver itself has sold more than 1 million copies and has been translated into 30 languages. It was rated number 10 on Inc magazine's list of the most motivational books ever written. And it was on HubSpot 20 most highly rated sales books of all time. He's the co founder of the Go Giver Community Network, which I hope we could talk a little bit about today and how people can tap into that. And it's the first of its kind online business community created by and for go givers. He's an advocate, a supporter, a defender of the free enterprise system, believing that the amount of money that one makes is directly proportional, directly proportional to how many people they serve. So he's also an unapologetic, unapologetic animal fanatic, which I am as well. And he's served on the board of directors of furry friends adoption and clinic in his town of Jupiter, Florida. So I mean, I don't know about you, but I think that you've got some pretty incredible things you've accomplished so far. And I know this must feel like just the beginning once you get into this mentality. So tell me a little bit more about let's start with the Go Giver, Bob. What was your What was your motivation for creating something that wasn't just a book about sales or a book about you know, how to sell better? Or how to you know, how to motivate people in their life? Why did you go with this parable form.

Bob Berg 3:27

So back in the 90s, the mid 90s, I had my first book out, which was called endless referrals, The subtitle was network your everyday contacts into sales. And it was a book for people who were entrepreneurs, salespeople, they knew they had a great product or service that brought immense value to those they served. But they didn't necessarily feel comfortable going out into their communities and building the kinds of relationships that would cause people to want to do business with them personally, as well as refer them to others. So it was really a how to guide a system, if you will. And I personally define a system as the process of predictably achieving a goal based on a logical and specific set of how to principles the key being predictability, right? If it's been proven that by doing a, you'll get the desired results of B, then you know, all you need to do is a and continue to do a and you'll get the desired results of B so it was a how to the premise was then something I've been saying for 3035 years, however long I've been doing this is that all things being equal, people will do business with and refer business to those people they know like, and trust. So you know, the book did well um, but it was a how to book and, and I'd always since I'd been in sales, I'd always read and enjoyed business parables. It's a parallel story, right? And so it's the work of fiction, but based on certain immediate The laws and principles. And I think we all kind of know intuitively that stories connect on a deeper level than a how to, and I love how to books, I've got hundreds of them, I've read hundreds, if not 1000s. And I've written How To books. But I always thought, wouldn't it be great if we can take this basic relationship building principle, which works in terms of, as you said, whether it's, you know, success in terms of business, you know, financial, physical, spiritual, mental, emotional, social, relational, doesn't matter, certain principles that work across the board. And, and, and put it in a story form a short story that would really connect on a heart to heart level that people would be able to grasp and that brought something that that would hopefully be a value to the marketplace. So I kind of sat on that idea for a long time. And then in the early 2000s, when they called the Early aughts, right. zeros. I was writing a monthly column for a magazine that was in the in John David Mann, my co author, now called soon to be co author was, at the time was the editor in chief. And he was great. I mean, he wasn't as well known as he is now where he's now the co author of lots of great books, including a few mystery novels, it's got some talent, but back then I just knew him. He was brilliant, okay, and nice guy. And I shared with them this little idea I had, you know, kind of hadn't really been fleshed out, but I knew it was about the fact that the most successful people, the sustainably successful people, they're always focused on the other person they're giving value all the time. Yep. So you know, he, it's funny, he was busy at the time. So his one time he and his fiancee were in Tampa visiting her mom and his mom. And they actually took a four hour drive across the state, to Jupiter, where I live, we had about a three hour dinner and discuss the idea of the book. And he suddenly, you know, let me think about about three weeks later, he calls me and says, you know, I think we got something here, let's do this. And, you know, and by the way, so it only took us a few months to write it. And again, he was the lead writer that he's so talented. But it took we got turned down by 24, New York publishing houses over the course of a year before finally, it was picked up by portfolio a division of Penguin Random House. So, you know, it turned out we found the right partner, right, you know, in when that was ready to happen and happen. So, so that was good. But that's really how it came about. We both kind of felt like this is a message that is needed right now. And, and that it was a good time for it. And we felt it would be accepted. And yeah, that's, that's really how it came about.

Claire Davis 7:54

So, and for anyone who hasn't read this book, and like I said, please go out, grab it today. The Go Giver is phenomenal. It's a story. It's a parable about a young man named Joe. He's struggling to achieve success in his sales career, he feels stuck, he feels frustrated. And then he meets him a wise man named Pindar, who teaches him not just like sales success, but the five laws of stratospheric success. Okay. And, you know, I think what really struck me about the way that you you share this story, and yes, I'm dangling those five laws, so don't worry, we'll get to that in just a minute. But I think what really struck me about your story is that I felt like so many of us can relate to being Joe, to feeling like we're in Joe's shoes. In fact, a lot of the lot of the thoughts Joe thinks when he initially meets Pindar about how he's trying to land this major client, he's got this great big competitor who's just crushing it, and he can't figure out how to unlock that success for himself. And lo and behold, it's the end of the month. And here come, here comes quota, right, we're down to the wire. And so for me, Joe was a very personal character, because I think, especially in medical sales, we've all felt that crush, but also the the next level of that is that it's not just have you, you know, sold your certain amount that you need to or have you have you landed the certain amount of counts, you need to, you know, that there's a patient on the other end of that. And so it's sort of this double layer of pressure, right. So I'd love to talk a little bit about if I'd love to know, rather, if you felt like Joe, at any point in your career, and how sort of these laws emerged for you to eventually write about them.

Bob Berg 9:47

Yeah, I was definitely Joe. Absolutely. And I think a lot of people, as you said, have been that's kind of why we named them Joe. And if if he was a woman, it would have been Josephine like, you know that The average Joe or Josephine, we've all been there, right? Yeah. And with you know, with me it was that I had gotten into sales after a short career in broadcasting. And I did okay, in sales I had studied, I have learned it and did well. But a couple years into it, I went to work for another company selling a high ticket item. And I was not doing well, I started out in a slump and was having trouble getting out of it and, and the more I focused on myself and getting out of my slump, the less I thought about the customers and more of a slump, I were right. So, so at one point, I came back to the office, and I must have had a really disgusted, depressed look on my face. When one of the older people at the company, he was not the sales department, I think he was an engineer or something. But he was one of these guys, we've all known that, you know, he didn't say much. But whenever he did, it was always something profound. And so fortunately, I think he saw me, sort of as Gus, in the story, saw Joe in the book is that kind of young, up and coming ambitious, aggressive potential, but not in any way, fulfilling his potential because his focus was on the wrong place. And mine was as well. And this, this older guy said to me, Berg, he was a last name kind of guy. He said, Berg, can I give you some advice? And I said, Sure, please do I need it. He said, If you want to make a lot of money in sales, he said, don't have making money as your target, your target is serving others. Now when you hit the target, you'll get a reward. And that reward will come in the form of money, and you can do with that money, whatever you choose. But never forget, he said, the money is simply the reward for hitting the target. It isn't the target itself. Your target is serving others. And you know, Claire, that's kind of when it hit me that great salesmanship is never about the salesperson. Great salesmanship is never actually about the product or the service. As important as those are. That's not what it's about. Great salesmanship is about the other person, it's that person whose life you're trying to add value to. In a sense, you could say it's about that other person's life being better, just because you are part of it. And I think that when we can approach sales from that foundational premise, now we're really nine steps ahead of the game in a 10 step game.

Claire Davis 12:38

Yeah. Oh, wow. That's really powerful. And, you know, for every, for most people listening to this, they're measured by the numbers, right? How much money they bring in, how many accounts that they get. But at the end of the day, I don't feel that that gives many people fulfillment in the long term. Like, what kind of impact have you made on other people? In fact, there's a some, there's this axiom I love and it's the, it took me years to understand it, and it was the the wisest, or the kindest, to the raw. And I thought, Well, why would that be one of the wisest be like over it, and so done with giving out free information and advice. But no, I think that when we're so new in anything we do we have those blinders on. And often the blinders can be, yes, success is measured one way and your role, but really long term when it comes to your life, is that really success? And so I love how your book taps right into that mentality. So can we start with maybe one? Well, first, I'd love to introduce what the five laws are. And then can we talk a little bit about how someone can really start to think today about implementing these themes into the way that they do business. And so for the five laws of stratospheric success, there the law of value, the law of compensation, the law of influence, the law of authenticity, which I know is a hot topic here on LinkedIn, and the law of receptivity. So let's talk about the law of value for people can you can you kind of break that open? What that means to you?

Bob Berg 14:31

Sure. Can and if you don't mind, can I Yeah. Can I put that against, if you will, the the the actual what we would call the premise of the Go Giver, and then why those those laws, including the first one would be so important as part of it.

Claire Davis 14:50

Absolutely. You can do whatever you want. Yes, please. That'd be great.

Bob Berg 14:57

So we would say it's this. It's the At shifting your focus, okay, just like that gentleman had me do right from from years ago, it's shifting your focus from getting to giving. Now, when we say giving in this context, we simply mean constantly and consistently providing immense value to others. Understanding that doing so is not only, as you said, a more fulfilling way of conducting business, it also happens to be the most financially profitable way as well. But not for any kind of rah rah, you know, woowoo, magical, mystical, you know, type of reasons, it actually makes very logical, very rational sense. Because when you're that person, who can take your focus off of yourself, and place it onto serving others, right, discovering what they need, what they want, what they desire, when you can move your focus off of yourself and onto helping them solve their problems and challenges. When you can take your focus off of yourself and make it all about moving them closer to happiness. Well, people feel good about you, they feel great about you, they want to get to know you, they like you, they trust you, they want to be in relationship with you, they want to do business with you, they certainly want to tell others all about you. So it's actually there's nothing self sacrificial or self harming. In taking your focus off yourself. You know, one thing I say, whenever I speak at sales conferences, one of the first things I will say is this, nobody's going to do business with you, because you have a quota to meet, they're not going to do business with you, because you need the money. And they're not going to do business with you just because you're a really nice person. Right? Ultimately, they're going to do business with you only because they believe that they will be better off by doing so than by not doing so. And really, I can't think of any other reason why anyone would do business with you or with me or with anyone else other than for that reason. So when we say don't focus on the quota, it doesn't mean you don't have a quota, it doesn't mean you shouldn't hit your quota, you hopefully are gonna, it's just that the other person is not going to buy from you because of your quota. So it can't be about your quota. It can't be about your quota, it has got to be about how it's going to provide value to them. Once we understand that, now, the five laws we talked about, are going to make, you know, a lot of sense. So the first one is you said the law of value. In this one, this is sort of the foundational law. And it says that your true worth is determined by how much more you give in value than you take in payment. Now when you first hear this, it's a little counterintuitive sounding what give more in value than I take in payment. Isn't that a recipe for bankruptcy? But no, we simply have to understand the difference between price and value price is $1. Figure it's $1 amount. It's finite, it is what it is. Value, on the other hand is the relative worth or desirability of a thing of something to the end user or beholder? In other words, what is it about this thing, this product service concept idea, what what have you that bring so much worth or value to another person, that they will willingly exchange their money for this and be ecstatic that they did, while you also make a very, very healthy profit. And part of that value is not just the intrinsic value of what you're selling, which is, of course, very important. But it's the entire experience you provide. It's the feeling that they have through doing business with you. And this is what separates you from your competition, because let's face it, most people have no I mean, all the products are generally good, right? And so, you know, what makes them really pay attention to you what, you know, what takes price out of the issue? What takes the you know, it puts you in the forefront? Well, it's that they're buying from you. Yeah, they're buying from you before they're buying from your company. Claire Davis 19:09 And, you know, just to jump in there, too. I think something that a lot that I hear a lot of my folks struggling with is okay, Claire, I know I have to give value, right? I know, I have to you know, say for example, we're in front of a doctor and we're in medical sales or in front of a doctor and we know we've got this great product, but we know that it goes beyond that we want them to buy into us. And we want to help them just beyond what we're trying to sell like you're sharing. What are some of those things that that are a value that they're not typically thinking of?

Bob Berg 19:44

So when it comes down to to that what we call extrinsic value that which is over and above the actual product or service, you've got to be that additional value. Okay, so how do you communicate that? Yeah. Well, the good news As if there are dozens if not hundreds of ways to, but they tend to come down to five, what John and I call elements of value. And these elements of value are excellence, consistency, attention, empathy, and appreciation. And to the degree that that you can communicate one or more, hopefully all five of those, at every single touch point with every single person that you deal with in that company. So whether it's the whether it's the doctor himself or herself, whether it's the, you know, the person at the desk, or whether it's, you know, whomever, okay, to the degree that you can communicate those five elements of value at every touchpoint from the initial time you meet them, through the the relationship building process, the follow up the follow through, and the sales process and referral process. That's the degree to which you will take price and competition out of the picture. But each of those five are kind of a seminar in itself. But as you can imagine, the you know, you though, all those five, you can figure out, you know, you can figure are all very important excellence, consistency, attention, empathy, and appreciation.

Claire Davis 21:19

You should see the book I have written in every single margin, I'm still taking notes. Those are great. Okay. So, should we talk a little bit about how that feeds into the law of compensation?

Bob Berg 21:34

Yeah, so the law of compensation is, says that your income is determined by how many people you serve, and serve them. So now we're law number one, talked about giving more in value than you take in payment. Law. Number two tells us, the more people whose lives you touch with that exceptional value, the more money with which you'll be rewarded. This is what Nicole Martin the CEO in the story, told Joe, remember that, you know, the law of value that represents your potential income, but it's not enough to serve one. Customer one doctor one, what have you, okay, yeah. Your income is really a matter of, of impact. How many lives are you touching? Now, of course, every time you touch one doctor's life, you're actually touching the lives of many, many, many people. But so to the degree that you're doing so that's the degree that your income grows and grows. And so, you know, we could say exceptional value, plus significant reach equals very high compensation.

Claire Davis 22:40

I heard yesterday, someone mentioned that medical sales was one of the least scalable types of selling. And it's interesting, because I think whenever we have, whenever we're in the, in the sales seat, like we're like you said, if you touching one doctor's life, you're sharing that influence with all of their patients, right, who should potentially use what you're selling. But I feel like there must be some other ways that people can think about scaling the impact that they have, can you share a couple of ideas with us on that?

Speaker 2 23:13

Well, first, you know, having a referral based business is a big help, because when you think of it referrals have a number of benefits to them. One is that it's easier to set the appointment, because instead of all the different costs, you know, calls you have to make to finally get an appointment with a referral, you're going in on borrowed influence. So it's simply easier to you know, to get that appointment in the first place. And obviously, the more people you're in front of the more sales are going to take place. The next benefit is that with a referred prospect price is less of an issue doesn't mean it's a non issue or not an issue, but because of the borrowed influence. You're already positioned as a professional, you're already positioned as someone who this other doctor has spoken up for, right. And so you can now sell on high value rather than low price. You know, the thing is, when you sell on low price, your commodity, right, when you sell on high value, you are a resource. The next benefit of a referred prospect is that it's just so much easier to complete the transaction. This goes this is a result of borrowed trust, or what we call vicarious experience. So no, this doctor has never done business with you personally, but someone who he or she knows likes and trusts said, this is the only person you need to see. Absolutely. Not only is the product wonderful, but they'll take great care of you. They're on if the company is right and so forth. So makes it so much easier. And then the fourth benefit of a referred prospect is that that's the in their world, they see you as a sales professional medical sales professional who, that's how you do business, because that's how they met you. So in their world, you meet your your doctor clients through referral, you sell on high value rather than low price, you complete the transaction, and then you are referred to others as part of the process.

Claire Davis 25:21

Yep. You know, so at traction resume, we help position people like they are a, a brand of one, they're no longer commodities, because a lot of times when we are on the job market, it can feel very much like commodity based selling, when you're trying to get yourself into that next job. But really, you everyone, I really want everyone to hear this and hear what Bob's saying today, because you are truly a category of one. And if you share these kinds of things about yourself, that's how you can represent it. In fact, you know, things that we see all the time on resumes, for example, would be like, you know, a trusted advisor, we see 15 years of experience, we see all the same things, which then you're selling on this commodity basis, because it's all you know, how many years do you have? Well, okay, if you have 12 years, he has 13 years, well, then the 13 year guy is going to win, right? So. But I think that this is something that people can really leverage. Because when you have this kind of influence, you do business on a referral basis, and you build those kinds of relationships to a point where it doesn't matter what you have anymore, people will let you in the door to talk about it. I think that's where people can really start to set themselves apart even further. So that they are that category of one. So that's a beautiful way to position yourself.

Bob Berg 26:57

I think they did it beautifully. So yeah, absolutely.

Claire Davis 27:00

Okay, so let's talk about the the law of influence.

Bob Berg 27:04

Okay. Yeah, the law of influences, your influence is determined by how abundantly you place other people's interests first. Now, so let me clarify right away, when we say place the other person's interests first, we do not mean that you should be a doormat that you should be a martyr, or that you should be self sacrificial. That's not what we're saying. It's simply as, as Joe learned from several of the mentors in the story, and as we alluded to earlier, the golden rule of business, certainly of sales, is that again, all things being equal people do business with and refer business to those people they know, like, and trust. And you know what, there's no faster, more powerful or more effective way to elicit those feelings toward you and others, than by genuinely moving from that I focus or me focus to that other focus, or as Sam, one of the mentors in the story, advise Joe, to make your win all about the other person's win.

Claire Davis 28:07

Oh, that's powerful. And I think it leads right into the next one, which is the law of authentic authenticity, because, like you shared, you know, even when you're describing it, like you can feel the difference between be concerned about them to be genuinely interested in what they care about, and what is important to them. So can you can you dive into authenticity a little bit?

Bob Berg 28:32

Sure. So So, the law of authenticity says the most valuable gift you have to offer is yourself. Now in this part of the story, Deborah Davenport, she shared a lesson she had learned early in her career. My apologies. Oh, that's okay. Her career and had his that all the skills in the world, the sales skills, technical skills, people skills, as important as they are in they are very, very important. They're also often not if you don't come at it from I am so sorry. My phone is actually on. I checked, it's on the side.

Claire Davis 29:16

That's our computers. Yeah, sorry about that. We get that too. There's a scene my husband and I laugh about often and it's from the office. And the intern creates an app where if you get a phone call, you also get a fax in a tweet and a message. I feel like that's how we operate here. Yeah, it rings once someone's knocking on the door. I'm getting a text. There goes the fax machine.

Bob Berg 29:46

Barking catch me. Right. And so yeah, so all the skills in the world. They're out there. They're so important, but they're also all for naught. If you don't come at it from your true authentic core. Mm. But when you do, when you show up as yourself day after day, week, after week, month after month, people feel good about you. They also feel comfortable with you. And most importantly, they feel safe. And that's so important when it comes to building and maintaining trust. Why? Because people really want to make sense of human nature says we want to make sense of our world. Yet we live in a world that often doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Lisa doesn't seem to, right. We we crave consistency. In a world that's often very inconsistent. So when we show up as ourselves, you know, it's just such an advantage. Now, here's the thing, though, to that I think is important. I believe Claire, and I think this has really been more so with the the advent of social media, the term authenticity has sort of morphed into some kind of a new thing that anything goes as long as you're authentic, you know, there's no limitations on what you can say or do. There's no boundaries, there's no, you can be a idiot, but you're authentic. So it's okay. You know, I gotta tell you, I disagree with that, you know, this is like, this is the person who says, you know, why have anger issues, and I yell at people a lot. And if I were to act any differently, that wouldn't be authentic of me. Know, what it means is this person has an authentic problem that they need to authentically work on in order to become a better, higher, more effective, authentic version of themselves. So, you know, I think we have to understand that you know, what authenticity, my definition, I'm not saying I'm right, but it's my definition of authenticity is simply acting congruently with your values.

Claire Davis 32:06

I think when we do that, we're on the right track. You know, that's, that's a great point, I wonder if it would be really interesting to see, you know, as as much focus, as we put on, like personality tests, and the DISC assessment and the strengths finder, I wonder if companies now are putting in teams are putting as much emphasis on identifying what our personal values are. And maybe they should be I know, when I was in the field, that wasn't something that was really part of the training or the team building. But I feel like that's a really incredible thing. And we often miss that key. But if we could focus on that a little better, it helped us represent ourselves and to actually use that authenticity in the way that should be.

Bob Berg 32:51

Well, and you also know if the, you know, the values of the company and the leadership are aligned with the values of the sales professional, and representative, and so forth. So I think when there's a congruently organization wide, that doesn't mean everybody's the same. Of course, not. We're all individuals, but there's got to be a sense of the sense of values that are, you know, where everybody's facing the same direction.

Claire Davis 33:16

Yeah. Yeah. At least what it says on the mission statement on the website, we got whatever,

Bob Berg 33:23

which most people probably don't even know what it is. An

Claire Davis 33:27

so let's talk about that last law, because it was funny when it was introduced in the text in the book, and I was reading and I was listening to the book as well. It is, I shouted it right out. And I don't know if it's because I'm immersed in LinkedIn, and people are talking about this all the time, at least the law of reciprocity, but can you talk about the law of receptivity?

Bob Berg 33:49

Sure. So the law of receptivity says that the key to effective giving is to stay open to receiving what does this mean? It's, it's, it's really nothing more than understanding that yeah, you breathe out. You've also got to breathe in. It's not one or the other. It's an and it's both you breathe out carbon dioxide, and you breathe in oxygen, you breathe out which is giving you breathe in which is receiving. Giving and Receiving are not opposite concepts. They're really two sides of the very same coin and they operate in tandem. The challenge Claire is that this is not the message we get from the world around us. Typically, messages about prospect what let's put it this way, there is such an anti prosperity theme in the world to firemen will, it's crazy. You know, people look down their noses at people who are making a lot of Money is oh, they must have done something wrong to get there, they must have built their fortune on the backs of others or they must be dishonest or they must. Now, of course, it's a big world, lots of people do things we don't like, but no to the glory, especially to the degree that you're working in a situation where no one's forced to do business with you. Right, they do it on their own volition because they believe they're gonna benefit. The only way you can make a lot of money is by providing a lot of value to a lot of people, you can't do it any other way. Remember, they're not buying so you meet your quota they're buying because they're meeting their needs. Okay? And they see you as the best, most appropriate way for that to happen. But because of these anti prosperity messages that we have, from everything from upbringing, environment, schooling, news, media, television shows, movies, sir, certainly social media, look at all the horrible anti prosperity messages out there. It gets into a person's head, and and insidiously not the conscious that we could deal with, but the unconscious. And so if you know, if you grow up in you're receiving messages from all over the place, that you know, evil money, and this and that no dishonest and this, but you you grow up being taught values of truth and honesty and integrity and kindness and all those things. And now you find yourself on the verge of making a lot of money. Well, there's a real disconnect there. Yes, right. Sure. And so we this is why I believe that we have got to absolutely study make a study of prosperity. And there are great people out there great teachers who this is all they speak on a blog on it, they do videos on it, they have all these different people like Randy Gage, people like Sharon Lechter. People like David Nagle, people like Ken Honda, people like Elon Rogen, and there's so many others who do such a wonderful job. And, you know, I read their blogs, I watched their videos, because we all have to do with the garbage, the anti prosperity, garbage is out there all over the place. So we need to actively seek out that good healthy, pro prosperity, pro abundance information. Here's the thing. Why. So here's the thing, like, I know, I'm

Claire Davis 37:26

leaning in, I'm leaning in. Late on me, my

Bob Berg 37:30

students always searching so you know, but but my, my feeling is this, that that what we need to understand is it's not? Are you a giver, or a receiver? You're a giver? And a receiver. Yeah, got it. It's got to be both. But here's what we all do know, the given comes first. This is, this is universal law. These are laws of nature of human nature of economic nature, of physical nature, clarity, you know, we plant before we harvest. Right, we so before we reap, we give, before we receive, you know, it's like Pindar said to the protege job. Early in the story, you know, some people approach a fireplace with the, the the idea of First you give me some heat and some fire, then I'll throw on some logs and some newspaper enlightenment, well, it doesn't work that way. Imagine going to a bank and saying, hey, you know, I'd like to open up an account here. But first, give me an interest payment. No, life doesn't work that way. Right. And so we've got to respect the truths. So, but but I would say this, you know, when you're out there, you know, I mean, just doing what you're doing. You're providing such immense value to the world. Every time a doctor decides to do business with you, you're helping him or her to help their clients. Right? I'll never forget the time I was a while I was reading a book written by a friend of mine. Her name is Lisa Earl McLeod. She wrote a book called leading with noble purpose and then selling with noble purpose. And she talked about the time that she was, she was brought into a pharmaceutical company to discover why the top producers were the top producers. And she was speaking with one person who was like second in the entire nation. I'm just and it done okay, for a few years, then all of a sudden, like last two years, she was right. And she says, what, what was it? What was the difference maker? She says, so one day, I'm in a doctor's office. I had checked in with the receptionist, took my seat, and a woman came over, not elderly but kind of getting up there. And she came over to her and says, Did I hear you say that that you're a sales rep with and she named the company? She goes Yes, she's just Yes, I am. Aren't you the the producers often she names certain medication she said, Yes, we are. And she's, the woman said, I gotta tell you, you gave me my life back. I was, you know, I was always in pain, and I was tired, and I couldn't get out of bed. My grandchildren couldn't play with me. And we have no relationship. But she said, once I went on this medication, she started telling the story, but now she's playing with her grandchildren, and take my eye out everywhere. And she said, and so this woman says to the rep says to Lisa, Lisa, at that point, I realized I wasn't in the business of selling pharmaceuticals. I was in the business of giving people their lives back. Yeah. Wow. Right. So when you think about what you're doing, you've you've you're giving so much value that you've earned the right not entitlement, the right to receive, you've got to be able to allow yourself to do that.

Claire Davis 40:59

Oh, wow, that's so powerful. And you're right, there is this mental block, I think for a lot of us and where you feel like, if I should be open to higher salary, accepting bonus, expecting and anticipating to receive for my efforts, like it's wrong, or it's, it's, it's, it's not true, or it's not, you know, genuine or worthy. But really, having been in a similar situation to that patient myself. It is worthy, and without, without people who are going at it day after day, to really work that funnel, and to really serve that physician and to really nurture that office and to make sure that they have their, you know, trays clean for before every procedure and they have sample stock for every office that needs them and tests at the ready, in my case, right and pathology with that wonderful, but wonderful, wild world of pathology that it is. Without that someone on the other end yourself, your friend, your friend's grandmother may not be able to receive that care and have that time with those grandchildren. Right? Yeah. That's incredible.

Bob Berg 42:34

When you start questioning your worthiness as to receiving just question your premise. Why? Why wouldn't I when I'm providing such an amazing service? Would I not just embrace receiving? Yeah.

Claire Davis 42:49

Oh, this is I'm getting chills in this conversation. Okay, so, Bob, I know we're about to the hour here. I want to give a quick opportunity for maybe you to chat a little bit about where people can engage with you further can find out more so that if they want to start implementing the Go Giver mentality in their life, and then their business? How should they go about it? Where do they find you?

Bob Berg 43:17

Yeah, best way is just Berg. Berg.com I'm a very simple man. Enough to have gotten the berg.com.

Claire Davis 43:25

Well done. I wish I got a Davis. Yeah, well, yeah.

Bob Berg 43:33

And so while they're there, they can if they'd like, they can download any of the books on the series on the go giver series to see if they, they can download the first chapter to see if they like it, then click there. While they're there, they can subscribe to my daily impact email. I send those out five days a week. Oh, wow. So yeah, they go to berg.com. There'll be a little annoying pop up thingy that tells them they can subscribe to it. Yeah, we just suggest that.

Claire Davis 43:59

Awesome. Well, you guys don't Don't miss out. I know that. Bob, I am so grateful to have you on the show today. I know that I shared with you that your book was very formative for us, personally, professionally, certainly in my business. And I'm just so thrilled that you not only have these incredible resources in the world but also that you continue to put them out there guys, there are multiple Go Giver books. We've got you know, incredible conferences that Bob is doing. And now I'm definitely going to subscribe subscribe to your newsletter, which I did not know about before. So thank you so much for joining me today. I cannot tell you how grateful I am and I really appreciate your time.

Bob Berg 44:42

Well, this has been a pleasure and your joy Keep up the great work.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

How to Invest in Yourself

AI-Generated Transcript below. There may be errors.

Claire Davis 0:11

Hey everybody, it's Claire Davis and Loren Greiff. And welcome back to another episode of today's medical sales leader. I am so excited to have Lauren with me. If you don't know Lauren yet, let me tell you a couple of reasons why you must today and go follow her and go become as big of a fan of Lauren as I am. So few of many ever embarked on their job search ever thinking, Oh, this is gonna be a blast. Most of it go into what Lauren would call root canal mode, right? Lots of pain. So Lauren graves mission is to change that for you. And others who think that transitioning to your next position can't be powerful, effective, rewarding, and actually fun. So she has a C suite and executive level career consultancy. It's called portfolio rocket. And it's based on the curriculum that she created after more than 30 years in the corporate recruiting of top talent for Fortune 500 companies, and as a boutique direct to consumer for brands and everything in between. So Lauren's with me today. And what I absolutely love about her is she lives and breathes the credo that candidates, good top talent are found. They're found. It's not just about going out and grabbing that job. It's about positioning yourself in a place of power and authenticity, so that you light up like a beacon, and that you were found as a top hireable talent. So Lauren, thank you so much for being here with me today. You know, I love you. How are things going over there? We I promise we finally press record after chit chatting for like 45 minutes we've got to get we've got to get down to the work here. But today, we could talk about a million things. But if you are living and breathing in the United States right now, you know that layoffs are at an all time high and something else that Lauren brought to my attention that the C suite is at its fastest rate of churn ever. Lauren, what were you saying it's 40 months for a CMO?

Loren Greiff 2:22

For CMO. The estimated tenure is about 40 months, varying degrees of tenure at the CEO, CFO CIO CTO level, but you can pretty much say anywhere depending on the size of the company, right? And anywhere between 357 years. So even though this is a lot of turnover, and it's a lot of turnover at the top. And even if you're not at the top, the point that I'm trying to make here is that the shakedown is real. Every time there's that change of command, the musical C suite chairs. Somebody is impacted. Yeah. Yeah. And whether it's layoff or rewards, the they have a synergistic partnership, right. They work oftentimes in tandem. Oh, yeah. You know, I could tell you, hey, that's coming to an end. Yeah. But it's not.

Claire Davis 3:31

So we're thinking this isn't just a fluke of the market. It's not something that seasonal, this is something we're gonna see time and time again, across industries,

Loren Greiff 3:41

across industries, cross sizes of companies, whether they'd be startups or enterprises. And it's, it's the new normal. I mean, it really is, and in this honestly, isn't really that surprising. It's been going on for a long time, whether it was pre pandemic, pandemic, post pandemic, there are always, always always changes in the marketplace. And for people like you and me, Claire, we're studying this stuff. Like our life depended on it because it does, if we're not forecasting that information to our clients, we're not doing right by preparing them for what they can overcome. The circumstances aren't going to are aren't going to change because we want them to the idea here is to find strategies to overcome them, whether it be ageism, whether it be a lack of skills, whether it be competition, whether it be compensation, whatever those are, they're not just going to vaporize, we have to we have to be smarter about how we approach them.

Claire Davis 4:52

Right. It's, it's a little bit refreshing to me and in a in an in one way. Of course you know it is sort of jarring to know that the leadership of these major companies and healthcare certainly included. So if you're listening here and you're working at Medtronic, or Zimmer or Takeda, you know that this kind of stuff is happening to your organization to right, we see these things happening in the market right now. And when this has been recorded, this is in February of 2023. And the thing for me that is refreshing is that it also brings to light and I think, is empowering people to say, Hey, okay, so if the guarantee isn't going to be with the current company, where I'm spending time, maybe what I need to be doing is investing in myself as a professional, with my personal brand, with my network with the message that I'm sharing with the world, maybe with my leadership training. So you know, when we were talking a little bit before the show, and you mentioned this, to me about the rapid change of the C suite. You know, there's a lot of corporate leadership training, there are a lot of offerings like this, where once you get to a certain level, you're able to tap into some of these resources. But would you say that it is more important now to invest in these kinds of things, on your own terms, like going into public speaking, you know, coaching for yourself and going into executive leadership and presence and maybe project management PMP? Is this some are these kinds of things that people should be looking about investing outside of what their company offers.

Loren Greiff 6:34

So I feel really strongly about this. I mean, I'm almost like ready to stand up at my desk. Come on over. Yeah. Here's the thing. The higher you get, the more important the investment. Yeah, and the reason for that is because if you're involved in the work world, and maybe you're looking or you're in transition, the skills at a certain point, are pretty parity. The difference makers are in the type of leader you are, and how much you have developed yourself. Success isn't something that gets pursued out here in this area, in who you are becoming on a day to day basis. And your team, your company, your compadres, your stakeholders, your private equity partners, they know that so you can invest in the skills and I'm never gonna say don't, but you have to also fill fill the other areas that are surrounding that, which includes building those reports, obviously, your networks, all of this is is so vital, because people feel that they feel that they know that and you can have the resume as a placeholder, but then eventually they're gonna eat you. Right? And they're gonna want to know is what I'm seeing here.

Claire Davis 8:30

The experience that I'm having in real life some of those areas in we sort of touched on them before you know when you're trying to focus not on the job searching not on success as this external ring this external brass ring you get, but focusing internally on a few of the factors that you can grow in leadership is one what are some others you mentioned networking, huh?

Loren Greiff 8:55

Totally. I mean, these these, I'm like almost afraid to share them because they sound like no brainers. Your your communication style, both verbally, and the one that really kills me is the written Oh my god. Serious. Yeah. You think like writing a good thank you note would be would be a difficult thing to do. Most people don't don't realize how busy other people are and have scannable that that communication needs to be in a good subject line not I'm following up. Oh, yes. Snore fast. Yeah, no, it's got you've got to be able to use the tools. Every single touchpoint is another piece of communication that tells somebody something about you, good or bad, right? So they talk about your personal brand. And so if you're signing off your emails, and it's dry and boring, and there's no PS, and there's no like wink in there, you're telling them your dry and boring your cookie cutter, you're just like every other candidate.

Claire Davis 10:14

Ah, there it is. That's the thing. And it's not. I think sometimes we feel like oh, shoot, you know, we see this new information on maybe how to write a stellar email that makes people leap through their computer to get in touch with you. And we think, oh, gosh, I'm doing it wrong. It's not wrong. It's vanilla. It's bland. And the thing is, is there are resources out there that aren't just for marketers, right? I was, I was talking with someone the other day. And they said, Well, you're a writer, you've been writing, you know, you know, all the writing secrets and have done probably, since you were in your 20s. And so basically, right now, no, just kidding, I'm not actually my toys. But anyway, so um, you know, I still take writing classes, you know, I think that it's worth wherever you are in this, whatever stage you are in the game, to continue to enhance your skill set. Last year was the first time I had ever taken a public speaking course. It blew my mind. people noticed, I know, you know who I'm talking about. It's our best buddy, Brendan, right. Or Brendan, I tagged him and, gosh, it. But you know, it wasn't until today. It wasn't until this stage in my life, which now I've got a business, and I'm not in that job seeker realm, that I'm realizing Holy smokes. If I would have known, then what I know now, I would have taken copywriting courses, I would have taken SEO, I would have taken medical terminology courses, I would have done much more public speaking and confidence training, because that's what would have set me apart. It's not that I was doing it wrong. But I want to stand out. And that's where I think there's a huge opportunity for people because as there are the shifting sands in the marketplace, and certainly they're shifting sands in the health care market, if any, anybody here who's recently been laid off, or you're starting to hear less and less from your boss these days, or you're seeing some of the C suite, leadership change hands, take note, now is the time to get some of this stuff under your belt so that you can create the sort of evergreen the sort of additional value that you are as a leader and as a professional, that's not going to go stale. It doesn't it's not determined by what company you work for. So I love this idea. Something else I heard you talk about, on your recent show with Vamsi. Incredible leader as well, was that you don't even use the term dream job. So let's, let's pivot into that. Let's pivot into why we don't even talk about dream job as a reality anymore. So tell me your take.

Loren Greiff 13:09

Okay. So, first of all, you have to know I'm always going to be anti cliche. So anytime there's a cliche, I I'm like, gonna blow it up. That's just part of who I am. So if something is the same, the same, the same? It's funny. I've been thinking about this. I'm like, ready to pull the trigger on this? I don't know if you've been seeing all these carousels on LinkedIn. I call them the black box boys. Yes. And I'm like, Oh, my God, everybody's just jumping on this bandwagon because this person proved it out. And now I'm just gonna copy copy, copy, copy, copy. I'm not interested, right? Like not. So if you also are jumping on the cliche that there actually is a dream job. Forget it. Forget it, not just because it's so transient in the marketplace. But the idea that it's this final destination, that there is this idea out there. I mean, the dream job that I had 10 years ago doesn't even look anything close to what it looks like now, right? And this it, I believe, cements this idea that once you get there, you're done. You're done. I got my dream job done. Yeah. And, like, I don't have to do much more because I won my prize. It doesn't work like that. You can have this. This is a stepping stone to this. This is a pivot to that this is a new experience to explore X, Y or Z. But this idea that this is There is a hard and fast place that you're supposed to land. I really just rubs me it's like, like nails on a chalkboard. It sends the message, I think, to each one of us that I don't need to keep playing in the game. And the game.

Claire Davis 15:27

Yeah, it's, I think, I think you're right. To me, it feels incredibly limiting. And I'll give you a story. So I was working with this gentleman not so long ago. And he was laid off from his company, and he calls me he's walking on the beach. And he calls me and he's like, Claire, I just got laid off. Worst thing ever. The company, you know, really, it was raw, it was rough. Let go. So I want to go into find another similar role. Right, but but to be honest, between you and me in the sand and the ocean waves here. I'm bored. But I know that this is what I'm good at. I know, this is what my title is. So this is where I'm going to stay. I said, Okay, and so we got that we got the, you know, the resume, Dan, we did LinkedIn. And then we started talking a little bit about who he is, as a unique, uniquely valued professional, and what kind of things he actually brings to the table, like, what, what are the moments when people say, you know, what, um, you really helped me in this area, it's not really exactly related to selling a specific diagnostic oncology product. But this is where you had an impact for me. And we started leaning into that, and leaning into that, and he got more interested and we started talking about content on LinkedIn, we started talking about marketing, and this idea of going evergreen, with your career with your brand with your presence. And through the action through not being tied to what he was supposed to do what his dream job was a dream job was supposed to be, he found that there was this entire other world in commercialization that lit him up, like a like a firework. And, sure, shoot, and that's what he's doing now. And he's absolutely crushing it. He's like, tapped into this vein of x of exceptional excellence, that he didn't even know was there. Because he was he started to invest in himself. And it emerged because that's just, it was in him all along. But he hadn't taken the time until the investment in Himself in His branding, to even know that that was, that was a possibility for him.

Loren Greiff 17:44

Right? And I want you to for me, and any of your other listeners, put evergreen in context, what are you hinting at when you talk about evergreen just so I can hear? Yes.

Claire Davis 18:00

Yes. So for me, an evergreen career is one where you aren't in this roller coaster of, I'm looking for a job, I need a job or I have a job and I need a job. It's instead one where you're continually nurturing. You're continually showcasing who you are as a professional, growing as a professional and networking so that the opportunities don't stop. It doesn't, it doesn't just become this roller coaster. It's evergreen, like a tree that's green all year round. And being in Spokane, we have a lot of examples of those. And for me, what I've found is when my clients really embrace and when I had the opportunity after far too many layoffs, I know, I know, you know, the storyline was that I was hit with the realization that the company could not guarantee stability in my career, that career stability is a myth. And no one wants to talk about that, because

Loren Greiff 19:02

And no one wants to talk about that, because I'm gonna I'm going to be the whistleblower. It's my all bought into it, right. And we all think, which is part of the equation of that dream job is that when I have my job, it also is code for I have security because I've arrived and I've, I've sealed the deal. And I think that that that the paradigm, and I hate this cliche, you know, the paradigm shift, but the adoption of and the acceptance around, I can't get too comfortable. I can invest. But at the same time that I'm investing in the company that I'm currently at, I also have a responsibility as somebody who is signing up to be a change maker or transforming this industry or somebody who's a quote unquote thought leader or just somebody that loves their loves what they do. Yeah. to also invest in ourselves. Yeah, one of the things that I talked about in the episode that I did yesterday with Vamsi was there's actually a guideline that suggests to people in the professional world, how much they should put aside in their compensation for their personal development. Schramm, scram actually, like gives us a tool, and they 5% of your overall compensation should be allocated to skills development, personal development, making sure that you're not atrophying with within your areas of expertise. Who does that? Yeah,

Claire Davis 20:54

Yeah, I know.

Loren Greiff 20:56

There's a vacation budget. Yeah. Right. There is in my house. Right?

Claire Davis 21:01

Like, yeah, I think this is a brilliant, a brilliant concept. I think 5% is a perfect place to start. And once at least, I can say that once I have had the chance to do some of this. And, and as a, as a business owner. For me, it became more apparent because I'm wearing all the hats, many of which I never had before, right? Entrepreneurship found me suddenly out of this business, I figured out how to run it. So for me, investing was in that vein, but it started to highlight other ways that I could level up to provide more value to people that I'm working with. Oh, my goodness, Lauren, seriously, if I had known this stuff when I was still in the field. So Alex, we're mostly talking about this. Yeah, right. I mean, I wish we I wish we had known this before. And he's he talks about it in terms of education, and taking, I think, even up to maybe 10% or so, of the, of the finances that you can, per year, to reinvest in yourself, because when you take care of this, everything else starts to become a little bit more clear.

Loren Greiff 22:15

Totally, I don't know why the reason? I don't know why there is resistance. I don't know why there would be. But there is. And I think it's based on another lie, which is, oh, I shouldn't spend that money on myself. I shouldn't you know, that's, that's so indulgent. You know, and, and I asked this question all the time, are you you know, where else are you going to get the best ROI because your the best ROI of your life isn't going to come from a vacation or a pair of shoes, or even, you know, necessarily, from spending a lot of money on your house. It's, it's really going to come from what you what you're making of yourself and the contribution that you're here to deliver on. Yep. And, and at the end of the day, and we're seeing a lot of this happening also at the C suite where people are finally waking up and saying, you know, what, my time is more valuable than my, my title. And my, my, my compensation, I need that time. need that time?

Claire Davis 23:38

I wonder, too, if time is also a limiting factor for many, and not feeling deserving of spending that time on growing in a certain area, versus giving it to work, giving it to family, giving it to others, right, because, yes, it's important to do those things. But I think we all know, I mean, that when we don't take care of ourselves, we have less to give others in the first place. I wonder if it's that feeling of deserving like I'm just I'm a CEO, I'm supposed to have all the answers. And that's why I sit down yes,

Loren Greiff 24:18

And that's why I sit down yes, that's just BS, because anybody that thinks that they have all the answers, a couple of rude awakenings. You got to start with a level of humility, because if you are really of the mind that you are a servant leader, and you buy into this idea of continuous learning, it starts with you. You being CEO, you being whoever you are, and and that's and that's never going to change now. You got to walk the talk with it.

Claire Davis 24:57

Right. Right, exactly. And I think And I wonder too, if vulnerability plays a part here, because part of you must say, Okay, I need to be able to run this part of my business, it's not my specialty or I'm uncomfortable here. I need help. I need help and admitting that and admitting that maybe not, you know, out loud even just admitting it to yourself and then going after those resources, super powerful.

Loren Greiff 25:22

You want to respect gays, you know, build in some vulnerability because that's what people really respond to not because it's a, it's, it's clickbait. Because you have respect for somebody who isn't necessarily showing up as the model of perfection, or somebody else who's just copying to some some level of humanity. And we all we all cheerlead for those people until it's until it's us, and you have to try it yourself. Yeah, exactly. Amazing. Good for you. I love your vulnerability. It looks good on you. But I don't know if I want to wear it.

Claire Davis 26:02

It's not for me, it's not my color. No, that's okay. You, you get all you get all vulnerable with your brand. So you know, something you said earlier, struck me today, Lauren, and you said we over index on the things that we know. And we under index on the things that work? Can you break that apart for us? And sort of tell us a little bit more about that idea?

Loren Greiff 26:25

Sure. So in the job search, we over index on undoing a lot of the things that we know, we know that they should not? Not always, but we just go back to those job boards, because it gets very tempting, you know, it's like, well, it's in there, it's looking at me, and why not? You know, why not? It's kind of like, you know, pulling down the the, the, what is that thing called? Slot Machine thing? Like I you know, like maybe I'm that lucky winner, maybe I'll I was smart, that electronic algorithm, maybe somehow some weight is going to be different for me. And so we lean into that, because it can feel very soothing. It could feel like you know what, at least I'm doing something. And we start feeling like, wow, I could be the lucky winner and make some progress. And so we index over index our time on a lot of the job boards. We don't know another way, we over index on how much time people are spending, reading our resumes. We all know it's roughly six seconds. And I mean, I'm sure you have many people that come to you and say, you know, I spent seven hours on my resume, and it still sucks, right? Fix it. And so, we spend all that time. And we think that that's the Holy Grail. Yeah, no need those job descriptions. And we take that as the gospel. You know, we were like, well, you know, I can check all these boxes. And you know, that's gonna, I'm, I'm qualified for that role. I have so many people that say, I fit everything on this job description. And I'm like, so does everyone else who's applying? Yeah, right. Did you ever dawned on you that most people who are applying think that they are also have the winning ticket? I want to know what's not on the job description that you're going to bring to that party?

Claire Davis 28:31

Ah, nice. Okay, so let's talk about that. What are some of those things? What do you see Warren that isn't said in that job description that people need to be thinking about? When it comes to applying for an executive role, especially for your for your clients?

Loren Greiff 28:47

I'm actually I'm going to cheat. I'm going to I'm going to quote our bestie here. Awesome. And this is one of my favorite quotes. And I do I use it all the time, because I think it's brilliant. Yeah, as you become more senior, you have less words to influence more people in less time. Oh, okay.

Claire Davis 29:10

All right, mic drop, hold on. As you become more as you become more senior, you have less words to influence more people in less time.

Loren Greiff 29:14

Wow. Powerful. So what that means is, get rid of your filler words. Make sure that whatever you are sharing, whether it be in a networking conversation, or an interview it's moving. It's it's causing some kind of response reaction, emotion, something, you're leading that entire entire conversation in what you're sharing or not. And they're thinking thing, which is not on the job description, what they're thinking is, can this person be on my board and influence all these other people? Should I put them in front of the private equity group? And have them really tell our story? That's the job description? Are they is it saying, Hmm, you know, we're gonna have to lay off and other 30% of our team? Is this person going to be able to deliver that in a way that demonstrates a dose of empathy and compassion without having our social media blow up? And people descend on us? That's what they're thinking. So you got to look way beyond what what's obvious, and really invest in some of the things that are that they're thinking about? What is what, what is their criteria? How are you going to make them really look good, but also, how can you authentically, authentically I'm really saying this, walk the talk so that you are delivering for, for that organization separate and different from anybody else? Who's in that candidate pool?

Claire Davis 31:14

Mm hmm. I think Do you think the fastest way to that is stories?

Loren Greiff 31:23

Definitely. Yeah. But good stories, right? Yeah, we can. I had somebody who is an over talker, and she's like, Well, I'm just a storyteller. I'm like, No, you're blabbing.

Claire Davis 31:36

Jake, to get to the point.

Loren Greiff 31:39

I didn't check your storytelling is is not just for the sake of hearing your own voice. Storytelling. has to drive some kind of aha moment for the other person. Yeah.

Claire Davis 31:55

Yeah. Well, speaking of aha moments, I know you and I could go on for hours on this stuff. I say round to we talk through some, some specific things that you have done in your career to do this and how your clients have seen results too. So until round two, until round two, where can people find you or if they want to connect?

Loren Greiff 32:18

On LinkedIn, it's my home away from home. I'm there all the time, or you can find me on that

Lauren@Portfolio rocket.com.

Claire Davis 32:31

Awesome. Thank you so much, friend. Until then, have a wonderful day and thanks, everybody for coming. Back.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

The Importance of Telling your Own Story in your Resume

AI-Generated Transcript below. There may be errors.

Claire Davis 0:20

Welcome back to another episode of today's medical sales leader today I have one of my favorite people on the planet with me. It's none other than the wonderful Virginia Franco. So Virginia, thank you so much for joining us. I'm thrilled to have you here today.

Virginia Franco 0:34

I'm excited to be here, you are one of my favorite people to go to.

Claire Davis 0:39

All right. Okay, so I'll give you that 15 bucks, I owe you after the show. Great to go. So Virginia, let me tell you a little bit about her today. She founded Virginia Franco Resumes years ago when she recognized that her years of corporate communications journalism in Social Work offered her a unique understanding of how people read and communicate and share information. She helps clients all over the world, especially if you're trying to test the job search waters or get your resume in order because she's a professional storyteller. And she shared her insights as the host of her own podcast, resume storyteller podcast. And she's a proud supporter, board member and former president of the amazing national resume writer association. So you're kind of a big deal friend. And personally, having grown up with a family business of our own, and then creating traction resume myself, you know, I always joke with you like business was mean back in the early 2000s. It was it was not the place I expected when I opened my own business because I found this incredible community, and you especially who really helped me get on my feet. So for so many reasons. I'm thrilled we're talking today.

Virginia Franco 1:52

My pleasure.

Claire Davis 1:55

Awesome. So So let's talk a little bit about what everyone is thinking about today. And in this day and age, which is layoffs, because there have been massive waves of layoffs, especially in the tech sector. And for many of you listening here today, if you're in medical sales, or in healthcare of some kind, you're seeing that while healthcare is traditionally somewhat insulated to layoffs, they are really cracking down in January. And as of this recording, you know, many of the major med tech companies have experienced layoffs, as well as other companies too. So first, Virginia, can you tell us a little bit about how you got into starting your own business after a significant layoff in your life in your family.

Virginia Franco 2:41

Now, the these headlines that we're seeing around all the technology and technology, adjacent companies are sort of, you know, triggering them because it brings me back to what prompted me to start my business, which was the recession back in 2008, which hit financial services brutally. And I lived in Charlotte, North Carolina at the time, which is home to not one but two bank. And so it was like it people were death walking, it was awful. My husband was in banking. And so when in finance, he was he was a he's in financial services, technology. And so it was a rough rough place it It reminds me a lot of what people are going through now. Lots of headlines, I didn't know about LinkedIn back then. Just a lot of the what I take comfort in is knowing that a lot of the tools that are available now, if they were available back then I didn't know about them. And I feel like they there's a lot of support there for job seekers. But that crossroad prompted me to start my own business I was had lots of little kids at the time, and the idea of childcare would have made me broke. And so I need to figure out what the heck I could do to bring in additional income and I'd always written resumes for free and so I started I started my own business unlike you I did not have you know business entrepreneurship in my blood I was completely accidental entrepreneur and you know, crossroad, whatever Crossroads is the parent of invention or whatever that phrase is, but that was me.

Claire Davis 4:13

Yeah. And do you feel like when the well first so with your husband's layoff? Did he know it was coming? Or was it a surprise?

Virginia Franco 4:21

complete surprise, okay, and we weren't educated in the signs like if we look back now. Now I could recognize them but back then no idea. He'd been with the same company for over 10 years. And so it was not a company that had done a lot of layoffs. And so we were really we didn't see it coming. Right. They were generous in their in their package which was nice. Like some of the companies are now not you know, it's been hit or miss in terms of what just seen but they were they treated us well with them forever grateful for.

Claire Davis 4:53

That's great. Yeah, you know, that's not always the case. I'm really glad to hear it. So if you were to look back back. What would you say that, you know, the signs were that you'd recognize now that were happening then

Virginia Franco 5:07

we weren't paying attention to the, like the quarterly revenue earnings and things like that we weren't aware of. Like you could tell when it comes to start to invest in one area versus another. Where your role fits into that, how close you are to the money that impacts your role. And, you know, we didn't know that when, when a call shows up on your calendar unexpectedly, that is very likely and chances are getting the getting the act. So. Yeah, so it was it was a blindside, we did not know right away. There was a, as I recall, there was a lag time between when he got the news and what we find when we found out what the severance package was going to be. So there were several weeks where we were in utter panic. And I did a lot of things right. And a handful of things wrong.

Claire Davis 6:00

So sure. So you, I love that you just did a post on that. Because yeah, I think that, you know, when we're on LinkedIn, and we're surrounded by these career coaches, myself included in YouTube, where, you know, we talk a lot about the things that you can do like you can, you could post that you're looking for work, you can network, your heart out, like you can get your resume together. But there's so much more that goes into that moment. And it's almost hard to take action because you're in that place of distress. So can you talk a little talk about the couple things that you feel like you did, right, and then a couple things that you feel like maybe looking back, I would have done it differently.

Virginia Franco 6:38

So in terms of the doing right category, what we did was identify what, what a couple of the deal breakers were. And some of those had to do with salary some of those had to do with you know, traveling, not traveling, there was no remote work back then. Or if there was, we didn't know about it. So there were a couple of those deal breakers. And then we recognized that probably the shortest path to landing was the quickest path to landing was going to be insane. And something that was very similar versus doing a really big career change. And I think that holds true today. And then we literally sat down with old fashioned pen and paper and made a list of everyone we could think of that we knew. Analysts list of companies that we thought would make sense to target and we work that list like crazy. Really, he does. He did most of it. I did my part of calling people see but you know, it's his job search. Which leads me to the part that I did wrong, which was I micromanage. I'm a type A control person. And I drove him crazy. Yeah, no. Yeah. So you know, second guessing, offering suggestions when maybe they weren't needed. And if I were to do it all over again, I think I would have said, let's, let's, once or twice a week, regroup and see where we are with this. Versus every single day. Um, because that wasn't supportive. That was, it was counterproductive.

Claire Davis 8:11

It's so hard to know how to deal and how to support someone best because especially when you're, you know, used to telling stories and crafting these documents for people like you're in the career space. I'm sure you want to give as much as you can to your husband in that moment of, you know, support, I probably would have done that too. And been more, I would have been more smothering for sure.

Virginia Franco 8:35

Well, I wasn't I wasn't in the resume in the job search business then. But I was a writer. And so I knew how to I knew about communication. So I was like, hey, this player base, you know, yeah.

Claire Davis 8:48

There's no perfect way. But I like how you assess the situation, and that you put pencil to paper one, I think it's easier to remember things when we actually physically write them down. I think that becomes a lot that's become a lost art. And too, I was talking to a client yesterday, and she is working here in Spokane, and she I'm not going to knock it out your girl. Don't worry. I'm not saying who you are. But she called me to see hey, you know, is there a best way to go about finding a new role? And I gave her the advice that you just shared right now, which is grab your pen and paper and jot down companies that interests you, and write down everyone you know, and she kind of laughed. You know, she's like, everyone I know. And they said, Yeah, I dare you to reach over 150 people. She was really, I said, Well, yeah, there's there's like a psychology behind this. It's called Dunbar's principle. And we can really as people only manage about 150 to 200 relationships in our brain. Like it's just like, it's science, which I love all like behavioral engineering factors and stuff. So it's amazing because I feel like then you You probably have your next position within one to two degrees of your career back.

Virginia Franco 10:05

And it was a friend of a friend of a friend. And that is, and not in layoff situations. But in proactive jobs versus that's the approach that he has been taken. And a lot of times it. It's amazing when you really work that network, how well how well it has benefited him.

Claire Davis 10:26

You know, this is one of my favorite things that you coach on, which is it. And for those of you who don't know, Virginia, and I also we'd run a room about every month with Kenneth Lang. So if you don't know him yet to please do. Yeah. Hey, can it and we do lions, tigers and resumes Omi where if you join us, we will literally answer any question you'd like to toss our way. And then Kenneth is our is our LinkedIn expert. And so he really has tons of information for job seekers. But anybody who wants to up their game on LinkedIn, so join us. But one of the things you talk about a lot is your networking in threes. So can you talk us through that?

Virginia Franco 11:05

Yep. So every time you are wrapping up speaking with someone, you just close it out by saying, Can you think of three other people that I've been speaking with. And what that does is number one, it expands your network. But then number two, it allows you to loop back with that original person and say, Thank you so much. I spoke with them. And this is what came up into it allows you to keep fostering that, that relationship. And we have found out about roles before they were posted immediately as they were posted. It's really been it's quite remarkable.

Claire Davis 11:37

That's incredible. And you know what to is. There's something really powerful about working with a mentor. And then actually circling back like you mentioned with that person who offered you help to say, I took your advice, and I put it into action. And here's how it went. That's a huge, huge accolade. credibility and relationship builder.

Virginia Franco 12:03

Yeah, and I feel like in sales, you have that natural skill. You're used to having to get past the gatekeepers and get key opinion leaders to come to you. And you do it by slowly circling in on those people through your second and third degree connected.

Claire Davis 12:17

Yeah. Yeah. Like sharks, like sharks. Just kidding. Just kidding. No, like sharks. Um, okay. So can you talk a little bit through couple of a couple of ways that you might recommend someone to go about finding right fit companies, because in this, like, let's take tech, for example. You know, if someone says, Oh, I'm interested in working in tech, it sounds really exciting and innovative immediately, we think Google Amazon, you know, all the all these huge names, but but really, I think there are smarter ways to target than the biggest branded company. So yeah, what are some ways that you recommend people go about making the company list?

Virginia Franco 12:59

So first way is to work that list of people and ask them about companies, and they've heard and it starts, when several people start naming the same companies that are good or bad, you've got some things that are worth addressing. The LinkedIn has, is really powerful in terms of filters, where you can search by ethnic ethnic search by size of company, things like the local Better Business, Bureau journals are great. Even things like Best Places to Work lists, I mean, some of those are HR applying. But you start when you start to see companies appearing over and over in a couple of different searches, then it is worth taking a second look. But you have to be clear on what your deal breakers are. So you know, it is what you know, don't have 10 deal breakers. So maybe have two or three. And you can whittle things away by by having conversations with people watching YouTube videos, repeat words, where the C suites are talking about things and presentations. You know, looking at reviews online, looking at talking to people that have left there, I think is a really great thing to listen to, to again, probably a lot of people that leave leave under not the greatest term. So you're you have to keep that in mind. But if you hear the same thing over and over again, then it's probably something that's worth considering. Hmm.

Claire Davis 14:31

Oh, yeah. And, you know, it's, it's interesting when I find people are for in this case, if we're talking about medical sales, like say they want to go work for Medtronic, well, they set those filters to Medtronic in their area. But really, if we look at people who used to work at Medtronic, you know, and have a conversation with them, or maybe two jobs ago. It's powerful Intel you can get because people are willing to give a little more information when they're not behind. Old into the company at that moment, and sometimes a little bit of time away. So if it's two jobs away, sometimes a little extra time away with those people we connect with can even soften some of that anxiety if they left under difficult circumstances.

Virginia Franco 15:16

That's when a lot of people like from strikers, and Medtronic, then go to smaller companies, some more, you know, some sort of issue ones. And if that might be something that you'd want to target, you can do your search for Medtronic, see where they are now. And then you can have conversations with them about how they found out about those companies, how they made their move there, and maybe cut and find out about other companies that they were considering? Mm hmm.

Claire Davis 15:41

What's the difference you see, with folks who take this kind of approach versus the applying online, writing a chat GPT resume, and blasting it to every application on LinkedIn, what, what possibilities are really there for people who take this more targeted approach?

Virginia Franco 16:01

To me, it's the fast path to Disney World, it gets you to the interview much quicker and their first thought is your job first. That's not to say that you should not apply online as a strategy. In fact, you need to when you are networking, you need to make sure that your resume isn't there system. But it will allow you to speak with people that can then get comfort around who you are. And people will always hire will usually hire someone that they have a level of competence and trust about, then someone that's a complete stranger. So it's a way a way to make you less of a stranger. And it really just comes down to the front of the line.

Claire Davis 16:46

What are some ways? So I really liked what you bring up there. Because a lot of times we feel it seems like we feel when we have all the right things on our resume, someone will read them and say, aha, this person checks all my boxes, hire them today. But really, I would argue that there's still so much more that has to be done on a trust front, that can't be complete, can't completely rely on just the resume. So what are some other ways that people, you know, that if someone is looking for a role, what are some other ways they can start to build that trust in relationship in addition to the resume? Like what are the other puzzle pieces?

Virginia Franco 17:28

Yeah, so writing a LinkedIn profile that when someone reads it, they feel like they've heard your voice, I think is really helpful. You can use recommendations on LinkedIn that will share with others a lot. You know, a lot of times recommendations speak to someone's performance, but they also speak to someone's character. So I feel like that's an a way to give someone an insight into who you are. Your LinkedIn about Sexton is a place where again, you have the same themes as your resume, but you might be able to tell a little bit about yourself and what drives you. I wrote a resume the other day, he wasn't in medical sales, he was in corporate development, but we talked about how he grown up as a son of a grocery store owner and have that experience, you know, let's that's, again, insight into someone person that makes you feel like you've gotten to know them better.

Claire Davis 18:17

That's such a great example. I had a client recently. And I said, you know, one of the questions I like to ask is, what's something that nobody knows about you? Right? Or what's something interesting about you that, you know, that only your closest friends know, and you know, if you care to share it with me, you know, and he said, I grew up in a car. He said, I was so broke and and our family was really poor. And so for a long time, I grew up in a car, and I would do janitorial work at some of the stadiums around my town. And I said, that's incredible. Now this man now does. He's a CRO for a global company, talk about it ethic and hustle. Oh, 100% and salt of the earth person, as you can imagine. And the next thing that he said that shocked me was and I would never want anybody to know that about me. And I was shocked because to me, I thought, What an incredible story. Like what an incredible and not just because it's a Cinderella story in nature, but like, coming from such humble beginnings to now leading companies in the way that this man deals with people. I mean, the testimonials on this guy where they've made you cry, people were so drawn to him. And but you know, it really wasn't until he and I had talked for him to admit that. And I just thought, Man, that's foundational in your story. I wish more people use those kinds of things.

Virginia Franco 19:49

Yeah. And I get where people don't want to, you know, it's it brings it brings back pain. They don't want to bring it up, but maybe he could have he could have said he came from humbled Beginning? Yeah, before, you know. But anyway, those are ways that you can allow anyone to have an insight into your soul that and then again, conversations with people where you're having those one on one discussions. It gives someone insight into your character what you're about and that that reputation will be carried on as people speak about you to decision makers.

Claire Davis 20:24

I was looking at one of your posts recently up because I follow all of your stuff, of course. And you'd mentioned that 20 years ago, we read everything on paper. And 10 years ago, we read everything on a screen. And now we read everything. If I had it, I'd hold it up on our cell phone. So

Virginia Franco 20:43

So God help me if we start writing on Apple watches? But yeah, so far, we're not.

Claire Davis 20:50

I'm gonna have to get some like magnifying glasses at that point. Yeah. So can you can you talk a little bit about how the resume specifically has made the transition to serve the different kinds of different ways that we read and absorb information. Now.

Virginia Franco 21:07

The reason that I wrote that post is that it's important to understand that we read really differently online than we do in print. Online, our eyes do two things very differently. Number one, we have a hard time digesting dense text. And number two, we tend to jump all over the place, we're super add online, in a way we're not in print and print, we're taught, start at the top corner, go, you know, left to right, top to bottom. And we can read big fat, things like that pretty easily because we are doing this on screen. When we see dense text, our eyes glaze over, we fight the urge to print. And what happens if someone is in a rush, and something is hard to read, you run the risk of they're gonna skip it. What happens with mobile is that a five line paragraph turns into a nine line paragraph. And then it's so long, your eyes again, glaze over and you don't write it. So the good thing is, it is very easy to overcome those things. By keeping your lines, I think of an eight and a half by 11 page on your computer, or whatever the equivalent is, keep your lines, your paragraphs to two to three lines, add a little bit of whitespace in between each and every bullet and paragraph. And that I keep your margins to about no more than half an inch or all the way around. And that will facilitate a skim read on any device. And anything that is written for a screen reader can print out and be read fine. It's just that the reverse isn't true. And those are principles that should apply to emails, wide decks, anything, just don't tell your high school English teacher about them. Because it's very different from what we were taught to write in school. Think about that. It worked.

Claire Davis 22:56

It does. I remember in school. So I got my journalism degree degree from Ohio University. And I remember how we would study these classic writers who didn't follow traditional English grammar rules. And they were like the Cowboys.

Virginia Franco 23:12

Both the novel were Wow, yeah, yeah, we're like, wow, yeah.

Claire Davis 23:18

And, you know, anymore. If we want something to read somebody to read something online, you're right. If we don't use that kind of smart writing, then we'll lose people and that we don't want to do so I really liked how you bring that up. There's a method that I was recently taught from a group I'm in for copywriting. And it was the three, let's say 131 or 3131 method where essentially, it's what you say it's, you know, you've got your headline, and then your space before and after. And then a little bit of meat text, and then a space before and after. And then another headline, and just to keep people tracking, because otherwise, it mean, if you lose someone, you lose someone, that's your only chance. So what are some other ways people can use those kinds of visual cues or visual interest on the resumes that you write? Yeah, keep people interested in keep them reading.

Virginia Franco 24:15

Well, the other thing that I didn't say that but then another follow up is talking about how our eyes jump around a lot. You can use some design elements to draw the reader where you want them to go. And I'm not talking about crazy, crazy design, like logos are graphs and charts. I'll use those from time to time but what I'm talking about really is things like bolding and shading. So for instance, if I want to show that my client has worked with some of the bigger names in pharma or device, I'm going to bold the company name. And I might keep the job titles, not in bold. If I wanted to show that someone has progressed to a certain level, and maybe they've worked with lesser known companies, maybe I will vote or save the company, the job titles instead of the company names. And the other thing I do is recognizing that we will start sentences but not finished them. Because we're jumping online, I front loaded, which means that put the most powerful part of whatever I'm trying to say at the beginning, because I don't know if the reader will get to the end. And that's a really big departure from how we were taught in high school. So if you lead a strategy that resulted in 30%, territory growth, you need to start off by saying, grew territory 30% By doing XYZ versus throwing that number at the end.

Claire Davis 25:41

Yep, absolutely. It's like throwing your line in the water with the right bait, like go for the bait first, let the line be the rest of the work.

Virginia Franco 25:48

That's right. The other thing, when people are reading bullets, skim readers read the first bullet than the last one. And stuff in the middle often doesn't get looked at until a little later down the road. And so I really aim to be strategic and put something super powerful at the beginning. Secondarily impactful at the bottom. And then if I have more than five or six bullets, I will break them up into subcategories because too many bullets. Someone goes up too many too hard to read. I'm not reading that.

Claire Davis 26:17

Yes, yes. Or death by bullets, as I've heard you buy bullets. Yeah. Okay, so um, so we talked, you know, resume, we talked LinkedIn profile, what are some other things that people need to be equipped with to really stand out in today's job market.

Virginia Franco 26:36

Your resume, your LinkedIn profile, your LinkedIn profile needs to be complete, you can't not have a picture you have to have, you need to have the key sections completed to help you show up on search, headline, the about section counter job titles, experience, skills, education, if you have that. I would say, again, a list of company targets Alyssa people that you want to speak with, you need to know your story, you need to be able to in 30 to 60 seconds when someone says What are you looking for, you need to say this is this is what I'm known for. And this is the kind of role I'm targeting.

Claire Davis 27:23

Can we talk about that a little bit more, because you know, what I find is something that I hear a lot when I work with somebody, especially someone who's been in medical sales or health care for like 2025 years, maybe 1520 years. And they'll say, this is the first time now that we've written this resume. This is the first time I learned how to talk about myself. Because I think so often we think, okay, we're going after this job, I need to have this laundry list of all the things I've ever accomplished all my status and my content.

Virginia Franco 27:56

Yeah, exactly.

Claire Davis 27:59

But really, I mean, we know as people, we connect over story, so that's why you're an executive storyteller, right? So do you find that often just the process of writing someone's resume can help them to one understand their story and to learn how to tell it.

Virginia Franco 28:16

It helps them to identify themes that they maybe haven't considered before. I am amazed how many times I, when people have the luxury to tell their whole story, they realize that there are commonalities, often they are known for going in and fixing a territory that was hot, or launching a product or overcoming obstacles like you know, in from a blackbox way, there's, there's commonalities that they are, they tend to be brought into over and over again. And when we identify that that is, that's how they describe themselves. That's their brand or their reputation. And so that's when someone says, Tell me about yourself. That's the kind of stuff you talk about. But without having that conversation where they have reflected back on their career in its entirety, that doesn't become, you know, often apparent, because we're too close to our own blood, sweat and tears. It's a lot easier for a stranger to see it, which is why I didn't write my own resume.

Claire Davis 29:13

Same same. That's why I got branding help as well. I need to truly or too close to our own story to tell it well,

Virginia Franco 29:18

we bury the lead.

Claire Davis 29:20

Yeah. In in we probably know too much.

Virginia Franco 29:24

Yeah. Well, to pick out what's relevant and what's not.

Claire Davis 29:29

Right. Right. I think that's something that when we're in that, you know, if we're talking layoffs, when we're in that distressed place, it can be hard to go after something with strategy, because we get a little bit like knee jerk. We want to do knee jerk reactions because it's that place of desperation fit. I've been there plenty of times, so I know it well. And I think that reverse engineering is a is an undervalued way to go about writing a resume and it sounds like that some thing that you do with all of them?

Virginia Franco 30:02

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. What I like about the healthcare has sales space isn't there, a lot of times they have more staff than other people? Not always. But they can say here, here's my rank, here's my quota. Here's the contest that I want, whatever. And so you can have a little, like a call out that explains all that. But then the bullets are focused on the story. Yeah, this is how bad the territory was. And this is what it's like. Now, the before and after story is what you're sharing in those bullets.

Claire Davis 30:31

Oh, yeah. And you know what that's it for, for folks who are listening, like Virginia is absolutely dead on here. Because you do get your quarterly numbers, you do get your rankings, you do get your territory volumes. And if you're in pharma, they might come six months to a year late, but you're gonna get them. And but the thing is, if you have a bad quarter, you have a bad quarter, there are more things to measure. So I really like how you emphasize the story there and the overall impact. So we're not locked in to I was six this quarter instead of third. Well, there's a lot more you were doing just then just besides being in the context can matter.

Virginia Franco 31:10

I just didn't read a sales resume last week, and the person was thrown in the territory with dead in the water account, like people companies that were bankrupt. And he only made inroads and like, at like 1244 accounts. And so we said, made inroads in 1244 accounts that were dead in the water. And boom, you're a miracle worker.

Claire Davis 31:30

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I love it. I feel like you help people give themselves more credit. You know, truly, because at the end of the day, which we all love to say in sales, I can't believe I just said it on here. But you know, we were more than just that rank. And I think that being able to tell your story well is really powerful. So if if you guys are not yet following Virginia, do not wait make it the next thing you do. And Virginia if people want to connect with you follow you see what else you're doing online. Where can they find you?

Virginia Franco 32:03

My company name is Virginia Franco resumes.com You can follow me on all my socials are pretty much my name and with the word resumes at the end. And I'm on LinkedIn and Twitter, Instagram, all the usual stuff.

Claire Davis 32:18

Oh my gosh, you're on Instagram too. Okay, I gotta

Virginia Franco 32:22

barely but yeah, I'm on everything. Yeah.

Claire Davis 32:25

Don't look up on my Instagram. It's no good. Well, thank you so much for joining us today. I've learned so much from you in my own business and my own career. And and I know that you're a really powerful storyteller. And I love what you're doing in the space with helping these executives tell their stories better. So thanks for all of that. And thanks for joining us today. It's been wonderful having you.

Virginia Franco 32:45

Thank you. Great questions.

Claire Davis 32:47

All right till next time. We'll see you later.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

How to Improve Sterilization Within the Medical Field

AI-Generated Transcript below. There may be errors.

Claire Davis 0:20

Hey everybody and welcome back to today's medical sales leader. I am so thrilled to have this person with me today Hank Balch, here he is from the sterile processing world. And the reason why you want to get to know this man to my right left, I can never quite get which way around somewhere. Yeah, right you're you're here, you're here next to me is because he not only shows us how to do this really, really well, and helps people in the space, really master the art of making sure that things are instruments are cleaned and to the, to the level that helps other patients thrive, that helps people to have you know more success in their surgeries and whatever they're doing in the hospital. But he also does it with a true mission at heart, don't hide it, when there are mistakes they happen. Let's all work together to actually fix things and progress and move forward. So Hank, I love what you're doing out here on LinkedIn. And I'm so glad to have you today on the show. Thanks so much for coming.

Hank Balch 1:16

I really appreciate the invite Claire. And yeah, looking forward to digging into anything under the sun or touches LinkedIn branding, sterile processing, Michigan, etc.

Claire Davis 1:26

Awesome. I remember, you know, back in my medical sales days, I was a little bit removed from the sterile processing rooms, not for you know, a reason they weren't like clear stay out of there. But you know, when I was in the hospital, mostly it was in pathology, or in the O R. And I'll admit, while I knew Claire don't even come close to that drape, or that tray on the table in the O R, that's as deep as it got with my understanding as what went into sterile processing for surgery. So can you talk a little bit about what your what the arena looks like? What sterile processing really involved in why it's so very important that it's done? Well, in the OR?

Hank Balch 2:10

Yeah, so it's complex industry? I think that's probably one of the assumptions out there is it's, you know, kind of simple, how hard can it be to clean something or to throw something in an autoclave to get it sterile? Well, in all actuality, it can be pretty complex. It's highly regulatory space, or highly regulated space, through the CDC, through FDA through the medical devices that are coming in, of course, through CMS that does the accreditation side of everything. Our goal in sterile processing is for anything that's reused in the surgical setting. And that's kind of a shock to the public. When you're like, Hey, did you know that in your surgery, I caught a lot of the things have been used before, sometimes hundreds of times in the imagine like this, not the scalpel blade with a scalpel handle, the scissors, the clams, all those things are used again and again. So it's our team and sterile processing that is charged with not only cleaning and sterilizing. And reprocessing is kind of the term they use, but also ensuring that it's still functional after use and use and use. So the scissors are still cutting, they're still sharp, the clamps was gentle clamping other attractors are still retracting in a way that they did the first day that we bought them, but also that they're ready on time. So what good is a sponsor that cuts that's in the process of becoming sterile, but you're on the table, and you need it, and it's not ready. So there's a lot of moving parts, a lot of regulatory oversight, as I said. And you know, as you mentioned before, the transparency piece, there's a lot of gaps today, that in all actuality, we've gotten a lot of work to do to get up to the standard that I think patients assume that we're at, but it's, it's a scary place out there.

Claire Davis 4:08

Yeah, no kidding. Well, and I think that's probably goes for 99% of people out there is you know, we have the luxury of not having to worry whether our whether the instruments and all the things being used within a surgery are clean or not, you know, are functioning properly, like you said, so, when you are when you're first introducing this kind of thing to people, when you're talking about this on LinkedIn, what are the assumptions of you know, what are the assumptions that people make? And what are some things they might be surprised by when it comes to the actual you know, functionality and cleanliness of these kinds of tools? Like if you if you were to say most people can expect that everything is 100% clean, or would you say that you You know, maybe it's been trending and getting better over the years. What's it what's it looked like?

Hank Balch 5:05

So I'm horrible with stats, just do not have a brain for numbers. But the stats, if you will look at the numbers, the number of surgical site infections, or the number of healthcare acquired infections, really startling, I mean, anybody who's was looking at the data, I think, should come away saying I don't want to have surgery unless I absolutely need it, I don't want to be in a hospital, because it's a dangerous place to be. And that's kind of a weird thing to say from the inside. But it's true. And that just goes back again, like I'm all about truth telling. Because if we're not honest with the problems, we're not even, we're not going to work as hard as we should be working to solve them. So that's the first piece, there's an assumption of safety. Now, granted, we have some of the best health care in the world. But there's still there's a lot of errors happening every single day in operating rooms across the country, and errors all the way from patients dropping off of beds, to incorrect surgery on the wrong side of your body, like they needed to replace your right knee and they replaced your left knee. Now, that kind of information is like shocking. In the public conversation, there's a book out there by Atul Gawande called complications. And he goes through this idea that we call it practicing medicine for a reason. Because there's humans involved, and you need to practice this art. And along the way, errors are made. It just is what it is. And so the same is true in sterile processing. Even the highest rated department out there with the best people the best processes, will make mistakes. And so the challenge for us is to reduce those mistakes as much as we possibly can, and correctly and clearly communicate to the public what the real challenge and risks are. The last thing I'll say about that pieces on our side of the equation in sterile processing, and we'd like to challenge folks going into surgery, talking to their surgeons, everybody wants a good surgeon. Everybody wants a highly rated hospital, they're looking at the quality ratings, hey, I want to five star I want to I want to go to like the LeapFrog, you know, whatever, A plus rating. But nobody's asking, Okay, I want a high performing sterile processing team at my hospital. Because I'll tell you, some of the biggest named hospitals out there, who you think oh, man, that brand is like beyond compare. This is the best hospital best research, you go into sterile processing. And oftentimes it is a disaster, for lack of a better phrase. And it's not always their fault. It's not like we have people down there that do not want to do the right thing. Many times there's lack of training, investment, etc. But that's, that's where I ultimately talk about mission, I want to get the public tuned into these conversations and asking questions as they're going in saying, hey, how good is your sterile processing team here? Because that's the kind of questions it's gonna drive investment.

Claire Davis 8:26

And what kind of things do you see like when it comes to a hospital that maybe doesn't have the, you know, the, maybe they have a robust brand, but when you're looking under the numbers, and you're seeing Okay, wait, something's going on, things aren't being cleaned or fixed or restored to the way that they should be? What does that look like? Like for, you know, for layman's terms, what, what are the markers that show that, hey, there needs to be some changes made?

Hank Balch 8:53

I think everybody who has been in medical device sales, or medical sales in general knows the answer to that question, right? Because you get in, in the doors, you're having conversations behind scenes you see in the back hallways, you know, what's going on, and there's a host of examples of that, right, you know, but for the sterile processing side, I'll just throw out like one common example that's been happening over the last, you know, five to 10 years and this is the whole robotic push, all this money and all the branding, all the marketing has been thrown into robotics. And so we got the big billboards out there, you know, and so patients are like, Yeah, I want to go in because you know, smaller holes, everything else. Well, I'm gonna recover faster and the nerves Yeah, yeah. If if sterile processing is able to do their job because those devices are more complex. And the cleaning instructions in the sterilization process is more complex, which means more opportunity for air. And in very, very simple things like will spend a couple of million dollars on a new robot. And then we'll forget Oh, yes, there'll process Scene also needs a washer that can fit those robotic arms. Because when these washers were made, there were no robotic arms. They didn't have anything now on. And we see this like, all across the country skilled out again and again and again, we got new devices coming in. And he technology down sterile processing to keep up with that complexities is just not keeping up.

Claire Davis 10:23

Yeah. And who, you know how how can that start to keep up? Is it is it teams who are in hospitals saying, Hey, we've got these things here that we really can't clean? We can't restore properly? You know, we need help, or are there committees? How does that? How does it happen to? How do you get the right cleaning instruments in there?

Hank Balch 10:41

I mean, you're asking the question, and I know our team at beyond clean. Our model is it, your conversation has to come out of the basement, which is where a lot of these sterile processing departments are, in into the public arena, into social media, into print media in a video in a way that's gonna capture not only the attention of the hospital administrators, because that's usually where we start, but you need pressure on on them to say, oh, yeah, like, now there's like an NBC Nightly News story about this, you know, okay, now we're gonna get some things fixed, right? Or even like a local newspaper, right? Like, when the stuff hits the fan, you get a lot of investment, a lot of attention, but we don't want it to get to that spot. And that's why we really need to be creative about how we communicate and put that pressure on proactively.

Claire Davis 11:39

Yeah, I mean, I can imagine that, you know, hospital systems are like shaking in their shoes right now hearing this kind of thing. Because really, I mean, hospitals are huge organizations, there are a lot of skeletons in the closet and things that they're either fixing, trying to fix or don't know, they need to fix it. So, you know, say if somebody, say if a hospital administrator were to, to see, hey, we're seeing a trend here with surgeries, and we think maybe sterile processing is where we need to, you know, put some more support, you know, how do they how do they go about that? Do they call beyond clean? Is there a what, what's the best way for them to like take steps toward remedying that.

Hank Balch 12:22

I mean, they can call us if they want to, but we're not gonna be able to help them too much. On the practical side of things now, I will tell you like a couple things that we talked to hospital administrators on a regular basis when it comes to education, because a lot of what we do through being unclean, is that clinical education conversation, equipping all of these frontline technicians with the information that they need to ask questions, because again, a lot of these gaps is just because there's, there has not been that upfront investment in training, and ongoing education and support to know Oh, yeah, this is against standards, or what are the standards? And then how do we, how do we navigate the justification process, you know, to get a new washer to get new equipment, etc. But the first steps, you know, from that administrative kind of perspective is to engage the clinicians, especially these department leaders in in those ongoing questions around quality, infection prevention, because many, many times you've got these like, quality committees, you've got the Chief of Surgery, you've got the law director, you've got quality and risk. And one person who's not in the room is the sterile processing manager and director. And that's, it's really a shame because our voice is not even present in these conversations, to be able to give feedback to ask questions to raise your hand and say, Hey, if you buy this robot, I'm going to need this washer downstairs, that we don't even get that opportunity, because we're not at the table. So I, a lot of what we do, again, on our team is we encourage these departmental leaders to do what we call build your own chair, and invite yourself to the meetings, you know, find out where they are, and just say, hey, come and I'm not on the invite list. But I'm coming because I need to be there. And the more you do that, you know, the more welcome and the more value that everyone else is going to see that you bring to those things because it is it's critical part to safe patient care.

Claire Davis 14:34

Why do you think that's so interesting, and I'm so glad you're empowering people in that way. Why do you think that of all those departments sterile processing is getting the, you know, the the treatment that that it does that it sounds like it does?

Hank Balch 14:49

Yeah, it's not a sexy department. It's not a revenue generating department. You know, number one, that's probably the first place that people go is a Uh, it's a call center. Going back to, to where we started, there's a something, there's an assumption that it's kind of a simple job, you just put dirty instruments out or in and then clean instruments come out, how hard can it be? And then to, to add complexity to it. And this was actually an interview that we did on one of our podcasts with a doctor named Larry Musker Rayleigh talking about antibiotics. So this is a real kicker, and this is kind of scary pieces. Many times folks don't realize how bad or broken the process is, because we're using all of these drugs prophylactically prior to surgery, and so even if we are introducing organisms, the patient's still not getting an infection, because we got these drugs, you know, which is good. That's the success the patient didn't, did not get surgical site infection, but the process is broken. And, and as everybody knows, now, now we're talking about these multi drug resistant organisms, the superbugs as they're called. And so that plan of action is not a long term solution anymore. So now it's becoming even more important to get sterile processing fixed today, before we run out of the drugs tomorrow, no kidding

Claire Davis 16:29

Oh, it's terrifying. My husband's a provider. And I remember early when we were dating, he and I had a long talk about, you know, resistant. You know, what's the what's the supervisor, you know, but, but things that are resistant to the traditional antibiotics, we've been taking for decades, the Z pack, right, who hasn't taken a Z pack in their life or the or, or heard of that. And, and now, unfortunately, we're seeing the ramification of you know, people aren't being, you know, they're not able to get the solution that they once were by taking things like that. So do you think that when it comes to empowering the people of that department, because I think in some sense, you know, wherever we are in the hospital, whether your reps, if you're here listening in your medical sales rep, or manager, or maybe you're, you know, you're in sterile processing yourself? Is there a way that you are empowering the people in that unit? To take this upon themselves to say, Okay, I know that my hospital may be D prioritizing the, my, my work here, right? So it's not maybe as front and center as it needs to be? How do you empower people in that department to really take the reins here and jump on with the mission of getting things more clean, but like the overall mission?

Hank Balch 17:55

Yeah, so this is kind of where I part ways with the industry, status quo response to that question. And it really, you know, I guess, maybe six or seven years ago, I started talking about this and blogged about it. Because I was in that apartment, I had been a technician, I was in managing and directing departments in Kentucky in Texas. And the stock answer to that question is, we need more education we need to become certified is kind of the answer. And that's the answer that we've been given for decades. By the way, it's not a new answer. We've been trying this certification game for years and years and years, and yet, no change, no change in the respect, no change in the, in the quality of the data, all those things, no change. So I'm sitting there thinking like, Well, guys, you know, the definition of insanity. Insanity is doing the same thing. Back to different results, right. So what are they doing? So I tend to say, Okay, we love education, right? My whole company is built around education. So we value education, but not as the only solution or the best solution for bringing us out of the shadows and out of the basement. Instead, I would, I would proffer two things, get creative about how we communicate, stop talking to ourselves, because that was happening in the industry. We go to our conferences, we talk to ourselves, you do this magazine that only our initial reads, right? Like nothing is ever leaving this echo chamber. And we're surprised why no one else knows about us. So get that message out. Number two, and it kind of goes to the comment that I mentioned that I'm not good at stats, but data is our friend. So all the data that we can bring out in front and keep pushing it out until other people who can do things with that data or that data makes sense to like data scientists or other physicians or Other epidemiologists like all of those people, if we keep pushing data out of our departments out in front, there will be people who it lands on their radar. And then they've got the power, they got the insight to do something with it.

Claire Davis 20:15

That's great. And you know what, too, I think that, although it's great not to just talk with the people that, like you said, are in the industry and keep that to be a closed conversation. One thing I know about you, other than how you're very mission driven with this cause, which is amazing. I think that I think that the way that you talk about this issue, the way that you talk about what the future could look like, for healthcare in this way, is really inspiring. But another thing I think, is, you're really leading the way in connecting with others in the industry digitally, to make the conversation bigger. And I think that, you know, data is great. And then when we know what to do with it, or when we share it, that's when it really has power. So do you have any examples of how you know your your networking, your your being on LinkedIn, and sharing your mission of, you know, getting clean, right? How that's really spurred change in an organization or with teams like, can you tell me a little bit about what the effect has been that you've seen?

Hank Balch 21:21

It's really shocking to me, the impact that small little podcast, right, so like, let's just think about this for a second 2017 podcasting is not new, but it's it's still in its kind of toddler stage. And this random guy on LinkedIn reaches out to me randomly through LinkedIn and says, Hey, Hank, I've been seen you kind of blogging on LinkedIn writing on LinkedIn and about sterile processing topics. Have you ever thought about creating a podcast about sterile processing? And and I was like, oh, yeah, you know, I thought about it, but it seems like a lot of work. And I don't want to do by myself. In out of that conversation, I only would we launched a podcast about sterile processing the most random podcast in the world. Like there's probably a couple more random than that, but you know, pretty freakin random. then grow into out only a very successful podcast has been downloaded out 160 countries, I keep waiting for North Korea to start listening to him and started listening yet, but you're my math North Korea. Then we also we also got this, this past month, we crossed over the 1 million download mark. You know, for sterile processing podcast? Who who does that? who listened to that? Well, I'll tell you, and this is getting your question. We tapped into a very, very hungry audience, that for years and years and years had been neglected and all the ways that we're talking about and they wanted not only technical information, because that was the one thing that we were pretty good at, you know, we're pretty good at talking about what are the standards? What are the regulatory like, what is required of you, when we weren't good at is okay. Yeah, but how do you do those things? Like, are we sharing best practices? And are we bringing synergies, like what you mentioned, outside of our four walls into like, can we talk to surgeons? Can we talk to infection prevention? Can we talk to entrepreneurs and innovators that are doing fun, creative things, and we talked to other people outside of our country, we started doing all that through his platform and podcasts that we launched in Yeah, the list is like, so long, I can't even I can't begin with the businesses that will be launched, because they heard an episode on the podcast, and like, Hey, that's a good idea. I'm gonna go do that thing. And we're like, wow, so like, I flew out to the middle of Wyoming a couple of years ago. And it was this guy who liked to listen to podcasts couple years before, and started a company to solve a solution in sterile processing. The same story is true, like we have folks that listen to the show, in their staff meetings in sterile processing, as a way to spark conversation in their departments about their processes to change the way that they do things to care for patients. So that kind of data like I don't have that in a spreadsheet anywhere, but it's been kind of thrust out into the emails and into the direct messages, you know, so much that I know that it's having an impact you and outside of the download numbers and that kind of stuff.

Claire Davis 24:35

Oh, that's amazing. And I think that you know, not that everybody maybe knows this yet, but you know, you having this outreach on social media to get this message out. I don't think it was just an industry when I think it's certainly an industry when because finally these people have you know, these people but the you know, these folks in these departments have some really specific content that relates to them. Um, can spark these conversations. But personally, I know that for you, this is a big win as well. Because when it comes to your growth as like a speaker and a businessman, you know, what was it like starting a podcast can you know in the first place because knowing this, this is my second go around. The first time we had a podcast, it was called Power Hour. And like you, I started out with a couple buddies, and it was great. But you know, it's not for the faint of heart, either. You got to keep showing up every day and make making sure you're bringing value to the generous people who are here to listen. So can you talk a little bit about what the beginning stages were like for you personally? For this podcast?

Hank Balch 25:43

Yeah. So if if there's one person in the industry that you would think would not be the one to start a podcast, I would be that person. Right. So yeah, surprise, surprise. And the reason what's kind of curious, the reason that me and our co founder found each other is because I was writing. And that's really what I was passionate about. I loved writing. That's where that was kind of my skill set, even like through college, but it was because in, in grade school all the way up until basically junior senior in high school, I had a severe speech impediment, and stutter and stammer. And so any, any kind of public speaking, like I'm, I understand that all kinds of people don't like public speaking. But I wasn't only in there, because I didn't like public speaking, I was scared. It's like, No, literally, I could not get my words out of my mouth, to communicate. And then all of the embarrassment, all the anxiety, and everything else that came with that. And so even though now today, through a lot of speech therapy, and everything else, I am now managing my speech that is still inside my head, and inside me somewhere. And so when we started talking about this podcast, one of the things that sold me is, hey, we can edit. I gotta give a shout out to all my producers, you know, through the years that have suffered through the early edits, especially of this guy who likes speaking was not my gift at all. Through that, though, and this is the other kind of second thing that we learned along the way, as we were probably, you know, four or five episodes, and we did a weekly, I was still doing a weekly show, you know, but we launched the weekly episodes. We did 52 weeks in a row in our first year. Wow. And early on. Like I said, like four or five episodes in, I realized, hey, people are tuning in not to listen to me. They're tuning into listen to the guest. And I just took a lot of pressure off of the host, because you're just there, like your ear candy, right? You're not, you're not there to carry it along or nothing. It is rare to find great guest to platform, great ideas and great insights and get out of the way. And I've been doing it successfully ever since I've been getting out of the way for five years now.

Claire Davis 28:14

Thanks, man getting out of the way, You're too modest. So so first of all, I mean, I just commend you, because I know I know what a grind it can be to stick with something that long and and so every time I listen to something that you produce, I hear incredible value from it from the what we were talking about right before we started recording, which was the videos that you're doing on each individual instrument to orient people to the audio rooms you're doing on LinkedIn, like the one I saw you in with Jonica Farah recently, like, you were definitely meant to do what you're doing. And I think that the the way that you overcame an incredible challenge to truly help people in this arena is really something. So I'm excited that you're here. And also, the editing tool is my friend is very much.

Hank Balch 29:07

Hey, man. Yeah.

Claire Davis 29:08

So let me ask you this. I know, our time is coming to a close here. But if someone wants to get in touch with you learn from you learn where in this case, medical sales professionals, management, anybody listening today can make it even more clear that sterile processing is a key element to the health care process, and maybe how they can help. Where can they get in touch with you and find out more about what you're doing at beyond clean?

Hank Balch 29:38

Yeah, so I would I would tell you before you get in touch with me if you're in, in medical device sales, go down and find your sterile processing department in the hospitals that you're going in today. knock on their door and say, Hey, you don't know me. I don't know you. I don't know anything about sterile processing. But I would like to know Can I schedule time to come check things out and just talk to your team? If you do that, for me, that's mission accomplished. To track me down on LinkedIn, that's my baby. I've been here for nine years or so. And you can look me up at linkedin.com/insterileprocessing. How about that for a vanity URL? Okay. And then you can track down everything that we're doing at beyond clean at beyond clean.net 300. Plus continuing education opportunities there, ton of podcasts, ton of videos, a lot of articles. And just a lot of good conversation, like you said, Claire, about challenging the status quo, trying to build up in outward together as an industry, not just in sterile processing, but all of healthcare.

Claire Davis 30:48

I love it. Yeah. I mean, it's a team approach, right. And when I think when we approach it that way, when we really get known in departments where we may, we may have nothing to do with, but we know that as a team, we can make things more efficient and better for patients. And it makes all the difference. So if you're listening today, thank you so much for joining me and Hank, and I'm going to put all those links that he mentioned, so that you can connect with him. You can learn more about what he's doing with the unclean and find him over on LinkedIn, his baby of nine years. Today in the show notes, so thank you so much for joining me today. Hank, I really appreciate it. And here's to the next one. Okay.

Hank Balch 31:23

All right. Sounds great. Thanks.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

The Power of Being Patient

AI-Generated Transcript below. There may be errors.

Claire Davis 0:02

Hello, and welcome back. I'm Claire Davis. And this is Alicia Ramsdale. And if you remember, we had her with us a few short months ago on today's medical sales leader. But when you've got Alicia with you, and she's willing to come back and talk even more about her expertise, you definitely take that opportunity. So welcome back to another episode of today's medical sales leader. I am so excited to have you with us again. Thank you so much, Alicia.

Alicia Ramsdell 0:29

Absolutely. I'm happy to be back. And I'm glad to double down.

Claire Davis 0:33

Awesome. So if, if you didn't have a chance to catch the last episode, let me tell you a little bit about Alicia Ramsdale. She's the founder and CEO of mindful career path, which is a platform that's dedicated to helping people find career fulfillment, when they apply mindfulness to their professional lives. So she is a certified career services provider, a global career development facilitator and holds a certificate in both mindfulness based stress reduction techniques, which I think we're going to talk a little bit about today. And organizational mindfulness. So a lot of things that'll be extremely helpful whether you are a sole contributor, or you are leading a team right now, she's a TEDx speaker. So if you have a chance, go back and watch her TEDx talk, which I think Alicia dropped in March, didn't it? It did. Yes. It's so good, you guys. And she's an expert in career development and mindfulness. And recently, she published her first children's book, The one and only incredible me, which is inspired by her own two children. And it's a book about self love and self care and self acceptance, encouraging children to embrace their uniqueness. So we're thrilled to have her back on the show today to talk a little bit more about mindfulness. Because I don't know about you. But when it comes to the way that the market is today, with the new resurgence of layoffs, it's just the hits keep coming. And the health care market and the medical sales market are definitely not immune to those hits. So I'm really excited to talk with you today. Because there have been a lot of questions coming from my clients and, and job seekers, I see especially on LinkedIn about not just job search techniques. But what are some really practical, positive ways that we can deal with this kind of situation when it comes to mindfulness? So what are your thoughts on that? Do you think that this is a new? Do you think that this is more prevalent to people now because of the market? And because of these layoffs? Or do you think it's something that people have struggled with, you know, all their life and career long?

Alicia Ramsdell 2:39

100% I think that people have struggled with this, at any point in their lives at any generation, right? Whether that's our grandparents generation, today's generation, or our kids future generations, or our future lives, everyone is bound to deal with stressful situations, uncertainty, challenges, as they are in their own world. And just to kind of take a step back mindfulness, for everybody that most likely has heard of it before. But again, it's just being present, being fully engaged in the current moment. But the difference is you want to do that non judgmentally. Right, without distraction. We live through a world of a lot of distraction, a lot of negativity, perhaps just because that's where our brain focuses, unfortunately. But there's even a term called the it's relatively new, the VUCA world V, you see a and so that stands for volatile, uncertainty, complex, and ambiguity, right. And that's just understanding that that's the world we live in. It's fast pace, we're getting a lot of information thrown at us. And I think that's only going to progress. You know, as our generation goes along, and future generations are added in. So unfortunately, it's a part of our world. But at the same time, fortunately, we have things like mindfulness and mindfulness based stress reduction techniques that we can implement into our lives and not just manage stress, but leverage the stress and power through it.

Claire Davis 4:16

I love it. I think that, you know, 10 years ago, 15 years ago, even mindfulness was still this sort of elusive woowoo buzzword. But now thankfully, I'm seeing more and more specific coaches that touch on different pieces of mindfulness. So whether it's, it seems to be even more prevalent in my from my perspective, because of COVID. And that year, where we all had to take a step back from what we were doing professionally and personally and carry forward but then the lines seem to be blurred a bit. You know, now we're working from home so the personal and the professional worlds are colliding and our children are there with us and we're still expect To be productive and to lead great teams and to get results. But I think we all found that if we didn't take care of our own selves and our minds that things were falling off the rails, at least I know that it was tough to keep the wheels on the bus at my house. So I'm so grateful that this is coming to the forefront. But I still feel that there is a mystery about certain practices that we can put into place, and things that we can do. So can you talk a little bit about maybe a couple of typical exercises you would recommend or, or maybe even how to know when it's time to start putting some mindful practice mindfulness practices into place.

Alicia Ramsdell 5:46

And just to hit on what you just said, there are common misconceptions around mindfulness, some people think it's a religious activity, some people think they need to have a significant amount of time to complete it. As an example, there is a book I read, have it with me today. It's called Peak minds. Yeah. And it's written by an I'm sorry if I butchered the name, but Dr. amici Jha, and it goes through a research based approach to you really only need for to be effective 12 minutes a day, and 12 minutes a day to do a mindfulness based practice. And everybody has 12 minutes a day. Even the busiest of the busiest, right, we all have 12 minutes a day. And her research was based on the MBSR Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction Program, but created by Jon Kabat Zinn. And that's the training program that I went through. And she talked about how she went into fields that were high stress and needed to make decisions quickly urgent decisions quickly. For her as it was, she went into the industry of the military world. And she tried to see what was the most effective, with the least amount of time that you could go to mindfulness training. And the book goes into greater detail. It's an excellent read. But she determined that 12 minutes, in addition to her scientific back research, 12 minutes a day was what you needed. And the strategies that she uses relates to body scan meditation. So as an example, every morning when I wake up, I go into a certain room that I always go into for mindfulness training. For me, it's a mental headspace that I said, You know what I know here. And now this is where I'm doing my mindfulness based training. So body scan meditation, as an example, is you're closing your eyes, and you're kind of going through your body and each body, you're just a body part, I guess. So your head, your arms, your hands, your feet, so forth, you're saying, what are the senses? I'm feeling right now, in that specific moment? And I know that might sound easy or simple, or how does that really help? But when you're focusing on those present moments, on those senses, you can't be distracted by anything else, right? You can't be thinking about, Oh, what am I going to do when I first get into work? Or what about that email that came in late last night that I need to respond to? So again, it's being non judgmental, to whatever senses that you're experiencing within that present moment. So that's just one idea about what you could do daily from a mindfulness based stress reduction point as an individual. And we can get into, you know, how organizations could implement that. But that's, that's one example. So I'll stop there. And you know, feel free to ask questions as I go.

Claire Davis 8:43

Yeah. So. So tell me a little bit more, you know, before the show, we were talking a little bit about Jon Kabat Zinn. So can you share a couple of those things that he has brought to light that have made an impact on your mindfulness work?

Alicia Ramsdell 8:56

Sure. So he created what's called the nine attitudes of mindfulness, right? And there's nonjudging. Patience, beginner's mind, trust, non striving, acceptance, letting go, gratitude, and generosity. Now, with all of those words, it's just a little cue as to how you can focus in on the present moment without letting you know, the digital addiction that we have the hyper focus on all these decisions that we have to make the information overload. So nonjudging typically, when we're involved in a conversation, somebody saying to someone saying something to us, and it hits us a certain way, and we start while that person is still talking, we start judging what they're saying how they're saying it. We're thinking about what they're thinking about, right instead of just letting the information come through accepting In the information, patience is what you would think of, you know, being patient with the process. So whether you're a sales professional, and you need to be patient with the process of, you know, from the getting the pitch or getting the conversation started to delivering the pitch to the whole process and the negotiation that goes beyond that, then there's beginner's mind, and beginner's mind is my favorite. And the reason is, because it's all about having a fresh perspective. Especially I think, as you get older and become more experienced in your role, and the higher up you go in your role. You tend to fall back on this, oh, I've done this for so long. I know how this goes. But beginner's mind allows you to come into a conversation, come into a meeting, come into session with your team and say, whatever people suggest, you know, I'm going to welcome new ideas as if it's the first time not just new ideas, even old ideas, as if it's the first time I'm ever hearing about it. And so that's why I like beginner's mind. Because sometimes we do all of us naturally get into this right up. I know how this works. But if we could take the time to step back and say, let's look at this from a new perspective. Like I'm a little kid again, and I've never heard this before. Right. The other one is trust, Loggerhead.

Claire Davis 11:28

Oh, no, no, that I think that beginner's mind is one of my favorites as well in it reminds me of a conversation I was having with a gal the other day, who was looking to get into medical sales, and she had founder sell for one reason or another, taking care of a family member and then getting into retail. And she really had the heart to get back into health care. And so one of the things that we use to help position her was that idea that you're sharing, which is the beginner's mind, because she was concerned that her lack of linear experience in the field would work against her. But I would argue, and I know many companies who are hiring now are looking for that beginner's mind of someone who can come in with fresh eyes, and do exactly what you're saying. And so we ended up using that in her positioning, and she got an exceptional job. And the the keynote for her was that she has these insights from other places, but also, she could come in with those fresh eyes with that beginner's mind, and help them to build from the ground up. And it worked great.

Alicia Ramsdell 12:34

That I mean, that's an excellent story. And I think with that as well, if you're a leader accepting that person onto your team, I think it builds resiliency for yourself and for the teammates around you to say, we're open to new ideas. And although it might be challenging to implement those new ideas, hearing them and being open to them, provides, like I said, resiliency going forward.

Claire Davis 12:58

That's an art, isn't it? To go there and say, Okay, I know, I'm the leader of the troops here. But I need to be open to letting the ideas flow up and down.

Alicia Ramsdell 13:13

Yes, and there's an I want to see it, Amazon, and I could be wrong. So I apologize if I am. But it's one of those very well known companies. And I want to say it's Amazon, and the Amazon. I think it is, but they their policies are gonna come down to the show. So I apologize. But there's a big company. And it's, there's a policy that you can't say no to new ideas, or new ideas, new concepts are sure. And if you can, the only way you can you have to write, let's call it a one page paper on why you think it's not the right time or not the right idea at that moment. And then you have to then present that. Right. So it prevents people from just automatic Nope. Right, that automatic. It's not going to work. It's never been done. We can't do that.

Claire Davis 14:01

Oh no, I want to find out who that is. Yeah, I know, if you. Email us after the show. We want to know if it's you.

Alicia Ramsdell 14:12

Really, yes. Anyway, so then you have trust. And again, that's similar to being patient. It's just trusting yourself, trusting the process, in, in your life, in your career, and so forth. And then the other thing that I think is kind of funny, and it almost sounds counterintuitive to the way this world works and like the hustle culture, right? Is non striving. And really, that's just letting go of this constant need for a constant desire for more. Right? It's, it's as if we're never just stopping to take a moment to say, I like where I'm at right now. I'm comfortable where I'm at right now. And it's not to say you don't have goals and long term goals, but I feel like we're always in this zone of we need more. We need more. We need more and we're not again appreciating the process.

Claire Davis 15:01

Yeah, the next one is okay. Yeah, the thing that last, the last five years, one of the biggest changes that I saw to content on LinkedIn, and you know, we're on LinkedIn all the time, especially marketing, but was celebrate the small wins, the small wins, everyone celebrate the small wins. And I sort of feel like that's in parallel to what you're talking about, because it sort of forces you to sit down and analyze where you are now in respect to where you were, then. And to appreciate something. It could be just getting up and doing it again. You know, so I really, I like that one. I think it's important.

Alicia Ramsdell 15:37

Yeah, absolutely. And like I said, I just think it's kind of counterintuitive to everything that we hear nowadays about the hustle culture. So I'm glad it's, it's out there. Yeah. And then the other one was acceptance, right? Like it what you would think, right, accepting things as they are, and feeling that, hey, we can let go this, we don't have to be resistant to you know, what's happening, it is happening. And then we can pivot from there. Right. So the last one is less or not less than one of those that's related to it is letting go. So again, there's always this feeling of were attached to an idea, we're attached to a career, we're attached to how something is supposed to go the process of sales, the process of this, letting go to any of those attachments. And that, to me is a big one. And the reason I think about it being a big one is if you think about how we breathe, so when we breathe in, every time we have to breathe out. Now obviously, if we didn't breathe out, we wouldn't be living. So it's the same thing with stress ever, we're always taking stress in. And we just hold it there. And we never let it go. The style of our lives, how we live, it's just unimaginable, compared to if you let things go, and you can actually release it and then move on in a positive direction. It's just that much better. So I really, I really like the two together the acceptance in the letting go, which is a struggle for the most most of us, right? I think that letting things go sometimes, especially in our careers, especially in the process. So this is not what I anticipated, or not how I anticipated this would go letting you go and set for a new, maybe a pivot but a new positive direction.

Claire Davis 17:31

Ooh, yes, absolutely. And you know what, I'll tell you what I feel like, there's nothing like, you know, we were talking about layoffs in the beginning, but there's nothing quite like being let go, to be forced to let go. Because of so many people who I've worked with, who have gone through layoffs, as I have. What's interesting to me, is that almost all of them, after a certain amount of time, will tell me, You know what, Claire, I'm actually glad it happened. Because I had really been needing a shake up in my life, or I had been meaning to leave for a long time, but I just hadn't got around to it, or so on and so forth, you know that I didn't appreciate the culture anymore. It's not what I believed in, I was getting bored, all of those things. And I think, do you feel like it's so difficult to let go of who we are in our career, because we almost define ourselves as our career for such a long time. I mean, goodness, we're there 75% of our lives.

Alicia Ramsdell 18:40

100% you're so invested in this identity, that you almost feel guilty, leaving it moving forward. So I 100% agree with you. Personally, I experienced that. But I think that's a common theme. Right? I went to school for this, or I've been in this industry for so long, or I've been in this style of a role for so long. How could I possibly pivot? And there's almost like, you feel a sense of guilt, or at least I felt a sense of guilt, leaving a certain identity within my career. And I it's unfortunate that we experienced it, you could everyone can relate. I feel like you can see why because is that the years of experience or the time that you invested the energy, maybe financially, what you invested. But but especially with the layoffs, like you're saying, I've heard the same thing, that after a certain amount of time, you know, to digest the information and to experience the emotions. When people typically have moved on to that next career role. They've said it was actually a good thing. Right? A blessing in disguise. Yep. blessing that happens for most Yeah.

Claire Davis 19:52

Yeah. I mean, can you tell us a little bit about your story, so tell us about that pivot. So where you were born and then the Unexpect To change.

Alicia Ramsdell 20:01

In short, so I was in my education, my background was Accounting and Taxation from undergraduate degree as well as master's degree. And I started in public accounting, I continued on for 15 years or 15 plus years in the accounting tax industry. And people might say, Wow, that's crazy you because I knew, almost right away, that I really wasn't for me. But I was able to work for an organization that I stayed there for 11 years. That was, for the most part. Wonderful, right? I had some really incredible leaders, I really enjoyed the work that I was not the work necessarily, but I really enjoyed the people that I was working with. Sure, right. And that's why I believe I stayed so long, in addition to financial stability, job security, I mean, what's more secure than accounting and tax? So people like no, I desperately need people like you.

Claire Davis 20:58

So yes.

Alicia Ramsdell 21:02

So I enjoyed that. But there was a point where I left my role. You know, I had small kids. So I moved to another role that was close to home, and everything kind of seemed perfect on paper. But it was high stress, right? It was 24/7. And even though it was supposed to be like a part time role, I felt that my mind was on it full time. And it was very stressful. And it was at that transition in my life, that I started to get started feel an overwhelming amount of stress, I play soccer for fun, and I was playing in a UN, I call it the old lady League of soccer. And I was at a game and usually when I played in these games, I was carefree I was, you know, just doing my thing. And I remember being on a soccer field one night and just, I couldn't stop these overwhelming negative thoughts. And I said, this isn't right. And I've experienced stress, obviously, in my past, but I was able to move through it somehow where it with no set agenda. But this time, I couldn't just move through it. So I started exploring and having conversations with various people. And one book that somebody recommended that I read is called strengthened stillness by Bob Roth. And that book is the introduction for me to Transcendental Meditation. And its mantra style meditation. And what I was doing was 20 minutes at the beginning of the day, 20 minutes at the end of the day of this mantra meditation. And this book goes through all of these, I think we'd like to read about famous people. But all of these famous people that implemented Transcendental Meditation, I think Seinfeld was one of them, and many others. And so that was my start in meditation. And from there, I started the MBSR training course, with Jon Kabat Zinn. And then just recently, I finished the organizational mindfulness class, which is, if you think about it a spin off of the MBSR training course. So but more focused on the workplace, and so forth. So when that all happened, I was still in corporate America, I ended up going back to my old company. And I started to self reflect and say, Why am I here? What do I want out of this? Is this the inspiration I want to give to my kids and kind of leave with this world? You know, years and years from now when I'm well and gone? And I said, Well, no, but what is it that I want to do, and that's when career development came up. And fast forward, I started my whole career path. And I want to expose clients to these ideas of how mindfulness training within our careers is fundamental at this point of not just managing stress, or figuring out how to deal with it. But leveraging that inevitable stress that's going to come along the way.

Claire Davis 23:57

Oh, that's so powerful. We talk a lot about how being prepared before it's necessary is the way to be successful in life, whether it's your career, your family, your your home, life, your whatever you're doing. And I'm so inspired by what you're doing, because you're giving people the tools to navigate whatever they need to productively and so that we don't get caught on the end of that spiral of stress, like you were at your soccer game. And so, you know, we I personally think about meditation, Transcendental Meditation, yoga, mindfulness as a personal practice, but can I know you're doing it for organizations now, too, so can you talk a little bit about how some of these things are applied at an organizational level? And what are some of the benefits that people see when they do this?

Alicia Ramsdell 25:00

Sure. So there's a couple of ways that organizations could implement mindfulness based strategies, right, you can actually conduct a mindfulness workshop and training session for employees, because some people, you know, they might not really understand kind of how that how is this going to help them in their role? How is this going to help the overall organization, you know, from a profitability standpoint, right, because a lot of organizations are for profit, and people might not see the connection. So just running a training, running a basic training of what it is, and how it can be effective, right, and how it can be incorporated into your daily routines. As an example, if you're a sales professional, or somebody that typically leads presentations, right, there's the 5 4 3 2 1 technique, which is something I use often when I go into a presentation, and what it is, as you say, you know, in your head or out loud, but five things that you can see and say them out loud, then you say four things that you can touch, three things that you can hear two things that you can smell, and one thing that you can taste. And what this does this technique does it grounds you in the present moment, when you're, you know, looking at the five things, touching the four things, hearing the three things, and so forth, you can't possibly be thinking about what you were worried about before, or what you're worried about in the future. So what grounds you in the present moment, to then move forward into that sales pitch, move forward into that presentation. And that and that's just that's just one example. But that's, that's things that an organization could help train based on the industry that they're in based on the type of work that you're in. Another thing that, I think naturally, people are, you know, love a good challenge, or sometimes we can be competitive. So you can develop a mindfulness Challenge program, you know, for your employees, everybody practices, certain mindfulness exercises, and they track their progress, you can incentivize it and give away prizes, and so forth. But if you make it more about fun, rather than just, we're going to sit down for 20 minutes and be really quiet. And still, you know, some people that might not sound enticing, but if you put a competitive edge to it, the people that might not be into it would be.

Claire Davis 27:25

Being that this thing, medical sales podcast, they're deaf, we're, we're in for a competition. So give you a game plan, and I will crush it. I love it. I'm always taking tons of notes. When you're on the show, by the way, I just realized I'm looking down because I've got already three pages of notes, my notebook. Okay. I love that making it fun. That's a great idea.

Alicia Ramsdell 27:44

Yeah. And then the other thing is, if you think about the people that want to do it, but they're a little bit shy about how do I practice mindfulness exercises, is creating a space within an hour. It's funny, because not not everyone's back in the office. But let's say you're back in the office, create designating a quiet space in the office, you know, for people to practice mindfulness exercises, maybe they offer, you know, you know, headphones and guided meditation sessions that you can use, while you're in the office, have that dedicated space, so people can walk in there and be surrounded with, you know, like minded individuals who also want to practice mindfulness exercises, and maybe they can have conversations within they're like, Oh, what do you what exercise have you been doing? What's been working for you, and really promote the excitement for it. And then the other thing that I think about is hosting, you know, weekly meditation sessions, you could do that, and having an open line of communication, right? So if if it always starts at least my perspective, and that might be, it might not everyone might not share the same perspective, but my perspective is always that you know, top down so if leaders are saying that, hey, we hate we have an open lines of communication, to talk about. Work on you first, right, your mental health, your stress levels, if you need a you know, that mental break, we're we want to have everyone take, you know, whatever, whatever it is, every 25 minutes, just take a break from what you're doing, you know, walk around, have a five minute break, and then come back to your work reengaged there's the whole Pomodoro technique, where you work for 25 minutes, break for five, do that four times and then take a longer break for 15. But when you are present, and you mentally aware of where you are, what you're doing and why you're doing it and free from distraction, you're able to be obviously more focused, but more productive and build resiliency within your long term goals in your career.

Claire Davis 29:51

I love that it's it's the intentionality of it. Isn't it like making it? Something routine expected setting the stage It reminded me of a breathing technique that I was looking at, probably six months ago. And this gentleman was this incredible breathing technique trainer. And he was saying, No, listen, only do this, well, I'll get to that part of it. So he shows this breathing technique, and essentially, you're holding it for a few seconds, and then you're letting it out for a few seconds in a certain way. And so I'm trying this, also, I'm driving. I realized Alicia is not the place. So when he's talking about how to set these stages, right, a lot of medical salespeople are in the car all the time, I caution you against maybe the deeper breathing techniques and things in the car. But there are so many other places like if you're in a case, if you're in that, or you know how long it is between, you know, when they're opening, and they're using your product, and you know, you're kind of working the room, but there are downtimes. So taking those downtimes, that could be a really great place to say, Okay, I've got those 12 minutes, right, I've got six minutes here, I've got six minutes while I'm waiting outside, at the scrub sake. Maybe before and after you have a call with the manager maybe before and after you go into an office and you're sitting in that waiting room and hopefully networking on LinkedIn or looking at some of the magazines to chat up the front desk. But there are plenty of times when we can set intentional routines for ourselves. So so if somebody wanted to start this, if say someone's never meditated at all, mindfulness is new to them. Now we've kind of debunked that it's not this scary fufu thing. It's It's really incredible thing to how should they start? Where would you say some a newbie would dip their toe in?

Alicia Ramsdell 31:56

Sure. So there's, we were just talking about, you could do this anywhere daily. And maybe not driving a car with a deep breathing, but, but even just if you if you are going to take a walk, whether you work from home, and you're walking around your neighborhood, or you you work in the office, and you're just walking from one floor to the next, mindful walking, feel your heel and your toe touch every time you walk by just concentrating on that sensation. If you just want to start there. That's one spot. If while you're eating, let's just say you're eating by yourself and not having a conversation with someone else. But if you're eating alone, mindful eating. So every Chew every bite, and sometimes we'll just walk down our food because we get to go to the next meeting. And the next thing, right, but sensing we did this during actually the MBSR program, we took like what they asked us to get like a little snack and I had like an m&m. And it was like, it was like a five minute process. It was one m&m, but it was like, you know, what is it tastes like? What is what is it? How does it feel in your mouth? What it you know? So again, it sounds silly when I say it out loud. But it really works. Because you're like, Wow, I've never tasted an m&m like this before.

Claire Davis 33:06

Here's the question. Did it melt in your hand in those five?

Alicia Ramsdell 33:12

Although, yes, it did. Actually. I need to put it. But so so that's, that's the start of it. But the the peak mind book is great. And, you know, some people like I don't have a lot of time. It's, it is a thick book. But this book is great. And what I love about is even if you don't read the whole book to start, because you're busy. There is a breakdown of week one, week two, week three, you know, day one through day seven, and it goes into No, you guys can't see that. But it goes into here's the core practice that you're going to do. You know, find your flashlight for 12 minutes, and then even tells you what page to go to, to learn more about what's the Find your flashlight. So let's just dive into that for a second. Sure. If you're if you're a newbie and you say, all right, Alicia, I have five minutes in the morning. That's all I can dedicate fine. What you can do is you can let's say you're lying down and you're seated in a comfortable position. I want you just to be present with your thoughts are so focused on your breath. And when your thoughts take over, and you said think oh, I have to respond to that email. Okay. Pay attention to that for a second. You're aware that you're now distracted and thinking about your email. Bring that flashlight back to your breath. So imagine a flashlight and where that light is focused on. Bring the flashlight back to your breath. And then every time your mind waters again, bring that flashlight back to focusing in on your breath. That light should be focused in on your breath. That way, yes, you're going to be distracted. Don't judge yourself for that. That's okay. Except the fact that you have things going on in your life right now and your mind might be taken to those places, acknowledge it, and then bring that flashlight back. So that could just be a five minute practice. What Dr. Ameche Jha discusses is to be effective 12 minutes is the ideal to get to from a minimum perspective. And then of course, you can build on that, as an example, the MBSR training course, we were practicing 45 minutes daily, right. So every morning, when I would wake up, it was 45 minutes daily of body scan meditation, there was, you know, sitting meditation, walking, meditation, and so forth. So it really just depends. But if you're a newbie, and you just have whatever it is, you have five minutes, start with the Find your flashlight, exercise, and focus on your breath. And every time that thought comes up, acknowledge it, accept it, and then bring that flashlight back.

Claire Davis 35:53

Oh, my gosh, this is powerful stuff. I feel like this. I mean, we've been chatting for what, 40 minutes. And this is sort of a mini masterclass on things you can try right now. Maybe not driving, but yourself. And your team so. So to kind of bring it full circle. Alicia, can you tell us, you know, when you've guided people into mindfulness teams into mindfulness and these different practices, what are some of the things that you're seeing them discover or benefits that they're getting? On the other side of this, these things?

Alicia Ramsdell 36:29

Sure. So one of the things that I've realized is that our attention is what's been taking away from us as individuals, right, whether that's in our careers or in our lives, in general, again, we mentioned before digital addiction, workplace distractions, you know, decision fatigue, we're, our attention is the scarce resource nowadays. And so one of the exercises that I learned recently, and then I've been, you know, talking with my clients about is this idea of stop the acronym. So S stands for stop, whatever you're doing, if you're feeling stressed, right, just stop, S stands for stop, whatever you're doing and pause. T stands for, take some deep breaths, center yourself in the present moment, you know, it is what it is, it's happening, center yourself in the present moment. Always observe your environment without judgment. So wherever you're feeling stress, as long as you're not in harm's way, but wherever you are feeling stressed, and observe what's happening, right, whether it's, you know, workplace issues, or whatnot, but observe what's happening. And then P is proceed, or I like to say pivot in a positive direction. Because sometimes we, we ruminate on what it is, it's happening, and then we go down this rabbit hole of this is happening because of this. And now, you know, my career is going down the tubes, when all it was was the person on the other end was just having a bad day. And it really meant nothing. So just using as a simple example, but I see when I'm working with clients that it's our attention. And what we focus on is what we become. So if instead of allowing our attention to focus on all of the negative, and we're able to just stop and read, focus or pivot into the positive, whatever's going on, it's well during that given time. That's what benefits most individuals that I work with is just retraining where your attention is. And building from that. And again, just changing that pattern, just changing where we focus, our attention can go a long way. And that's, that's, I would say the majority of what happens when I work with clients and how they're able to move away from this, this negative mindset.

Claire Davis 39:00

I feel like that is going to open up so many doors. Because when we are in the medical selling situation, for example, right, we're getting input from physicians from the higher ups in our company, from the marketing team, from our colleagues, and then not to mention every other piece of that circle of care that we touch with every single interaction. It's a lot. And so being able to remember, okay, this is how I'm feeling. I'm feeling I'm feeling this way, or I'm stressed by this thing, or this is there's so much on my plate. I love this stop exercise, because I think that it gives that mental space for us to really evaluate what's going on and kind of almost, from my perspective, organize what's coming at us, and then see if really how we're feeling is just a reaction to our environment or if it's something else, and helps I can imagine this would help people be more productive have better communication, having better communication with their teams. Really powerful stuff.

Alicia Ramsdell 40:08

So when you look, if I add one thing to that, nurse, yeah, and another, another book and recently finished, which is, I think, a great read, again, a long book, but it's called The Four Hour Workweek, which I'm sure many of you have heard about. But what I one of the things, it's not technically a mindfulness activity, but I view it as one, I guess, it's not really advertised as a mindfulness activity. But I view it as one is setting a timeframe for you talk about digital distraction or emails, or, you know, the worst. So, but if you set an out of office on your email as an example, and let's just say you want to respond to emails that you know, 10am and 3pm. Putting that as you're out of office all the time putting that as you're out of office, I will respond, I will be viewing emails and responding, responding in such a way at 10am and 3pm, Monday through Fridays, if this is an absolute emergency, here's my number. Now, what this does is people like well, then everyone's gonna start calling me know, what it allows people to do is actually on their end, think through stop and think through, is this an emergency? Do I really need to call them right now. And I would say, let's call it nine times out of 10, people aren't going to call you because it's not an emergency, right? And they realize, okay, this isn't a top priority right now. So there's no need for me to call you. And on the off chance that they do call you, then you can handle and discuss what's a priority, or if there are conflicting priorities. But I thought that from a workplace perspective, that's what I would view as a mindfulness exercise that you can actually implement. And if you commit to that, you can then just shut off your email. So you're not getting distracted with these, you know, digital dings and digital beeps of trying to get your attention. Right. That's a that's a big one. And then even from like, a personal perspective, within your career, we all have cell phones, right? I put my cell phone on airplane mode during the timeframes that I'm working, and it doesn't allow people outside of what I'm looking to get done to distract me.

Claire Davis 42:26

Yes, yes, the constant dings as I know, a dangerous came through right then as we were talking about the day, perfectly timed. But But you're right, I noticed for, you know, I noticed for myself is that if I can, if I can carve out certain windows, when I'm not when I can really focus on one task. And as a as a, as a mother, as a, as a resume writer, as a career coach, as a business owner. That's challenging. But the first three years of business, I didn't do that. And now I'm getting better about setting my schedule up in those blocks, or time blocking, or however, you know, how people have anyone wants to call it, it's incredibly helpful. And I was shocked at how much more I could get done in that, say, 45 minutes, then I was getting done, because I had been context switching or trying to do so many different types of tasks at the same time.

Alicia Ramsdell 43:26

So and I think there's scientific research to that if you switch between one task to another, no matter how small it might seem, you're just trying to respond to a quick five minute email and then come back to do whatever it is you were doing. I think they said technically, it takes 23 minutes to get back to being fully engaged where you were before. So even if the task only takes five minutes, the scientific research behind it is that it takes something like 23 minutes to be back and fully engaged. Wow. So that's, that's, that's that cost of task switching, rather than what we think is multitasking. Wow,

Claire Davis 44:03

Wow, I know, we, we pride ourselves on multitasking so often, and it's really hurting us in our productivity.

Alicia Ramsdell 44:11

Okay, so even in job descriptions to it'll say, you know, ability to multitask, yes.

Claire Davis 44:14

You're like maybe that's not the place for maybe, maybe that's not a good thing. Maybe it's an opportunity, though to go in and, you know, kind of share a strategy for how you do productivity, right? Or how exactly it oh my gosh, Alicia, I could talk to you for for days like every time we have a conversation. I'm thinking well, we could do another episode on this for that. So thank you so much for walking us through so much on mindfulness today. I mean, you guys we've talked about the five the Find your flashlight, exercise, the 54321 exercise, the heel to toe step if you just want to get started and try a little bit of mindfulness and and see how it works for you. And I encourage you everyone listening if you have a chance after you've listened to the show If you try any of the things that Alicia mentioned today, please let us know. You can hit us up in the DM send us a message, you can send it right to Claire at traction resume.com. But I want to know and hear from you do these mindfulness techniques really help you? I know that some of them and similar ones have been monumental in the shift that in the benefits that we've, you know, been able to see. So I want to hear from you, and how they work from you. So if people want to find out more, Alicia, if they're looking to get a little deeper on this subject, or maybe they're thinking, Oh, my gosh, please come and coach, me and my team come in and share this wisdom with us. Where have you been all my life? Where can they find you? Sure.

Alicia Ramsdell 45:44

If you go to mindfulcareerpaths.com any of those social media outlets that I'm connected with, or the companies connected with? They're right there. You can email me at Alicia RAM cell at mindful career path.com as well as I live on LinkedIn, so you can DM me there. One of the things I want to mention as we went through the nine attitudes of mindfulness by Jon Kabat Zinn, but we didn't get to the last two, so I just wanted to quickly say them out loud, but it is gratitude and generosity.

Claire Davis 46:19

Next show. In fact, I would love to do a gratitude show with you. That's a that's a huge tenant of our core business principles. And it's it's magic. Gratitude is is truly magic. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for everything you've shared. Again. Here's to I guess, round three, when we talk about gratitude and generosity. And really, Alicia, we're so excited by what you're doing out there. It's so important what you're doing out there. And thank you so much for taking the time to share it with us.

Alicia Ramsdell 46:49

Hey, it's my pleasure. And anytime I get to talk to you, Claire. It's a good conversation.

Claire Davis 46:53

Oh, I totally agree. Well, thank you, everyone, for thank you for joining us today. Alicia, you're a gem. Thank you so much for sharing all this wisdom with us. And please take a moment. Find out more about Alicia Ramsdale. On LinkedIn, go check out her website and get in touch with her because if you're not practicing mindfulness yet, as you can see here today, there are a lot of very simple and easy ways that you can get started and incredible, incredible benefits on the other side. So until next time, thank you, everybody for listening to today's medical sales later. And Alicia, thanks again for joining us.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

How You Can Use Data to Identify and Target Your Audience

AI-Generated Transcript below. There may be errors.

Claire Davis 0:20

Hey, everybody, and welcome back to today's medical sales leader with Claire Davis. And today, you might know this gentleman sitting next to me for his incredible mustache, you might know him because of his career as a traveling drummer. And you also might know him for his amazing company, custom medical marketing. So today I have with me Seth turn off, and I am so thrilled to have him with me because he is changing the way that practices source their patients by the data. So Seth, welcome to the show. I'm so glad to have you here.

Seth Turnoff 0:52

Thank you so much. It is my pleasure as well.

Claire Davis 0:56

Oh, my gosh. So it's been long overdue. I didn't even mention the dad jokes yet. There's so many things that people know and love about you. So to kick us off, can you tell us a little bit about what you're doing these days with CMM? And also with ortho loop? Sure. Sure.

Seth Turnoff 1:11

Great question. Thanks, Claire. CMM, custom medical marketing. It's a company that I started in 2019. We started as an answer to all of the vanilla, possibly useful marketing tactics that are available to private practices and surgeons. Today, we acquire highest likelihood patients, for our clients based on the people's needs. Most marketing programs start with the product or the service, you pick your channels, and you you put out your advertisement, or whatever the communication is, and you hope that the people that need to see it, see it and are compelled to take action, what we do is we start with the people that are most likely to need a total join, most likely to need a cardiovascular or vascular surgeon. And we tailor that message to those people directly. And the main value prop and what we do is our ability to identify prospective patients, but also show our clients who showed up as a result of our strategy. We know the identity of all of the people in our audience, it sounds very creepy. And it kind of is, the good news is that we only care if they fit our persona for a specific procedure or service line.

Claire Davis 2:38

Got it? So you know, tell us a little bit about this. Let's break it apart. Because I think that for any anybody here who's a physician or anybody here who's calling on physicians, especially in private practice, where, you know, they are making their living by not how their marketing is doing without them knowing exactly by the data, the data, but by the patients who come through the door. So who is this really for?

Seth Turnoff 3:06

Awesome question. So it's for the surgeon, the physician, the practice. And that's primary, secondarily it, it is for the patients, you know, healthcare has become, I hate to say it, it's a commodity, okay. And people are going to search for care, the way that everybody searches for care, we all have the internet, and we all have access to the same information from a retail perspective, right? I am clumsy, I rolled my ankle, I need an orthopedist or, or at least an x ray or at least someone who can help to take a look at this tell me whether it's really hurt or if I'm just being a baby, right? So. So it's for the surgeon to not just identify their best patients, but also actually communicate with them in a way that gets them to come in for a console. A lot of the marketing tactics that are out there, they they're good at at at flying a flag, right? Yeah. Something and being in front of people. But the problem in health care has always been attribution, being able to show confidently that it's working. And there's a lot of groups that will talk about metrics or, or clicks or open to these things that okay, it sounds really, you know, important. At the end of the day, if you're spending money on a program to acquire patient, that program needs to tell you how many patients were acquired and extra points if you can tell me who was acquired so that I can follow them around throughout the episodic nature of whatever care they're receiving, and put actual dollar signs to it. Because marketing was always set up to be to generate revenue, not to be something that well we were just spending this money and instead It's working, or I guess it's working, or I hope it's working. We have no real way to tie what we're spending to what we're making the study. Yeah.

Claire Davis 5:07

And you know, in the last 1015 years with managed care taking over so many practices for those physicians who are still in touch with marketing their own practice, and needing to market their own practice, and practice and farm, that business, go hunt the right people to bring in the door, they really need to know these things. And I feel like, I don't know if you know this, but I used to be in marketing for a company called Sutter Health. And, you know, when we would promote our surgeons, it was always, these are the best heart surgeons in town, like that literally was our marketing. Every billboard was about how wonderful they were with degrees that they had. But it it was very difficult to track that. So when should a practice say I'd say I'm a physician, and I'm trying to grow my ortho practice? Maybe I'm an orthopedic surgeon. At what point do I need to recognize, okay, maybe those billboards that are up on highway 80. East are working, but I really can't tell. So when do they call somebody like you?

Seth Turnoff 6:16

I love it. Your questions are so good, clear, they're so good. And it doesn't surprise me that you were in marketing at all. And it doesn't surprise me that you were in marketing at all, when it's a good time when when you start to question whether or not your tactics are working, or whether you're looking to start looking at different tactics or different things to do look, referrals. From a physician standpoint, referrals are the gold standard, that the best way to get ideal patients into your door. However, the referral process, depending on how you're tracking them, it takes a lot of work to go in there you okay, you might have some liaisons that are doing the work, and they're just like out there hunting, you got to keep up with them, you got to make sure that they're doing the work and that like, Oh, you have a great relationship with this doc across town, and he's referring you out the business. He goes away every summer for two months. And like, so it stops him. I'm not saying don't do it. I'm saying that the referrals are a great business development tool. But if you're starting to spend money on outreach, right, billboards are awesome. And I used to think that that was such a waste of money and our flagship puppets, who we've been with since 2019. They have billboards, and at first I was I was thinking about something like, they are just absolutely wasting money on that, how do you like, and I've changed my tune, because I know that their billboards have a positive effect on the campaigns that we are running for them. It only matters because you can't track attribution from a billboard. And I know that if those billboards were there, our numbers would not be as high as they are. So a billboard or connected TV or Ott, there's a lot of tactics that are great for branding, getting in front of people and like just casting a wide net across an audience, without any type of differentiation on age range, or household income or purchase patterns, or whether these people are active lifestyle, or sedentary or have a lower BMI, or whatever the barometers are. So don't get once you start spending more money on marketing, you know, you have to decide, is it branding? Am I just looking for general awareness? Or am I looking to acquire patients with this? And I've often said that the difference between attracting patients and acquiring patients is the ability to know who booked the console who became a patient as a result of the efforts. So the stakes but you know, as first pass if you're if you're, if you don't do deep dives into marketing, if you're just kind of like, if if you think that it's a lever and you pull the lever and something happens, you know, it, it might be real confusing. But again, that's the argument for outsourcing. Right? And I've seen it before, I'm starting to like shift here a little bit clearer. But I know you'll stay with me. I think this is relevant. I believe that the reason that it's always been, okay, and the status quo within healthcare, to just like, rah, I mean, we're spending with money on Google ads or pay per click or, or SEO strategy and we think it's worked with the only reason that that's okay. And healthcare. My theory is because the people that are charged with the operations of marketing and the responsibility of acquiring new patients, they're already wearing 678 10 hats. This is healthcare there are especially at the private practice level, they are spread thin. So if it's, if it's the way that we've always done things, and that's all they have bandwidth for them, that's what it's gonna be. I'm not saying that we're the right solution for everybody. I'm just saying that there are other things out there. Claire Davis 10:00 No, you know, I like what you say. Because I think that and I'm guilty of this too, having been in that seat of making the marketing decisions and putting the plans together, largely on hope. Okay? And really, it wasn't because we were trying to swindle and sway it was because sometimes we didn't have that information. And now in this digital age, where AI is connected to everything, we're med tech is getting real life, real time metrics in the or like the the, the opportunity for us to get our hands on data to really meet patients where they are right now, instead of like, imagine me around the conference table with my other marketers. And we were, you know, we would be pitching about how we we needed to get that billboard up. And the way that we gauged the visibility was was very honestly, by how, by, by traffic patterns.

Seth Turnoff 11:00

Yeah, like this many people metric that you have for a billboard like That's right. And exactly, they have those things, like the things that you run over on the highway, right, they see how many cars are going by and what the patterns look like. I think it's just about knowing where the data comes from. And just using whatever you have in the billboard case, like, yeah, there's limited data, and you don't know who these people are in their cars, you assume they're going to work or the god like, I mean, it doesn't matter if it's a billboard. But I think that it's a, it's pretty common in healthcare, especially in private practice, that you have people who are running around doing a lot of different jobs. I've seen some practices that are run just exceptionally and I've seen some that that need a little more help. And you know, you there's, there's politics, there's personalities, they're scheduled, but there's workflows, and there's culture, and that always comes from the top. Right. And I think that if a practice cares about its patients, the patient experience that everything else should follow into, you know, I mentioned yesterday, I was talking to someone that if only healthcare could take a page from Chick Fil A's handbook, in terms of the experience and like, it's my pleasure, of course, and like, just, why can't it be like that? In healthcare? And look, I don't really have anything to do with that area. But look, we're all involved in health care. So I'm professionally and some as you know, patients, so I mean, I think there's a way for the people that want to make something different or better. There's a way to do it. I unfortunately, have to have to stay in my seat. Right, at least for that concern, because I mean, I'm not trying to change everything.

Claire Davis 12:47

I mean, world domination, I'm sure is on the table for you. q3 q3, yeah, right. Maybe Yeah, right. Maybe when Solomon's like a teenager, you know, when you've got that time, and he's in the right time,

Seth Turnoff 12:59

and no pressure, just,

Claire Davis 13:02

oh, my gosh, this little guy is gonna be famous before he even knows it. So, you know, you bring up a really great point, because it's as if we would go into a physician and they would say, Okay, what do you you know, what's ailing you? Okay, well, my broad approach would be try any of these things, and we hope they'll work. But that's not what we expect from a physician, right? Of course, they are coming at our specific DS disease state or issue with like, a, you know, very definitive ways of, you know, assessing what's going on triaging us and then giving us the precise thing that they believe will help us get better. So it sounds a little bit like you're, you're like the doctor of marketing in this way. So when someone is looking at, okay, what variables have I been going off of now for my marketing? Maybe I'm just trying to, you know, maybe I'm just trying to market to people in a certain certain age bracket and location, how deep does your team go? Or do you guys go when you're looking at demographics and psychographics? Like, what are some of the things that we're not even looking at yet that we shouldn't be?

Seth Turnoff 14:09

Sure. So the low hanging fruit is, obviously a range of some practices aren't really interested in Medicare aged patients or, or for specific surgeries. And, you know, it just depends on what market you serve, right? So age range is a low hanging fruit, also income and your payer mix, right? If you want to, you understand your payer mix, you understand what percentages of your revenues are coming from which payers which payers that you're contracted with have higher reimbursements or lower. So that's going to kind of point you in the direction of who you should be going after. In terms of patient acquisition. Now, the things that we look at, of course, the demographics, you know, where you live, your age range your household Income, or if there's someone in your house, who, and we look at the psychographics, like active lifestyles, sedentary lifestyle, play sports, you know, our bunion persona. It includes women who aerobics, yoga, anything, that's where they need to remove their shoes to do also, shoe shoppers and designer shoe shoppers, you figure someone who belongs to a country club or has a certain net worth as an individual?

Claire Davis 15:34

Oh, no, that's what's coming.

Seth Turnoff 15:38

And it's not about the shoes, it's about does this person possess the traits or attributes that are possessed by the majority of the patients? Sure, there's always outliers. And you know, in the case of when, when we're looking for Medicare aged patients, obviously, the higher up you go in range in age, the lower the digital aptitude is right, like, I don't know, too many, you know, 78 year olds who are like actively, like on their Facebook looking for minimally invasive spine surgery. So I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but you know, it, or people who are over the age of 60, who do CrossFit?

Claire Davis 16:21

Yes, is one of our select for our total joint audience and our total joint audience, depending on the client will go up to age 75.

Seth Turnoff 16:23

Right? We don't know if if Mr. Jones, is like CrossFitting on the weekends and throwing those giant tires around, you know, when he's not, you know, seeing this orthopedic practice. But I digress. You know, the, the data that's available today is a lot more specific to a person to an individual, than was available years ago. Yeah. So if we're not, if we're not using the data to not only identify effectively identify people who we want to communicate with who we need to know, who need to know that we exist as a practice, and we can solve their problem. It also helps to maintain the overspend, because when you're buying a billboard, right for a month, there's gonna be 1000s of people that see the billboard that don't really care about what's on the Billboard. Yeah, so our program where we're, we are able to just pinpoint, and target that individual or that household, specifically with our message. So it eliminates a lot of the overspend and fluff.

Claire Davis 17:41

Yeah, you're like a scalpel instead of a hammer.

Seth Turnoff 17:44

Right? I like that. I'm stealing. Yeah, thank you, you know,

Claire Davis 17:47

and for anyone who's watching right now and thinking, Oh, this sounds a little creepy. Like this sounds a little bit like someone's looking at my information. Let me share this story with you. And I don't talk about this a whole lot, but I think this might apply. So after my second son, we about a month after I found myself with a swollen leg. And the short story is I was lucky enough to have continued networking with some of the doctors I used to work with. And lo and behold, it was a DVT, which if anybody doesn't know, it's deep vein, thrombosis, and it's essentially a clot and within probably hours of losing my life, which I know sounds really dramatic for 7am, for when this is airing today. I was rushed in and saved by a doctor that I'm now you know, indebted to forever. But here's why I mentioned it. I as a post partum woman had no idea that this was even possible. Like I didn't even know that this was something that people who recently have had babies should be looking out for. So if my OB who thought you're too young for a DVT that's not what this is. Right? And granted, he didn't see me in person. But you know, he was in disbelief too. But if a if a if a physician's office had known to reach out to more people who had recently had babies to spread that kind of awareness. I mean, I'm sure there are women who weren't as lucky as me to have those personal connections with it interventional radiologists to fix them on the fly, you know, so what you're sharing is so incredibly helpful because it helps patients to even be aware that there are solutions or that like you shared with the with the you know the footwear example and doing yoga with your shoes off. People might not even recognize that that could lead to bunion issues later on. So what I think you're doing is really phenomenal because it's just as helpful for physicians and growing their practices as patients who they need a they need a high so that this stuff could happen to them, and that they should be on the lookout 100%.

Seth Turnoff 20:04

You know, talking about it from a patient education standpoint, like, so we're on the front end, right? We're messaging people who probably aren't patients yet trying to get them to become patients. But once a patient is, does get care from a specific practice, I take that journey, whatever that patient's journey is based on CPT codes or diagnosis codes that the practice can utilize to communicate with them effectively. There's millions of different combinations of workflows and communications that could be triggered by specific diagnoses. I hate to say this, but every patient is only one bad visit away from switching doctors. It's up to the practice to care for that patient. And that's everything, not just you know, the care that the physician provides. But the front desk and the communications afterwards, make it easy to pay a bill and like just understand that you're not you're replaceable. Sure, a lot of patients like they wouldn't think of going anywhere else because the thought of having to move all your all your documentation, your intake stuff to another practice and you have access to like some people are get anxious about that. But I think it just comes down to wanting to do a great job for your patients and having the the tools to do that.

Claire Davis 21:33

Yeah, absolutely. I got to ask you. So what made you get into this because I find it so interesting how people end up in the jobs that they have. So what brought you from you've got an if anybody hasn't followed SAP yet, by the way, if you have a moment, do it right now. Okay, so I'm looking at your your work history. You were a taxi driver before Uber was cool, right? You were a former touring drummer. And you were you were in revenue cycle management. So how did you get to what you're doing now? With all of those different experiences?

Seth Turnoff 22:08

You're so man, there's a couple that are that are missing from there as well. Some some real good ones, too. We'll save that for another show. Oh, no, no, you

Claire Davis 22:17

Oh, no, no, you gotta tell us Don't leave.

Seth Turnoff 22:20

Litigation consultant slash courtroom cowboy. That was that was another notable medical job experience, as well. But yeah, we the show's not that long. So how I got to where I am right now, most recently from revenue cycle management was I was, I was allied with nrcm company medical billing, we had a lot of different practices and sole providers, as well as groups and MSOs. So I was part of the denial management team, it was my job to be on the phone all day long, and go to war with the payers, to get them to pay the claims for the patients that were seen by our doctors. Okay. So I learned very quickly that, that side of the game, and I don't know why I did this, because it doesn't need to close. It's a game. It's a game that is set up by the payers. You make three phone calls on the same claim to the same payer, you get three different reps, you're gonna get three different, like, choices of action that you need to take in order to get this claim paid. Like either it's, it's just, it's a mess. It's an absolute mess. And it's kind of a circuit and it's and it's a shame because, you know, richest country in the world and we have just so many critical issues. So I'm on hold with Florida Blue. Terrible company. Awesome. Hold Music. Is that that doo doo? You got to remix your right now. Oh, my gosh, I know. People were like, they were just like, oh, I can't dance. I hate that song. Right? Yeah, you're not alone.

Claire Davis 24:05

If your eyes started twitching, we totally understand it.

Seth Turnoff 24:07

PTSD will send a link at the end of the show. That help. So I'm on hold. And I listened to the song and I'm daydreaming about ways that we could move the needle for our dogs move the needle for our practices from a revenue perspective that didn't have anything to do with billing. We did a great job at billing, what else? How else could we generate more revenue for these doctors who are having to work harder and make less money than they've ever had to before? Just because of the system and reimbursements and the whole game that's being played. And so then I'm thinking like, okay, so marketing on the front end, like even before the revenue cycle starts like getting a patient to walk into your door is the actual beginning of the revenue cycle. But you can even reverse it. Before that, when someone gets hurt, or someone decides that they need care, that could be considered the beginning of the revenue cycle. So what's available at the private practice level that a doctor or a group could use, that can be effective, and also verifiable, that you can prove it in black and white with data, you can prove it, instead of like, well, your site traffic went up, you know, like, look like all these metrics and these needles that go into patients, how many patients came in the door. So I got together with my two partners. One is healthcare analytics and data guru, been doing this for 25 years healthcare analytics sort of thing. And the other one is a medical device. Veteran, I believe he got started way back in the day with a small little company called Medtronic. And so what we do is not brand new. We didn't invent this. I wish I could say we did. But it's used very widely in retail, in real estate in automotive. And it just seems creepy. Because it's in healthcare and people say, my information, the information that we use, it's, it's already out there, if you go online, it's it's out there. We're, you know, based due to HIPAA. We're not using any CPT codes. We're not doing anything with diagnosis, none of that is in our purview of the data that we use. So I mean, you you you said creepy and like, you know, it is, it is real creepy. But, you know, same way as like that ad for the shoes that follow you around. Here we are back to talking about to you that's like that that retargeting that you go to a site, and then it's like, you know, it's the same thing. That's what we do as well. It's just a different industry. It's just for healthcare. And we're sending the message to people that most likely need this type of help.

Claire Davis 27:00

Yeah, you know, you're using your power for good here. So it and the reality is, our data is out there. And in all forms, and like you said, it's being used for advertising all the time, just jump online, and you'll see ads that you know, sometimes we joke that our iPhones are listening, because we'll be tracked talking about an artist. So we want to go see, are we talking about a place we want to vacation? And then well, ah, there is an ad for it. Yeah. So tell me this, because for a large portion of the folks listening here today, they're in medical sales and probably carrying a bag or coaching a team that carries a bag. So is this some Is this a way? Or is there a way that these folks can share what you're doing with their private practices, because I think that, you know, gone are the days when you walk in you, you check samples, and then they trust you and order everything from you. Now doctors expect and as they should, that we are an extension of their service, because we are providing them things that they are going to use, and they expect a lot. And then they expect us to know what their goals are. So we can support them beyond just the knee and the you know, the implant the the the medication XYZ, the tests, the diagnostic tests. So is this something that a rep could use or connect a physician with for the physicians, you know, for bettering their practice?

Seth Turnoff 28:27

I 100% think, yes, this is something it's all about the tools in your toolbox. Right now. It's up to the rep to determine whether or not their client would be receptive to this or whether this is something they would need, or the last thing you want to do is take up their time, unnecessarily. So I guess that's, that's based on the reps. relationship with their clients. But look in terms of being able to, to provide value. All right? Do do things that make you feel good about the work that you're doing, like, be able to sleep at night, knowing that like you know that you're not putting people in danger, you're helping more than you're hurting, I think I think it is something that is valuable for the reps. It just depends on their relationship with with their client.

Claire Davis 29:25

Sure. You know, what I really love about the solution. I mean, you talk about the way that we used to do things, you know, as far as marketing our services and hoping that we can build this business up but not really knowing it by the data. I would imagine it also saves these folks who are making these decisions at these practices, a lot of time and money. And I know you and I know this so well as parents. That time is very precious. So do you find that a lot of times this is the feedback you get from people you work with, as they say My gosh, like I have some time back, or I have some mental space or some clarity going on What's it feel like when they work with you?

Seth Turnoff 30:07

So it feels like so I, a good friend of mine, who's in marketing. He said to me, I was going through some numbers with him for our flagship client, you know, sort of revenue totals and what we generated for them. And he said to me, I said, if they call you and ask you any question, other than, what are your dimensions, your size, dimensions, shoulders, chest like height, because we're building broad statues of you and your partners in our, in our lobby, they ask you any other questions don't answer. Because the numbers were like, really, really good. So instead of like getting the time back, sure, I think that that's something that's valuable. But it's revenue, it's being able to have a successful, profitable practice and being able to see, if you can't see everything you don't really know. And that's where there's some leakage. But if you can see everything, then you know, what things need attention in the business, what things you need to work on, and what you do really well and, and just get a full unclouded view of it. So I think it's just about revenue. And, you know, the, the C suite, or the marketing directors that we've worked with, they are quite pleased the marketing folks like we make them look really good, because they brought us in, and we're given them report that they can share and like, and they're just looking like the hero, and that's fine. For us. That's, that's great. We just want to find great partners that see what we're doing that get us the resources we need, when we need them. So we can do what we do. And work in partnership like that, you know, their success is our success.

Claire Davis 31:56

Yeah, well, you you touched on something so important there too, is there are very likely a lot of things they're getting right. And so with you, they can validate that too, because, you know, sometimes CMOs are really the unsung hero of how a practice functions long term. So I love that you're providing that for them. So let me ask you this. What do you see as the future for practices and how they'll grow? And maybe do it by the data? What do you see as the future for the industry.

Seth Turnoff 32:31

So I see, I see a practice that, you know, it's, I have this vision in my head, and it very much looks like the jet because it's very, very streamlined, very modern, and everything is like digital, and just, and everything just works. And it already knows it's intuitive. And the data is there and you don't, it doesn't, it doesn't feel like heavy lifting to use it. There's a lot of mechanics that go into a thriving practice, whether it's tech, or capital equipment, or business or the building or, you know, everything. And a lot of it is is efficient and effective. And some of its really clunky and difficult to use that from from the clinical side of things. I see it being like, where everything is streamlined. And it just works the way it's supposed to. And you talk about getting time back. You know, could you imagine if every everyone who worked at a practice or for for a position or surgeon if everything they touched, it just worked the way it was supposed to? I mean, I feel like that would change everybody's mood. And it No, it just give everybody a better shot at having a great day providing excellent care and service to their patients. And and having a thriving, successful practice.

Claire Davis 33:55

Oh, I love it.

Seth Turnoff 33:57

Am I am I am I too utopian?

Claire Davis 33:58

No, no, no,

Seth Turnoff 34:00

I think we're gonna see this in our lifetime. I hope so. Yeah. But, you know, we have a friend of mine mentioned the Jetsons and a buddy of mine, we video chat. And, and he mentioned that like, you know, this was like a big thing in the Jetsons. It was like, you know, we had this terminal and you could talk to someone and it was this hole or dip that we just take our pocket rectangle out of our out of our pocket and just then I'm right there just like you are right now. And so I take and it never happened. It wasn't a flash. It wasn't some big reveal. It's just kind of like, let into that. And before we know it, the changes are already implemented. They're already here. So it might be utopian, but I like to believe that we're gonna get there in our in our lifetimes. That'd be grabbed. Actually, scratch that clear. I want to be a part of it. I wouldn't be part of it. That's it. That's the answer. Yeah. Yeah.

Claire Davis 34:57

I I'd really like to see me meaningful change and healthcare in this way too. And I think, you know, with everything we're doing with everything you are doing, when you're in marketing long enough, you, you recognize that when you're speaking to everyone you're speaking to no one. And it really does make a difference when you're able to closely target who needs to hear your message. And that's what this is, like, you're so closely targeting the people who do need help and potentially need help. And it's going to help everybody thrive. So I think that it's really smart. And I think it'll be really nice, too. Because the the trend that I see a lot of physicians going and especially a lot of private practice physicians who are, you know, hell bent on keeping their private practice, and continuing on, well, just like anybody, they have certain passions about what they do over others. So when they feel like, okay, I kind of want to lean into this specialized area, your perfect solution for that, because then that doctor gets to work out of their zone of genius, the marketing team gets to focus on those specific patients that they can help the best, the fastest. And I think it would just be, like you said, incredibly streamlined. So I think we'll see it in, you know, if it's anything like the Jetsons, and I can imagine that robot made coming into my house and the robot were probably a lot a lot more likely to realize this in our lifetime than we give ourselves credit. Okay, so tell me this stuff. Because not only do I love what you're doing with work, but I think that you're a magnetic personality around here on LinkedIn. And for anybody again, if you're not following Seth yet, make it your first order of business today. He's fun, you do have the the deepest Well, of dad jokes I've ever seen in my life. So tell us a little bit about what you're doing when you're not, you know, working.

Seth Turnoff 37:00

Um, well. I am a father to a toddler, when I'm not working. I'm usually you know, hanging out with Salomon. I would say like, spend quality time with my friends. But like, I haven't seen my friends in a while. And I think it's just a function of having a business. And a family that I love, and I want to spend time with. I do greatly enjoy music. But I don't listen to it the same way that I used to. Just like in the background, it's not active listening, it's more passive listening. I do have a lot of records that just haven't haven't taken a spin lately, but that's okay. They're not going anywhere. You hear that they're not going anywhere.

Claire Davis 37:44

I just heard of a new app yesterday. And it's a record app that keeps the Pops from the records. I mean, you really can't, even though the sounds remastered and you can buy everything on Apple Music now, you just can't get better than listening to like the Eagles with the record scratch and the Pops. And like the warm tone, it's okay, it creates a moment.

Seth Turnoff 38:10

It's another it's a textural thing. It's an audible texture, that it just it, it's just like the rug will like really, like fill out the room. Like it's the same thing. It's just another texture, another it's tough to put in words. And I I've never had to do that. So thank you for this challenge. Now I want to go with the music.

Claire Davis 38:32

Sorry to put you on the spot Hey,

Seth Turnoff 38:35

Hey, I'm happy to be here.

Claire Davis 38:36

You know, we just we really, I really admire what you're doing in the health space, you know how much I care about this space personally and professionally. And so thanks for what you're doing. And so tell everybody before we go, if they want to connect with you, if they want to find more out about what you're doing if they want to learn a little bit more about custom medical marketing, how do they get in touch with you?

Seth Turnoff 38:59

LinkedIn is probably the best way to do it. Step turn off it's true my last name is turned off that will save that story for a for another time to follow me on LinkedIn like or don't I'm not going to tell you what to do. I'm not going to give you my tips on how to be a better person before 2am like that, that's not what I do. I'm just the guy with a family and the job that I care about and I really Claire your words mean so much to me. And I thank you on behalf of the people that follow you because I think there's no one else to really provide the level of value that you do and you're so accessible it's like one thing to have a coach you know talk to you but you are more like an associate like you're you're like right there shoulder to shoulder with us and and just the way that you do that. It means a lot to a lot of people so thank you for me.

Claire Davis 39:53

Oh my gosh, they broke up all thank you for your kind words. I don't deserve them but I appreciate you so much. So much. Thank you, everyone for joining us today. If you want to connect with Seth, find him right here on LinkedIn, go connect, go send him a DM, find out what he's all about. And let us know if you have any questions after the show. What did you take away? A couple of my favorites were that we're expanding the expertise of the physicians on who's coming in the door. We're improving the experience for their practice. We're maintaining and helping physicians avoid the overspend and so many more things. So set. Thank you for all the gems you've dropped today. I'm so glad to have you here and as long as you promise to come back again, that'll be goodbye for now. I promise. Thank you. Thanks, everybody. Have a great day.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

How To Be Relevant In An Interview

AI-Generated Transcript below. There may be errors.

Claire Davis 0:00

Hey everybody. Welcome back to another episode of today's medical sales leader and I am so thrilled to bring you my guest today. His name is Josh Braun. It's somebody who I actually, gosh, Josh, I met you through right here on LinkedIn where this is gonna be airing today. And I have to say that you're the first person that I know personally, who has gone toe to toe in hostage negotiation with Chris Voss. So tell me how that felt.

Josh Braun 0:48

I know it's interesting, I prep for that exercise. For those that are not aware he does this exercise called 60 seconds or should be dies. And the simulation is you have to say things to be able to extend the clock. And if you don't, the clock sort of ticks down and if it gets to zero, you end up killing the hostages. And I knew this exercise, and I prep for this exercise. But when we actually got on the podcast, and we did it live, I just came unglued. I think I got about five seconds in before my heart was beating at like 220 beats per minute. And I tapped out and it's a good reminder that you can know something but not be able to do it until you get a lot of reps in. So it was a really good reminder that like I kind of knew it, but when I was under the gun, I just couldn't I fell apart and he luckily said okay, okay, we're gonna we're gonna because he saw I was about to have a heart attack.

Claire Davis 1:41

And true Chris Voss fashion, by the way. And for those of you who who haven't met Josh or or Chris Voss yet either Chris Voss is a master hostage negotiator. And I actually thought you did rather well, when you had to be on the spot in front of the master himself. So give yourself a pat on the back.

Josh Braun 1:59

Thank you. Thank you.

Claire Davis 2:00

That was high stakes right there. Yeah, yeah. But super cool. You know, I, I really liked actually how, if you if you go back to that episode, I binged it twice, because it really is that good. You have such a great interview style. But he mentioned immediately, your heart is probably about to beat out of your chest. And I just thought, Oh, my God, thank you. Everybody's feeling the same thing. My heart is pounding. And I'm not even there. So I thought that you guys handled it handled it really, really well. But I'm so glad you're with me today. Thank you so much for joining me. You know, for those who are listening, mostly medical sales professionals here today, Josh is one of my favorites because he approaches sales in a different way. I think that if you've been in the industry long enough, and frankly, if you've been in sales long enough, you've heard the Challenger selling, you've heard the consultative selling, and all different iterations of how we should implement best practices for selling. But after a while, and if you're still in the game, I think that you know, people have come around to the realization that sales really isn't a one size fits all. And it's not about pushing the the customer into making a decision anymore. So I'm hoping we can kind of start a little bit with your journey going from I'm in sales, to mastering and figuring out that what has worked forever, or seemingly worked forever. doesn't work anymore, and how you ended up now becoming the amazing sales trainer that you are, can you kind of walk us through your journey first?

Josh Braun 3:32

Yes, so 2009 and I am a salesperson for jelly vision, which was a small boutique agency out of Chicago. And after two or three months of cold emailing and cold calling, I land a meeting with one of our dream accounts, which was Verizon. And that meeting went so well that Rick the head of Digital Strategy invited the team to Basking Ridge, New Jersey to pitch the execs. So the following week, we get on a plane fly out to Basking Ridge, we pitch and during the pitch, all executives are sort of nodding their head. It couldn't be going any better. After the presentation is over, Rick pulls me aside and goes you guys not get out of the park. On the plane ride home. I'm high fiving. My boss. I'm high fiving, the creative director, and I'm thinking about all the cool things I'm gonna buy with my commission check a couple days later, I follow up with Rick for next steps. He doesn't respond. I call him he doesn't answer and leave a voicemail message. She doesn't get back to me. follow up, follow up, follow up. Nothing, nothing, nothing. I never hear from Rick again. I never know why that sale didn't close. until about five years later, when I get this alert on LinkedIn that he had switched jobs. And switch companies got a fancy title. So I sent them off a congrats. We had an exchange and that led to a phone call. And during the phone call five years later, I said Hey, Rick, what happened to that deal? Because we just did it in house real casually. And then I asked him the million dollar question. Why didn't you tell me? And I'll never forget what he said. He said I was afraid of you. And I said I'm afraid of me. I'm like an old Jewish guy from Boca Raton. Oops, lightweights, like look, I'm not very intimidating, because I was afraid you were gonna try to talk me into the gun with you. You're pretty persuasive and pushy back then. And I thought it would just make more sense to sort of disappear. And that's when it hit me that I had spent my entire sales career reading books on how to persuade people how to talk them into things, but it was having just the opposite effect on Rick and God knows how many other people. So there's a time for persuasion, but it's not the first step. The first step is being able to create an environment where prospects feel comfortable having a conversation with you, so you can get some more truth. Because without truth, you can't have a transaction without truth or following up. Without truth. You're hoping deals close. So that would set me on this journey of how do I create an environment where prospects don't feel like they're being pushed? Because that's what salespeople bring? It's the natural dynamic salespeople are trained to close. And yet, when prospects smell the commission rep, they sort of pull away. So that's, that's what sent me on a trajectory in 2009, from persuading to get into more truth.

Claire Davis 5:59

Yeah. And I love that you, you know for for all of you who just heard that phrase he threw out there to commission breath. Can you talk a little bit about what that is? Because I think that, you know, the phrase in itself, we all kind of get an idea. But does everybody in sales have commission breath? And what does that mean to you?

Josh Braun 6:16

Yeah. So I don't know. You probably be in the situation, Claire, where you're like in the mall, and you're going somewhere, and one of those kiosk people locks eyes with you and says, Can I ask you a question? And if you're like most people, you're like, I'm good at your pretend to getting a phone call. Why is that? Why do you why do most people do that? Clint, why do you think most people just like say, I'm good? Or they don't like engage? Why do you think that is?

Claire Davis 6:41

I think it's a lot like the person who, you know, it's it's a lot like Rick and your example. They don't want to be strong armed. Right? I mean, it's not a it's a push. And I don't think we really want to be pushed at the end of the day. Would you agree?

Josh Braun 6:55

You kind of know what's coming. So all salespeople are biased. Right? They all have a vested interest in getting something and prospects know that they've had experiences with mall kiosk people before. So there's this rap that has this reputation salespeople have, because they have a vested interest in getting the sale, that they don't put the prospects best interest first, they put their best interest first. And this starts way, way, way before you're walking around in malls. I mean, I remember when I was five years old. This is when this started. I mean, I love to read comic books. And in the comic books, there were these ads for these things called Sea Monkeys. And yeah, look like six foot tall things that you could train and I was going to train one to beat up my brother who was a year younger, I saved up my money. My mom, let me order it. I couldn't wait for this thing to get there. As soon as it came, I put the water in it. And I was like, what it was like this big. And it died in like two weeks and you couldn't train it to do anything. It was the first time I was duped by a sales sales message. But this happens all the time. So salespeople make these promises, I'm going to 10x this, I'm going to 20 and prospects I've grown skeptical because they've been duped and manipulated before. So we are really starting at a big disadvantage when we approach something just because of the seller buyer dynamic. Claire Davis 8:06 Yes. And you know, I think, well, first of all, that's so young to be so keenly observing of Oh, my God, I just got taken. Five, that's pretty observant. That's how it feels right at any age. And, you know, there are a lot of best practices out there. Right. There are a lot of things that, you know, back in challenger, selling days, you know, every no is a step to a yes, right, push, push, push, push, push, use their their first name a million times as their favorite word in the universe. And I think it obviously a lot of this is coming straight from your interview, because I just listened to it again with Chris Voss. But, you know, I think that we've got to give people credit to, there seems to be this sort of veil between like the sales team and the prospect as if the prospect doesn't realize they're being sold. But of course they do. Of course they do. And so I really like your analogy there. So we're Where do people start to begin to turn the ship here, because, you know, there's a lot on the line, they've got to be in sales, they've got to exceed in sales so that they can put food on the table for their families. So how do they start getting with the idea of selling without being pushy, without the agenda of trying to trick someone into buying from them? How do they switch it?

Josh Braun 9:27

Yes, so this is the most important part of the whole process. And I'm gonna kind of walk you through why it starts actually with your intent. So if your intent is, I think it's my job to talk everybody into my medication or my medical device, everyone needs it. If my goal is the sale or the meeting, if that's my intent going in. Everyone needs my grass fed beef delivered to their door because it's amazing grass fed beef, and my job is to talk everyone into it if that's your intent, which is right because a lot of salespeople are quoted and they have put food on the table. So if that's your intent, what happens is when you approach people, you behave in ways that are consistent with that intent. Because your thoughts, this is just neuroscience, what you think affects what you say. So if my intent is I got a book people, no matter what, what ends up happening is when someone says, I don't eat meat, I'm a vegan, I've been a vegetarian for 30 years, you think that's an objection that you have to overcome? Well, you just haven't tried our meat yet. This happens all the time. I mean, I just, I just did this exercise at a sales conference and said, How would you overcome this objection, you sell meat to a door. And the prospect says, I'm a vegan, I've been a vegan for 30 years, I don't believe in killing animals. And every salesperson tried to think how to overcome that. Because their intent is I gotta get the sale, versus maybe that person is not a fit. For the first shift here is to let go of assumptions and expectations. Of course, you have a hypothesis of how you could potentially help. But you don't know until you actually have a conversation with people, there could be any number of reasons why your thing is not a fit. Maybe the doctor is retiring next week, maybe what they have is getting the job done, there could be any number of reasons. Maybe this person is vegan, you know, for any any number of reasons. So this shift of letting go of assumptions and detaching from the outcome, and letting prospects persuade themselves, which we'll get into a little bit. Rather than explaining and persuading. And talking at people which we established doesn't work. Because you're the mall kiosk person, what we want to do is we want to shift to asking someone a question that's going to get them to scratch their head and think a little differently, so that they're leaning forward, so that we can understand their motivations versus us giving them ours. And it turns out that people change for their reasons, not our reasons. And yet salespeople like to give our reasons, our value proposition. I'll give you just a quick example of this. Yeah, imagine you get an inbound lead. And there's two sales reps. And they work for two apartment complexes. And the prospect calls the first apartment complex looking to rent an apartment and they say to the salesperson, do you have a pool? And the salesperson says with unbridled enthusiasm. Not only do we have a pool, it's a 25 meter lap paint lap playing pool. It's got Remar sighting. It's got a beautiful marble around the thing. It's got umbrellas and lounge chairs. It's the best pool in Boca Raton. And the prospect says, Oh, that's too bad. I have a two year old, I don't want them anywhere near a pool. They call the other salesperson at another complex who's not attached to the outcome, asked the same question because your apartment have a pool. And this salesperson in a calm way says this sounds like a pool is very important to you. And the prospect says, well actually, it's not I have a two year old kid that want them near water. And the salesperson says I have a two year old too, which is why I live here. The pool has a fence around it that can only be accessed with a fob. When it's not in use. It's covered. And there's a lifeguard on duty 24/7 When it's opened, if you'd like to share with you, the prospect says I'll be right there. Right. So this idea of I need to understand what the prospects value versus what I value. And so getting to the motivation, we can talk through different examples of how to do this get into the prospects motivation, rather than you telling them what your motivation is, I'd have the best drug, this medical device is the greatest thing since sliced bread, of course, you're going to say that you have a vested interest.

Claire Davis 13:17

Right? Right. It's brilliant, because truly unless we go into figuring out what their needs are, right, what they even care about, how can we ever be relevant? I work a lot with folks who are looking to get their next step in their career in medical sales, too. And I find that there's a real parallel as well with when they're going into the interview, another negotiation situation, right high stakes negotiation situation, you have to prove yourself as the right candidate for the right fit role, right? It's both have to fit. And so often, you know, we can Google and we can find what are the top 20 interview questions for medical sales. And you can get them and you can practice them and you can get them down pat. But then if we go into that interview, and we share all that information, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It very rarely has the effect of uncovering what their problem is that they're dealing with, they might not need to know at all what your 90 day plan is, they might need to know what you know how long you're going to stay with the company because people keep leaving. So they don't want a quick hit. They want a long term. So I really like what you're sharing.

Josh Braun 14:28

I mean, one of the things I would do in that scenario, just brainstorming here, let's say you're applying for a medical device, jobs salesperson job, and they've screened a bunch of resumes and they've selected you for an interview. One of the things that I might say in an interview is this. Hey, Claire, you've gotten a lot of resumes for this position. And somehow you thought mine was interesting enough to bring me in here. What is it about my resume or cover letter that you thought looked interesting enough to want to talk to me today? So now I'm gonna understand what their motivation might be and looking at your resume? Well, I like this, I'd like that. And now we're hearing their motivation. I do this with inbound calls all the time. Whenever I get an inbound lead, I say, Hey, before I tell you about my training program, you've probably seen me on LinkedIn. Maybe you've watched some of my videos on YouTube, perhaps you've listened to a couple of episodes on the podcast? What is it that you think I can help you do better. And then the prospect tells me my value proposition which is much more valuable than me telling them this, they might not like cold calling, or cold emailing, they might want something completely different. Maybe they want to work on listening, or whatever the thing is, I just want to listen to someone says, Why should I choose you? And I might say, the traditional approach is when we say how great I am. That's me talking again. And when you're talking, and you're explaining as Chris Voss said, You're losing, because of course, you're gonna say you're the best. So another approach is, I don't know, you could hire John Barrows. You can hire a, b and c, what is it that would inspire you to want to hire a former kindergarten teacher? And then they tell you the reasons why they might want to bring you in. It's the same thing. If you're approaching a doctor, we wouldn't want to start pitching. We want to start by acknowledging who they are. Now, you might say, Hey, Dr. Jones, as someone who's been in this medical profession for 25 years, I can tell you're really passionate about X y & z What is it, you want to get them sort of leaning in a little bit to that? I know you didn't have to meet with me today. You could have, you know, opted out of this thing. What is it that you saw that prompted you to want to chat with us for a couple minutes? Right. And then from there, you might say, Hey, I'm sure you've thought of it curious to know, if someone was like doing this doing this for 25 years? What are your thoughts on an x, which is maybe the drug or device that you're selling? Because chances are if this person has been doing the job for 20 years, they know about what you're selling already? Right? Right. So you got to kind of bring out that this is about bringing out someone's motivation. You're kind of surfacing versus persuading.

Claire Davis 16:59

Is it also an element of trust building? Because you're sharing with the person you're speaking with your prospect that you're giving them credit that they know more than people normally give them credit for?

Josh Braun 17:13

Absolutely, I mean, that's, that's really ego stroking right? We never want to ever tell anyone the wrong. I'll give you an example of someone came to me, it was a window salesperson knocked on my door and said, Josh, I noticed that the garage window, you have a crack in it, why haven't you gotten that fixed? That's gonna make me defensive, because you're basically saying, You're a moron. For not getting it fixed. You're gonna tell me I'm doing my house chores wrong. And salespeople do this all the time, whether they realize it or not, they're telling people are doing their job wrong. Right. So a better approach is, Hey, Josh, I noticed that you have a small crack in your garage window. Is that something you're looking to get fixed anytime soon? See the difference there? It's it's subtle. But there's a difference there. I'm highlighting a problem. But I'm not assuming that the homeowner doesn't know about it. Perhaps there's a number of reasons why they don't want to get it fixed. Maybe they're short on money. Maybe they're moving? Maybe they've already got a vendor for who knows? You never want to tell a prescriber persuade? Yeah, that's the persuasion that backfires. The, the questions are key, asking questions that surface problems that illuminate problems are a superpower. Like, give me an example of what I mean by that. Well, imagine for a second that you are sending a bunch of cold emails out as an organization. What the salesperson knows that the prospect might not know is that half of those emails end up in spam. So what the salesperson could do, instead of pitching when a prospect picks up and says, Hey, John, hey, Claire out, we know that about 51% of cold emails landing spam. If you don't mind me asking, how are you ensuring that the cold emails your SDR send, don't land in spam today? And then just be quiet? What you're gonna hear us? What do you mean? Well, I don't know what I think we're doing next frenzy. Or they might say, you know, we're not doing outbound. We're not sending any emails to which case conversations over. Right. So you're asking these questions to make people think I'm not sure to bring up their motivation again, rather than you telling them your motivation.

Claire Davis 19:15

Yeah. Okay. So they start to explain a little bit about kind of what they're looking for. And just thinking, Hmm, okay, he's on the same side of the table with me actually. Right. He's, he's in he's got a vested interest in what I have an interest in. I mean, I feel like that's really powerful. And it is unlike what traditional selling has taught us for the last 20 years. So is this new? Is this just a better use of psychology? Where does this all come from?

Josh Braun 19:45

I don't know if it's new. I think the first thing to keep in mind though, if you're going outbound, if you're if you're approaching people, is that you have to have a point of view. You have to know something that the prospect doesn't know you have to have a hypothesis they may not agree with you, they may know about it, but you actually have to have a perspective. From I'll give you another kind of quick story on that just so you can bring us in. I mean, several years ago, I'm in the mall with my wife, I needed nothing. She was shopping, we were gonna grab true food after the shopping excursion to kill some time, I just walked into a fit to run store and not needing anything. If the store associates said, Hey, what brings you in today? I would have said nothing. If she said, Can I help you out? I said, I'm good. If you said we got these brand new books, and they got these great salts. Notice I'm good, I'm good. I'm good. But she didn't do any of this. Then she looked down at my sneakers. She said, Are you a runner? I said, Yes. She goes, what distance are going to finish my first marathon? And she said, Have you ever had a gait analysis? And I said, What the heck is that next minute, I'm on a treadmill in the store. This is the frame and she zooms into my ankles. And she goes, You notice how your ankles are overpronate. And when you run? And they go, yes. So watch. Here's the problem is if you run into sneakers that are not made for pronated feet, you can get plantar fasciitis and get sidelined. If you'd like I could take a look at your sneakers to see if they're made for pronated feet. And sure enough, six minutes later, I'm spending $180 on new sneakers and insoles. The point being that she knew sounds she had a hypothesis. So if you're going and you're approaching someone, you have to you have to have a hypothesis, a perspective on what it is that's broken about the current way, because if nothing's broken, if they're making progress, there's no reason to switch because switching is really risky. Mm hmm. Claire Davis 21:21 I think that, first of all, I hope your wife was watching when you had to be on the treadmill, treadmill in public. And that's, that's so fun. So I think a lot of times, what I remember back when I was in sales, and of course the folks that I work with, you're listening now, you know, we go in, and we're told no all day long. I mean, it's just part of developing the thick skin. And if you've been doing it long enough, you just you become immune, and you keep moving. But I see that that's something that you uniquely focus on. And it's not overcoming those objections. So if that woman said, you know, if she she was probably prepared for you to say like, no thanks. You know, I'm good. Like, I don't need any more shoes or what have you. And so she didn't pitch you something that you could easily object to she was just getting curious. Right?

Josh Braun 22:15

So curiosity is a key thing, right? So the talk track that she had didn't lend itself to I'm not interested. See the talk track that would have lended itself to analysis, it is the traditional sales pitch. The reason that I stopped you in the store today is that we have a breakthrough in Sneak as soon as the prospect here's the reason for my there switch is gonna go on that damn being sold. What I'm doing is I'm asking a question, that's gonna get the prospect to think, Hey, have you ever had a gait analysis? I can't really say, I have a vendor for that. It doesn't really make sense. I can't really say, can you send me an email? I can't really say, can you send us information? It doesn't really make sense. So a lot of these objections are created by the rap at the beginning, and how well, yeah, you're kind of losing people out a little because you're going in, and you're sort of in that mall kiosk persuasion about?

Claire Davis 23:03

Yeah, you know, speaking of, can you do you feel like these, this style of curiosity and not going in not giving them something to object to right away? Do you think that it works just as well, virtually as it does in person? That's one thing that God, God, God. So that's one thing, that's really, you know, of course, everybody has had to jump on Zoom and learn how to, you know, communicate and get by in the last three years. However, specifically, in medical sales, a lot of hospitals and offices have closed their doors, many, just many as a as a rule for safety, which, you know, of course, we understand, but, you know, it's caused a huge shift in how they sell. And while a lot of the other industries that have sales in them, which is almost every industry, have been able to kind of get back to more in person meetings. Still, there's a lot of medical sales folks and healthcare organizations that aren't allowing the in person interaction unless, for example, you're a med tech rep, or you're a device rep and you're in the O R, and they they need you to walk you through it. So do you feel like this translates to a virtual setting too?

Unknown Speaker 24:13

Here's my take on this. Let go of things you don't have any control over.

Josh Braun 24:20

So I don't have I just got done with a training. I did take a flight from Atlanta to Fort Lauderdale, and the flight was delayed twice and there was a guy losing his marbles over this. He was getting upset as if the flight is doing to him. Right? Because when you focus on things you don't control, it's a recipe for being angry and upset all the time. So if I don't control if I meet someone virtually, or in person, I'm going to tune that out. In fact, in my life, I always look at things in the two buckets. Do I control it or not? If I don't I tune it out completely. I don't control pace meetings or virtual. So sure I can start to think about is it better as I don't know. It doesn't matter. It is it just is Is flights being delayed just are. Right, so I'm gonna have the intent of I have a hypothesis, I'm gonna have a conversation with this person, some people will be comfortable opening up sharing some more and continuing the conversation, some won't. I have a surfers mind, surfers minds, they don't get set up upset when they lay down on a wave. They just sort of paddle out. And they wait patiently and they ride the next wave. And there's always new waves coming. It's only when you get fixated on this person that's on the Zoom thinking that they're the only wave where you start to go down the rabbit hole. So whenever I talk to prospects, I'm like, Okay, here's a wave that came to me, right, I prospect to them. And it's gonna either be a short ride or a long ride. And it's okay either way, good and bad waves are all part of the same experience to a surfer. So I kind of treat all this the same way. It just kind of tuning out what you don't control is a profound idea. Because you don't have to think about it. Like I don't control it. It is what it is. It just is.

Claire Davis 26:00

Yes. Okay. So speaking of things we can't control my earbuds fell out to do. So while I recalibrate here, okay, so let's dive into that a little bit. Because it takes so much of the pressure off, and it gives such a greater perspective. And I love your thoughts on this. So speaking of your hat that says, detach, what else? What other ways can we detach and practice the art of detachment? Like having a surfers mind? You know, and not hinging everything on this one sale? What what do you say to, to those who maybe this is a new concept, the best way that I know to go down this path is to practice mindfulness.

Josh Braun 26:39

So I know that's a big buzzword. But you can't get better at anything that you haven't been taught, or that you haven't practiced. And so there's an app that I've been using for a long time called waking up by Sam Harris, it's five minutes a day, okay. And I treat it like brushing my teeth. Just because you've been taught something doesn't mean you shouldn't be practicing. I mean, Buddhist monks have been practicing meditation for 20 years, but they do it every day. Serena Williams knows how to hit a forehand, but she practices every day. So this is a practice. And what you learn in mindfulness pretty quickly is that most of the time, you're unaware of your thoughts. Thoughts are just coming into your head all the time, your dog, your kids, where you have to be, you're not even thinking about your thoughts. They're just coming in all the time. And the thoughts drive how you feel. And if you're unaware of your thoughts, you're going to feel a certain way all the time, usually not going to, you might not even know why. What mindfulness teacher teaches you as you are, start to be aware of your thoughts. simple act of observing how you're feeling is a profound skill. When you can actually just observe your thoughts, it just turns the volume down. And now you have a choice. You can say, hmm, I want to do this, or you know what, I don't want to do that I want to do this, I want to feel this way or that way. But if you're unaware of your thoughts, you're sort of a slave to your thoughts. Because your thoughts again, getting back to the beginning, affect how you feel. So mindfulness, and specifically the Sam Harris app, waking up, and I'm not affiliated with him at all, is a really good way to sort of get into this mindset of detachment.

Claire Davis 28:16

Oh, wow. Okay. So I mean, this isn't just for selling, right? This is really how we can operate. In any phase of our life. One of the things I really enjoy about the content that you put out on LinkedIn, if anybody's not following Josh, please do yourself a favor and do it right now. Finish the podcast first, and then the podcast. But one thing I really like is that you bring your these concepts that you're sharing with teams and sales people all over the world, to your everyday life. And a lot of times you do it with your wife in tow, right, you'll have a great post. And one recently was you too, we're having a probably maybe a stage argument and talking through two very common ways that people end up butting heads in a conversation. But by using some of the methods that you're teaching all of us like detachment, and like you're sharing now, it was moving the conversation forward so that she and you felt understood, and not judged. So can you talk a little bit about that? Because I love this idea of practicing this mindfulness and this art of detachment, but then it should once we get good at things like this, it should influence the rest of our lives. So can you tell us more about that?

Josh Braun 29:36

Yeah, I think it starts with being aware of your thoughts. So when you're not aware of your thoughts, someone will say something to you. And you'll react. So my wife will say, hey, I want to eat. She'll say I'm so sick of Japanese food. And I'll say why are you sick of Japanese food? And that's going to create some defensiveness, right? That's an immediate reaction. I'm just gonna say Whatever matter where my thoughts if I'm aware of my thoughts, and my wife says, I'm so sick of Japanese food. By being aware of my thoughts, I can slow down for a second. And I can think about how I want to respond in that gap. It's the gap. That's everything. And in that gap, I can say something like, this. Sounds like you're in the mood for something else. See how different that is? Unless you might say, I'd like to have some Mexican food. And it sounds good, right? So if you're not aware of your thoughts, you react. A good friend of mine has a seven year old kid. He's our car buff guy loves cars. And his kid would have this habit of getting in a car eating Doritos. And it would make him bonkers. Because he didn't want his car messed up. He didn't like the fact this kid was eating Doritos. He has stuff on his hands and all this stuff that just goes everywhere, right? But he's now gone through mindfulness training. It's kind of on the same path time that we started about the same time. We're by no means experts at this. But in that moment, now he's got in the car yesterday, he was telling me this open the bag of Doritos. Actually, it was Cheetos worse. Okay. Yeah. And because he's now aware of his thoughts. He's like, I'm about to get mad at my kid for eating Cheetos in the car. What else could I do? And in that gap, he decided to do nothing. He thought to himself, there's only 15 Cheetos in the bag. I could make this a big deal and ruin the entire day because we're going to the zoo. Or I could just let my kid be for six minutes. And eat the Cheetos? Why do I have to impose my Cheeto habits on my kid? Who am I to determine what is and what isn't? Should be eaten in the car. I don't want my my kid my product? Or can I keep my kid. And so we did that moment as he let his kid eat the Cheetos. And sure enough, in five minutes, she knows we're done. It gave a kid a towel and everything was fine. If he didn't have this scale, he says, I told you 1000 times to stop eating Cheetos in the car, he rips the Cheetos away puts in the time and the whole day is ruined. Oh my gosh. Well, this starts with the starts with again, being aware of your thoughts, which is what mindfulness really starts to teach you. But you have to practice it every day. You have to rewire 50 years of reactionary, you have two kids, you could probably relate to this you have two kids like probably really well when you're talking about your brother to your part.

Claire Davis 32:21

So my kids are two years apart. And you know, they very much want to be each other to an extent. If one is playing with Legos, the other and wants to play with Legos. If one wants to, you know, ride in the front seat, the other one wants to ride the middle seat and the other one wants to ride on the way back. And now we've placed the car seats further from each other. So it's a lot less car fighting. But I mean, there have definitely been those moments like today, Mommy has to do a podcast recording. But I'll have my youngest my five year old come in and come in and come in. He wants to he Mommy, I need you mommy, I need you. Hey, can you can you color can you color can you color? And I'm like No, not right now. Not right now. And the other day I was recording a podcast. And luckily it was a fellow parent. And I said, you know, what? Do you have five minutes, I just I just want to go, I just want to go check in with him for a minute. Because in my mind, I'm thinking, if I don't get this podcast done, I won't have 45 minutes to work with this person who's given me their their graciously given me their time. And you know, they just won't keep quiet. Right? So this person was so very generous. I walked over for five minutes, he just wanted to show me a pirate ship that he drew for his brother. Now first of all, I had to stop myself from crying. Because it was so sweet. And it was such a reminder of what's really important. And I sat there I colored with him for about four minutes. And I said buddy is do is it okay, if mommy goes back to work? And he says, Yep, that's it. I'm good mom. And I was like, perfect. I came back in, I joined my guest again, it was no big deal to him, and we moved on. Whereas I think before I wouldn't have, I wouldn't have. And I'm no perfectionist for mindfulness by a longshot. But I have to say that, you know, from being on LinkedIn from from learning from other people like you from doing the work that it takes to build your business around your family. Some of those things you you either have to learn or you sink, right and it's not always perfect, but when I when I had a chance to use that principle the other day, it really panned out, and I'm so glad I took the time.

Josh Braun 34:38

What did that feel like when you broke out of that and you actually had that interaction with your with your child, so much peace, like peace?

Claire Davis 34:44

Because otherwise parenting and running a business at the same time can feel so incredibly frazzled. You know, at times, you're just trying to do everything at once and And I just felt like, there was a little bit of peace between he and I, we like, reestablish that connection. And then everybody got what they needed in that moment. And then we just moved on, it probably saved a mountain of tears and frustration later in, you know, 90 seconds, 120 seconds.

Josh Braun 35:19

So what happened during that moment, because you're right, most of the time, your negative story that you tell yourself in head, like, Oh, my God, I'm not gonna have 45 minutes, this isn't gonna work out. And you're so right. Like, nobody cares. Nobody's listening to our podcast, we're not like that important. What happened in that moment that causes you to have what I call that gap? Right? You sort of caught yourself saying, Hey, I'm telling myself this story. What else might be happening here? What other options do I have? Then? Sure, you could have chosen to ignore your kid, but use, you have a choice? What was different about that moment, that allowed you to have the gap and ultimately say, You know what, I'm gonna take a timeout here. And I'm going to choose this door instead of this door.

Claire Davis 35:55

Well, part of it was I was interviewing a mindset coach. I'm not about to lose it in front of this gentleman. You know, and, and I think that, you know, recently, we've gone through some tough events, as a family, we've lost it a dear fixture of our family a couple weeks ago. And it did trigger for us the reminder of what's really important, you know, we came back to real life after a funeral with a completely renewed perspective on how we should be giving our kids more time, and how we should be interacting with each other and focusing on what's really important, you know, and I think to a degree, as a parent, you have those moments. And as a business owner, you have those moments of okay, like here, here's the balance, I'm seeing the balance what I want to shoot for. And I don't know in that moment, it just after he asked me the fourth and the fifth, and the sixth time, it was like, almost like somebody poked me and said, wake up, don't you remember that lesson that you learned just a few weeks ago?

Josh Braun 37:00

And so there's, there's a famous psychologist, I think, his name's Gartner or something, he calls these bids for attention. These are these moments where a kid walks up to you and says, Mommy, I want to show you something. Yeah, right. And this is a bit for attention. They want a little of your attention. And at first, you might think those moments don't really add up like later. But those, those moments add up a lot. And what they teach the kid is like, does not love me? Does she want to pay attention to me. So I really, you know, when someone bids for your attention, especially if it's your kid, and even if it's the middle of a podcast about the story, like, hey, my kid wants me to take a look at something for a second, I'm gonna take a look at it. Or you're on a cell phone. And your kid says, look a butterfly, rather than like, making the call as long because I couldn't hold on a second. It wants to me a butterfly, the person the other in the phone doesn't doesn't care. But your kid matters a lot to them. But you have this choice. What is mindfulness stuff, which is why I love this story is that you're giving yourself a choice, you can then choose to say you know what this is? I can't do that. In this case. Without this muscle, you have no choice. Yeah, so I love this story. And that you sort of like, Hey, I have this choice. And I'm gonna choose this this time. Yeah, I think it's a it's a great story in our minds do this stuff all the time, when we think the worst, the worst is going to happen. And it's never the worst I had this happened last week. I'm doing this training for a company. It's a four part training I did the first part a couple of weeks ago. And it was a little hard on one of the STRS. I reached out to the person that I work with him saying let's schedule part two, I don't hear back. And I'm like, Oh my God, it was probably so hard. They want to cancel the contract. They're gonna sue me procurements gonna call me. It was none of those things. She was just out of town. Yeah, when you have this mindfulness stuff, you can eventually catch yourself, which took me a couple hours, like, whoa, what am I doing here? Who's making me think that? What else might be true? And the simple act of just observing it sort of calms you down a little bit, which is why I love that story. You had that gap? Where you got to say, hey, I want to I want to do this. Yeah.

Claire Davis 38:56

You know, what, what is up with that too? Like, why do we have this knee jerk reaction? It's almost like a, it's almost like a desperation. Like, for example, I see this a lot with my clients when they're going into an interview, you know, or they're going into to see a new account new physician for the first time. And they're, you know, they're stealing themselves because they're like, they're theirs. They're so intense. They're so nervous, you know, they're so ready for that person to say no, why is that? Do you think it's like a fight or flight?

Josh Braun 39:29

No, I think it's what we talked about earlier. Most people are unaware of their thoughts. They're unaware that they're, the thoughts that they're having in your thoughts affect how you feel. Right? So if you are waking up in the morning, and you are feeling anxious or cranky or sad, that is coming from thoughts. So the first step of this is again to sort of be aware that you're actually even having these thoughts then you switch into this I'm aware mode versus unaware mode. And in that moment of being aware, it changes everything. Because then when you observe your thoughts, you realize that they just disappear pretty quickly. And some other thought comes in like a guitar or lunch or a doughnut. Like if you had a speaker or a megaphone on your thoughts would think you're crazy. There's so many coming and going all the time. And you don't control them. Yeah, well, it's coming and going all the time, you don't control them. And when you are just a slave to them, you're on this autopilot, downward spiral. But when you can observe them what you realize that really short shelf life, all of a sudden, you're thinking about something else completely, literally. So I mean, 10 minute meditations, you realize thoughts are coming and going, like waves all the time. And that just turns the volume down? Because all you have is this really this interaction that we're having right now is all there really is right now?

Claire Davis 40:49

Right? Right. Give it 100%.

Josh Braun 40:53

Or just be be what it is be in the moment for what it is. Right. So that's what this this, this training really starts to build that muscle a little bit.

Claire Davis 41:03

Oh, my gosh, I love it. There's so you have so many great lessons for salespeople. You know, it's interesting, I know when I asked you to come on, and thank you so much, again, for joining me. You know, I told you, hey, this is going to be as a podcast for medical sales people, not all, not necessarily all salespeople, SAS salespeople, medical sales people. And I said, Josh, do you think this is something relevant for the healthcare space? And he said, Yes, absolutely. So I love what you're sharing, you know, if you as we wrap up here, what I'd like to ask you is, if you could predict the future of sales as a whole, you know, if you were to say, I'm going to touch all the lives of people who are in sales right now, and teach them to adopt this new way, we know what is possible when people start to embody this better mindset approach this detachment approach, you know, what is possible for the future of sales?

Josh Braun 42:00

Yeah, I mean, maybe have a little bit of a different take on this. I've been asked similar questions like this before, you could certainly could certainly, like plan for the future, but I don't really live in it too much. I try to stay in this day that we're in now, I don't really like to make a lot of predictions. What I'd like to work on is something that's timeless, which I think is, you know, sort of reflective listening skills, being able to make people feel heard and understood, we can kind of go down this deep rabbit hole. But this idea of staying present, being aware of your thoughts, and making other people feel heard and understood, getting good at that, not just learning about it, but actually practicing it daily, I think is one of those things that's not going to ever change, like Amazon, people are always going to want faster packages delivered. That's never going to change. And I think this is another one of those skills, unlike AI, or holograms, or whatever the next thing is, that's never going to change. Because I think the fundamental thing that all humans want, whether they're in medical device sales, or selling popcorn, is the hunger to be heard and understood. When people feel like you get them. They're much more likely to open up and have a conversation with you.

Claire Davis 43:09

Amazing. Yeah, I completely agree. Where do you before we go? Where do you feel like if you, you know, considering that this applies to so much of our lives, all the corners of our life? If you were to say the the the most use? I've seen the biggest impact or I've seen this make in my life? Where has it been for you? Is it been family work? Friends, the environment, your health record?

Josh Braun 43:33

That's a good question. I would say with my wife. So this is the this is the epiphany that I had with her sometimes. And we all do this, right? We all have things that upset our partners, or things, right. So like, for instance, one of the things my wife would do is she mixed coffee in the morning. She would like leave, she leaves his little coffee stains on the on the counter. Now I do a bunch of things. I'm sure that she but this thing was it would bother me. Right? So I would bring it up. Right away, I would say why didn't Why can't Why can't you? That's the first problem. Why? Why can't you just clean up the coffee stain. When you're done making coffee? It seems so simple. Right? So what was white with mindfulness training. What I can do now is look at the coffee stain and say, Maybe I should just take two seconds, just wipe the coffee stand up and get on with my life. She does a bunch of things for me that I don't even know about laundry, whatever. But I have to make a big deal out of everything. does everything have to be judged? does everything have to be a big deal? Or can I just let things be an acceptance for how things are? Right? And so this is the same thing with with any judgment that you have. Let's say my wife is on Instagram taking pictures of the food and I don't like that. Well that's my thing. That's me putting my judgment on her. You shouldn't be taking pictures of food, but maybe she feels differently. Maybe she got some and why does Why does my opinion matter more than what she Once, just because I don't think it's socially acceptable. So this this idea of like, I'm starting to think I'm getting annoyed by hurts taking a picture of the food, I can certainly make a big deal out of it. Or I can just let it take a picture of the food and move on my life and not judged that she should not be doing that, because that's what I would not do. That's the ego exerting itself on someone else. Yeah, you could just let people be and accept people for who they are and not judge and let let it go. So beforehand, I would these things will be big deals. And you can make things a big deal. Put a huge strain on a relationship. Or you can be aware of your thoughts and simply have a different choice. You can choose to just wipe up the coffee stain. You could choose to just let the picture be taken.

Claire Davis 45:43

Yeah, yes. Oh, my God. And I mean, I feel like I know, but what's it done for your relationship?

Josh Braun 45:50

I mean, Jen. Jen? No, I don't I would have to ask her. I don't know. I would ask her.

Claire Davis 46:01

Yeah, I think that's pretty. That's pretty awesome. I really admire how you guys are such a great team. My husband is my rock and in business and life as well. And you know, it wouldn't be any fun without him. So I'm really, really happy for you. And Jim, it's so awesome. So so much. Yeah, yeah, I really appreciate your time today. Thank you so much for jamming with me on all of the things that you have today for the last hour. You know, you have a lot of things that you're doing, you're doing your sales trainings, you've got your poke the bear cold calling staff, you've got your tongue tied sales flashcards, where can people find out? Or where should they go first, to find out more about your methods and your sales training.

Josh Braun 46:43

So LinkedIn is a good spot. And then my website, Josh brown.com/shop, is where I sell all my stuff. And Claire we shouldn't let so much time go by I really enjoy speaking with you. You're a delight. I always enjoy our conversations. You've got this like light and energy about you that is always so very fulfilling to talk with. You got the hit factor as Oprah Winfrey says, Come on.

Claire Davis 47:02

You just wanted to see my cat. It's okay.

Josh Braun 47:07

When did your cat was blending in? I've even noticed he's a lovable app.

Claire Davis 47:11

No, I adore conversations. Josh truly, I have to say I have the I'm truly blessed to be able to chat with a lot of people in the industry, a lot of sales leaders, a lot of wonderful, generous people like you have met on LinkedIn. But I have to say, above all, every time I hop on the phone with you or on Zoom, you always really make me feel heard. And it is I feel an instant connection. So thank you so so much for your time. You guys. If you're not connected with Josh yet, please do yourself a favor. Check out the things that he's offering. You can only benefit from having him more and more in your circle in your sphere.

Josh Braun 47:46

Thanks, Claire. Hopefully we can meet one day in the real world.

Claire Davis 47:49

Yeah, let's do that. That'd be great. Alright guys, thanks so much.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

How to Effectively Channel Your Core Career Message

AI-Generated Transcript below. There may be errors.

Claire Davis 0:00

Welcome back to the episode everybody on today's medical sales leader. I'm your host, Claire Davis. And today I have an incredible woman here with me. It's Alicia Ramsdell. Alicia, welcome to the show. We're so glad to have you.

Alicia Ramsdell 0:34

I'm excited to be here, Claire. Thank you for having me.

Claire Davis 0:37

Awesome. So first, let me brag on you a little bit. Alicia is the founder and CEO of mindful career path. And this is where mindfulness intersects with your career. And previous to this position, she led over a 15 year stint in corporate America and started a life by default in accounting roles, which I know is thrilling for some thrilling for them. We're grateful for people who can jump into accounting like you. But then she led over she she mindfully cultivated a life by design, and career development. She's a certified career services provider, a global career development facilitator and holds a certificate in mindfulness based stress reduction, which I know we all are probably dying to hear about. And she brings insight around best practices in career development strategies, while also leveraging stress to elevate your life's work. So that is a full package. I am so excited to dive in here with you today. And not just because you just got finished delivering your TEDx talk. So how are you feeling after that amazing accomplishment.

Alicia Ramsdell 1:45

I'm on cloud nine, right now living living out a dream professionally, on a stage in front of a live audience, including family and friends that were there. And then of course, getting to share that with my community, my network once it's live in mid March, and we're recording this in February. So I'm really excited to share that. And it's all about living life, in fulfillment, living in career fulfillment. And I intersect a little bit of our personal story with my own family. So it was something I really held true to my heart. And so speaking about it on stage just came naturally.

Claire Davis 2:23

That's so powerful. And you know, I think of all the things that we could talk about in careers. What drew me to you so specifically, was that it's not just about building your career, it's about finding that fulfillment. And there's a lot to that. So you know, one thing Alicia, and I were talking about backstage is that when it comes to sales and other industries, a lot of times we build this incredible skill set and selling it marketing, and we do it for our companies. And we we enjoy it, right? There's a lot of pride there. But we often forget that we can use those same skill sets for ourselves and for our own career development. So if you don't mind, I would love to just jump in with you here, Alicia and talk a little bit about one of the ways that we can start, which is networking. So can you share a little bit about, you know, what's good networking, how people should use it, and maybe a couple of examples where you've seen it done really well?

Alicia Ramsdell 3:17

Yeah, so as a business owner, so think of me as that sales professional, but then also as a career coach, right, and I'm working with job seekers, I see clearly the certain amount of steps, right networking being one of them, that you need to leverage from a sales process, right into getting a job that you want, as a job seeker or helping build your own career. And so what's interesting is anytime I talk about any of these steps, so you know, I think about networking, preparation, communication, adaptability and problem solving. Anytime I talk about any one of those, they're all interconnected. So if I'm talking about networking, you're going to hear me reference communication skills. If I'm talking about preparation, you're going to hear me reference being adaptable, and so forth. And so with networking, right, whether you're in medical sales, whether you're job searching, it's crucial to have as a part of your strategy, and building relationships authentically, whether it's with individuals in an industry, or making connections, right to get that next sale, or get that next job, it always leads to new opportunities. And how can we all do networking, pretty easy with social media right now, right? You can build an online presence right through LinkedIn or other ways. You can attend industry events, you can go to conferences. The thing is you got to get out of your comfort zone and make that effort to meet those new connections. Right. And a lot of us are intimidated, I think naturally, to get out there and say hello and make these new connections. But through all of these interactions, you're going to build these relationships, hopefully with key decision makers in whatever your target audiences, your target market, your target companies, you can, when you have these conversations and you build these relationships you can figure out are what are their needs, what are their challenges, and then hopefully through that, you're securing meetings with the right decision making teams. And then of course, you're effectively communicating whatever it is you're looking for, whether it's your next product, right in the medical sales world, or it's your ability to do whatever it is that you want to do in that next job, right, and how it aligns with the company's mission. And I do a couple of examples, I'm happy to share with you if you if you'd like,

Claire Davis 5:39

oh, great, I would love to hear him in, you know, if anybody, for those of you here who are already in sales, your medical sales or sales of another kind, and you're thinking up, I'm going to click to the next channel. Of course, I know how to network, right? Yeah, of course you do. But here's what I find very frequently, is that even though we feel like we're extroverts or introverts who know how to make those genuine inroads for business, take to heart what Alicia is saying. Because often when it comes to using that specific tool for your own career, we get caught flat footed, and we're not sure what to say. And then we're not sure if we sound salesy, when we're just trying to make a connection for our own career advancement, or even trying to make those building blocks that it takes to build relationships with physicians at work. So I would love to hear some examples of how you've, you've helped your clients, and then also in your own life, how you've used this kind of style of networking, so it feels good, and it gets the job done.

Alicia Ramsdell 6:42

Absolutely. And one point that you just made that I would like to highlight is when you get to that point of networking, instead of not knowing what to say or how to say it. Talk about two of those other sets that I mentioned earlier. Right, the preparation and the communication skills. So preparing for what's next for me, right is what's the next device that I'm looking to sell in the medical sales world? What's the next job that I'm looking to gain? And what functionalities are a part of that role? And then from there, it's how do I effectively communicate that with my target audience, so you're prepared before you even go into these networking conversations, and you don't want to sound like a robot. But at the same time, if you're prepared, you're willing to and you're able to field questions and be another word adaptable in these conversations about where you or your company or your product or services can deliver value.

Claire Davis 7:38

Yes. And in the research can't I think where people get stuck, and I know I felt stuck back in my career is that I would prepare but I would only prepare on one side of the equation. It would be I know my product. I know the disease states. I know what's what types of different surgeries I need to be focusing on. And I know how to do my talking points. But I was missing the research that is so so critical for the other half, which is knowing my target, intimately knowing what's on their mind, knowing what they're worrying about, and why I even am relevant to helping them in the situation they're in and what even is the situation? You know, I think that that's such an important nuance that you bring up because it can feel stifling. And it can feel like a roadblock when we only do the practice and the research on our side of the table. And we can miss the opportunity of the relevance that connection to why we're even having the conversation what they're thinking about. So do you see that as something that's a different level of research? Or just, you know, you've got to have the yin and yang of both sides of the equation.

Alicia Ramsdell 8:53

But I think you hit the nail on the head because I think about again, if you're trying to if you're in medical sales, and you're trying to pitch a new device, what are the what are the two inevitable that are going to happen? Number one, that new device is going to be expensive. And number two, you're gonna have to talk to the objections that concern about the costs, the concerns that it's not compatible with the current existing system they have internally, right, so you really have to understand and do the research ahead of time for those needs that they have for those challenges that they have. So they might have that need for that new device that new offering. But what are they going to come up with for objections? What are their challenges going to be? So being able to confront those head on and having prepared that and that's through networking. Getting back to that, through networking is having conversations with people that know let's say you're trying to pitch this to a new organization, talking within your network to people that have worked at that organization currently work at that organization know a lot of what that organization to understand well, what would their objections be? What are their challenges, what are their needs, and then from there are being able to have a more effective communication style and be adaptable to what they come back with in as far as objections go.

Claire Davis 10:10

Can we? Do you mind sharing that networking story that you mentioned before?

Alicia Ramsdell 10:15

Yeah. So I have two, two different examples. So one, again, as a sales professional, here's how I look at it. For me, when I started out my business, I had an imagination that I was going to work with individuals at the beginning. And eventually, I was going to get to those corporate partners, right? I actually landed my first corporate partner through a professional relationship that I had built, but I landed it much earlier than I anticipated. So I started the company. And yeah, I set up my company at 2020. That's called that January, by May, I had booked my first corporate partner. And the reason I had done this is that, through this professional relationship I had with somebody on LinkedIn, they were an executive director at my future purse, corporate partner. And from there, I was creating content that was relevant to the business needs and the economic environment. Remember, mid 2020, we're talking COVID times. So I was talking a lot about start leveraging stress, mindfulness based stress reduction techniques, and so forth. So in a personal follow up, right, something as simple as I said, Happy Birthday to this individual via LinkedIn on a private message, it prompted this natural follow up for him to say, hey, you know, thanks so much. By the way, I really love the content that you're putting out on social media, I think it's so relevant. And things like mindfulness based stress reduction techniques, could be beneficial to my team, can we talk about how maybe that we could partner up in at bring your expertise into our organization, and that example alone just shows that whether you're a sales professional, or you're a job seeker, you can be so successful in your role if you're authentically building relationships, and then gaining access to those new opportunities?

Claire Davis 12:07

You know, it's so interesting, when you mentioned that, it's just that little step you took Happy Birthday. You know, I mean, congrats on the new role. But like, it doesn't have to be rocket science, or an incredibly in depth, free plan message with a couple of talking points. It's just connecting with people on a human level, on a personal level. And I personally find that people would prefer to connect on a personal level than business first. That's really where the trust goes, versus trying to reverse engineer, okay, like, here's my product. Are you interesting? Also, tell me about your kids? Like, that's not natural, how we talk in the real world. So I love that example. That's a really good one, and how quickly you were able to bring that corporate client on. And it was because they saw what you were doing as relevant. So can you talk a little bit about maybe the communication step? Because it's one thing to talk about what we think is relevant to or what we think we need to share. It's another thing to be considering our customer first and putting things out there that can help other people in by meeting them where they're at. So can you talk a little bit about that communication step?

Alicia Ramsdell 13:24

Sure. So whether again, whether you're in medical sales, or you're job searching, it's going to require those strong communication skills, right, you're always going to have to clearly convey your information, write why you want this role, or why your product is more effective than others, right. But while they're talking, and hopefully they're doing most of the talking, you're listening actively, right? And then in your head, and then eventually responding to any objections. In bolts in either scenarios, that's a crucial step. So again, if we talked about this a little bit before, but if you're selling a device, and it's new, and it's the next best device in the market, right, the two objections are going to be it's expensive. And we have concerns with our costs. And we've already gone through budgeting, right? So if you recognize that importance of actively listening, and then clearly communicating, you know, addressing the company's objections, that's going to be beneficial to say, Hey, I hear you. And this is how we've been successful in the past. This is the cost savings that we've that you can see over a long period of time or a certain period of time. And then having the data and support to back it all up is where that level of comfort. Right so we were talking earlier about you know, you know, happy birthday or How are your kids, right? There's a some level of comfort when you're communicating with individuals on that level. But again, bringing that level of comfort. Hey, acknowledge it can be scary. It can be expensive, you know, there could be budget constraints. Fears proof that it's worked in the past. And this is about the time period where you'll really see those cost benefits if you started with this new innovative product, rather than staying with the old product, and I can, again, touch base on, you know, like a job seekers example of that.

Claire Davis 15:18

But I'll just pause here for a moment that think that's brilliant. And you know, when you are positioning it, as we're not selling the mattress here, we're selling the good night's sleep, right, as my friend Heather would say. And I think that it's really powerful to not sell on features. And I know that we've all heard that a million times. But when a hospital brings on, say, one of the major med tech companies who provides everything for the enterprise account, it can feel really challenging to sell on benefits, because most of the time, we assume that that larger company who's already in that hospital with all of the different technology, there's no way we could compete. And a lot of times it comes down to price, like you said, and so it's that next level of connecting with that decision maker, like you shared on a personal note, and also sharing what the outcome could be in the future, what the peace of mind could look like how they could feel a breath of fresh air, knowing that this product is much less likely to break down and hold them up for the rest of their surgical cases for the day. So I love that you're focusing on what the future outcome can look and feel like I think that's really powerful. So yes, we'd love to hear some stories about that. Even from, from a job seeker perspective, too.

Alicia Ramsdell 16:39

Yes, that's what this next one is about. So I had a client and they were looking to where they were interested in transitioning into the pharmaceutical, pharmaceutical industry. And they were coming from another industry, right, they were coming from a higher education.

Claire Davis 16:58

Sorry, it's it, it can feel like a dissociated jump. But I always tell my teachers who want to transition into here, the transferable skills that teachers have, are powerful. We're talking communication, project planning, dealing with young minds and attitudes sometimes right and getting people to be motivated to take on what we want to share with it, which I think are all wonderful skills. When it comes to getting into medical sales. I remember when I used to interview, one of the things I would share was, well, I know that you feel like it's very challenging, complex conversations to have with these oncologists. I'm very comfortable with conversations that are challenging because I used to run a 60 child large daycare program. So if I can navigate all of those different personalities, just imagine what I could do with the targeted call list. So I love that you share that. Okay, so, so please continue. Sorry, I interrupted you there.

Alicia Ramsdell 17:56

No, that's okay. And leadership, too, is another big one, transitioning from higher education, right leadership, whether it's with students, or whether it's with colleagues that are part of your team, that's another big one that I see is a big transferable skill. So before working with with me, she had told me that she had been applying to jobs and never hearing back and she had been doing this for over a year. So when we started to do is we started to work together and effectively channel her core career message, right and what she wanted and where she wanted to go. And that inevitably is going to increase her chances of landing a job, right. So this every step of the way, it's communication. So step one, you got to research that position that you want the company that you want. So she researched for target company, the position she wanted, the functionalities, understood the job description, she also looked for information about whom she would be potentially working for or with and that sort of role. So understanding how they weren't successful, right. And then she was able to once you understood the functionalities of the job, and how her transferable skills aligned, she said, Alright, let's craft or reset, let's craft that tailored, resume, kit, tailored cover letter, etc. So she used all of that information that she gathered. And she tailored it with the right alignment between her transferable skills, and what they were looking for in that functionality. And then the next step, preparing for that interview, again, huge point for communication skills or effective communication skills. So she researched who she would be interviewing with, how they were successful, and how they got from point A to point B. And then also other as I mentioned before other people in the organization that were successful, and to say, all right, Have I done anything similar? And let me show these examples. And then last, of course, when you're in the interview, actively listening to the interviewers questions, being able to respond, making your answers concise to the point and showing examples of how her experiences have done illustrated how her skill sets can then have her not only be successful, but bringing something different than what other people from the five step pharmaceutical industry could typically bring. And that's really where we went through the process. And from there, luckily, luckily, she did the work. But it was the first job they luckily, because it was the first role that she had applied for when we started working together. And it ended up being her dream role or dream job. And she ended up getting it and actually started talking. It wasn't, that wasn't the type of role that she was looking for. She kept saying to me, I want this role. And she had, there was a title that she was looking for. And I said, Okay, well, let's go through the process of understanding why you want this role. But then after we did our exercises, she realized, wow, this functionalities are not what I was imagining they would be. And so she did have to pivot, she did have to become adaptable. And she ended up leaving the shop. And whenever I talk to her beyond that she's always so grateful and happy and where she is today.

Claire Davis 21:02

Oh, that's outstanding. And when you're talking about the way that you got her to recognize where she'd find fulfillment, was it the I've heard you talk about this many times before? Was it using that grid that you share, where you're finding the things, you want to do things, you don't want to do things you want to delegate? That kind of thing?

Alicia Ramsdell 21:19

Absolutely. And that's the four quadrant strategy to career fulfillment is actually what my TED talk is about. And so when people listen to the TED talk at a later date, they'll really kind of visually be able to visualize it. But yes, it's really understanding. If you think of a piece of paper, you draw a line down the middle, and a line across the middle, you got four squares. So that top left, you're writing down, where do I thrive? And where have I been successful? Right, that bottoms left square is where have I not yet been successful, but want to be? So those are your learning opportunities. And then on the right side, that top right side is, hey, where have you been successful, but don't care to pursue it. So for me, right, I was in accounting didn't care to pursue it. So I kind of wanted to leave that alone or delegate. And then that bottom right quadrant is where have you had responsibilities, maybe you weren't that knowledgeable, but you don't want to pursue that. So then when you're focusing in on, where's my next opportunity in my career, you want to look to the left side to say, alright, this is these are the things that I want to get more involved in from a functionality standpoint. But knowing and understanding the right side is equally as important. Because when you view those areas, they're still important to have as a part of your life. Like for me to run a business, I still need to understand accounting and how it all works, and tax rules and regulations, you know, running my business, but I can then choose to delegate if I want, or I could build partnering relationships to make me more successful, and as a business owner, within my career and so forth.

Claire Davis 22:57

That's so interesting. And do you feel first of all, that framework is wonderful. The four quadrant framework, right? Four quadrant strategy? Do you feel like there is a mental block when it comes to that delegation piece? Like we feel responsible for the career that we anticipate or the business that we're running as a whole? And people can be resistant to delegating that piece?

Alicia Ramsdell 23:24

Yes, because I think that people invest so much time from whether it's an early age or not, at some point, you make a decision, and you say, this is what I'm going to do with my life. Right? And then you get so heavily invested in it, that you feel guilty if you don't follow through all the way. And I'm done. Jharna blanket term, but there is a term for it. It's not impostor syndrome, there's another one, there's, I'll have to think about it. But there is another term for it. But it's being so heavily invested something and then saying I can't leave now, right? And especially if you have a family, let's say say, Well, if I leave now, and I'm leaving job security on the table, or whatever it is, you might say, well, then I'm not doing right by my family, I'm not doing right by my community, or I'm not doing right. If you're younger, and you say well, my parents helped support me going through college, I'm not doing right by my parents. So there's a I think there's a sense of guilt in moving on in I don't think it's necessarily a feeling that you can't do it. But you know that you're physically able to do it. But you don't feel right, making the move. And that's where I feel like a lot of people stall out. Myself included. I spent 15 plus years in accounting and tax but I was good at it. You know, I went to school for it. I was able to support my family in ways that I'm not sure I would have been able to do if I was starting out right out of college as an entrepreneur. But I was able to, you know, make a transition when it was right to me, and I'm grateful that I did it even though it took a long time to get there. Yeah. Wow.

Claire Davis 25:01

And do you think that there is a fulfillment, a career fulfillment that everyone can achieve? Is this something that, you know, you're really lucky? If you're not you find it and you're able to lead your career search this way? Or is this something that's really accessible to everyone?

Alicia Ramsdell 25:19

I think it depends. Is it accessible to everyone? Yes. But it also depends on your team. It also depends on your priorities. So if your priorities are number one, I gotta put food on the table. So I need a job, and I need to make the money. I appreciate that. And so that might not look like career fulfillment in the way that career fulfillment looks like to somebody else, loving their jobs arriving at their job excited to get to work every day, career fulfillment is somebody else might be putting food on their table for their family might be having weekends and nights free, and not worrying about any sort of, you know, management role where they have to, you know, work with people outside of the normal nine to five hours. And that's excellent. So I don't think career fulfillment is the same for everyone. But yes, it's accessible to everybody, and how that looks for every individual is going to be different.

Claire Davis 26:14

Wow. Absolutely. And I think that's really important to remember. You know, when, when someone comes to me often, and they say, I want to break into medical sales, they have an idea of what that looks like, and, and what that fulfillment might feel like. But going back to doing that four quadrant exercise, and doing that deep level of research that you mentioned, knowing the leadership, knowing what they what their business focuses and goals are knowing a ton about the marketplace. I feel like sometimes that naturally brings that sort of alignment together. And you don't have to stretch your imagination of oh, I imagined it's going to be like this, you can find out and the actual fulfillment of that role, or the actual picture of what that role would really be like, will emerge. So I love that there's hope out there, I absolutely am inspired by what you're doing and helping people to find what this is for themselves. Because like you say, it's unique for everybody. fulfillment is unique. It's it's individual. So if someone wants to find out more about you, find out more about what your TED talk is dropping, and then also maybe work with you, where would you send them.

Alicia Ramsdell 27:36

So I'm on mindful career path.com. All of my social media links are there as well, you can find out all about my business, and why I do what I do every day when I wake up. And of course, I'm on LinkedIn. So Alicia Ramsdale, they'll find me on LinkedIn. And I'm always happy to connect. I'm always happy to make introductions for anybody within my network. Because if I'm not helping people get to their target destination, then I'm not doing what I set out to do when I started this company. And you know, three, four years ago.

Claire Davis 28:11

Oh, powerful. Yeah, absolutely. And you know what I know, for everyone here who's watching, they're thinking, Wait, we just touched the tip of the iceberg. So at least I hope you will come back and chat with me again, I would love to dive into the different stress reducing strategies that you share with your clients and your corporate clients and around to if you're up for it, I'm up for ready to go.

Alicia Ramsdell 28:31

I actually spoke with our Virginia Franco on some of the Mindfulness Based Stress reductions on her podcast not too long ago. So I would love to do an episode with you and touch base on it. Because I think stress of course, it's inevitable for all of us whether we're talking about our careers or our personal lives. But if we can find a way to leverage it, rather than trying to run for me, I think we're all better off in the long run. And you know, what happens is that we end up teaching others to do the same. So that's our own children, whether that's family members, whether that's friends community, I think everybody can benefit from that knowledge.

Claire Davis 29:09

Oh, yeah, absolutely. Well, there's no better way to end a podcast than to drop a gem like that. Thank you so much for being here with me today. Alicia, you're such a delight. I'm completely inspired by what you're doing in here. We'll see you next next time on round two. Okay, thanks for coming.

Alicia Ramsdell 29:27

Sounds perfect. Thank you.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

How to Plan Out your Career

AI-Generated Transcript below. There may be errors.

Claire Davis 0:00

Hey everybody, and welcome back to another episode of today's medical sales leader. I'm Claire Davis, your host. And today I have someone with me who truly embodies what modern medical sales and health care careers can look like. Welcome, Stu, it's so nice to have you on the show.

Stu Brandon 0:37

Thank you very much, Claire. And I don't know if I could say I embody that, but I'll go with it.

Claire Davis 0:44

Okay, go with it. So you don't know Stu yet. Please take a minute right now. We'll wait. And make sure you follow Him and check out what he's doing over on LinkedIn. Because I know in the short time that he and I have gotten to know each other over on LinkedIn, I've learned a ton from him. And you really know what you're talking about. Stu is a 29 year veteran in ortho sales, which is a big deal. And he's successfully nugget navigated. Something that can hold a lot of us back in our career, whether you're in sales, whether you're a provider, whether you are in any piece of healthcare with proprietary information or technique, and that is a non compete. So today, we're going to talk with Stu about his specialty, which is helping reps to overcome the non compete and also to establish what your life and career can really look like. Because sometimes it takes somebody else or takes looking at somebody else's path to even begin to imagine what that could be like for ourselves. So my first question for you is do really is what lit the fire under you to start pursuing this as a possibility the non cookie cutter traditional sales role.

Stu Brandon 1:54

Yeah. Well, Claire, I can tell you that from my team's experience, I was with a big orthopedic company in a relatively small geography for 21 years. And every rep and med device understands what's happening, or average selling prices are decreasing. And that's market forces. I mean, there's, that's not going to reverse. But at the same time, a lot of these companies are decreasing people's commission rates on top of the ASP is going down. So it's a it's a double whammy. And I looked at my teammates at the time about 10 years ago, and we were talking about the market trends, etc. And we looked at each other. And we said, this is just unsustainable, if it keeps going the way it is. And talking with everybody. I mean, we all realize that, that prices are going to continue to go down to some, to some extent, I don't think we've hit the bottom yet. And truthfully, if I had a crystal ball, you know, who knows how close we are. But I knew that our current model was unsustainable. And, and ironically, what helped us understand that was, as we were talking about transitioning to some smaller companies, where we'd have a bigger geography a little bit higher commission rates, we were in negotiation with a rural hospital, that we were going to be kind of the sole provider of orthopedic implants, that would be trauma implants total joint, as well as a sports medicine products. And we were down the path, you know, we you know, the hospital eventually did it after we left, but we looked at each other and thought that it was about a million dollar sales opportunity, which, which was big for our business. But we were at 9% Commission as our whole team. So that's $90,000, we would have had to hire someone else to help us. And by the time you do that, there's there's limited upside, not only for that future person, but for everyone on the team. And we were a unique team, we were all sharing a percentage of the revenue as it was of that 9% From our territory. But we just looked at each other and said, guys, how are we going to do this? This isn't sustainable, because we're going to get this and we're going to have to hire someone else. If we get another opportunity hire someone else. And then we are all working significantly harder. For just a little bit more at best.

Claire Davis 4:32

Yeah. And you know, at the core, once that realization occurs, Did you sense a deep motivation with the team? I mean, what what effect did that have on the people involved?

Stu Brandon 4:44

I would say for us, it wasn't demotivating because unlike a lot of teams, we were actually a team that we chose to work together. A lot of these large orthopedic companies are creating these mega teams where they're your territories next to theirs. which is next to, there's all three of you combine, which is very hard to create a true team if you're just thrown together rather than choose to work together. So, for us it, yes, there was a demotivating side to it. But we took the path of like, look, there's this problem, how are we going to? How are we going to get through it? How are we going to solve it? Because we wanted to continue to work with each other? Yeah. So what did you do? So what we did was, we began about a year's process of figuring out, okay, this isn't a long term fit for us. What is next? So, through our relationships that we had with some of our surgeons, you know, we, we were constantly talking with them about the future of the industry, both our side as well as their side. And, you know, so they were aware of some of the struggles that we were having, in then we just kept talking to through with them about, you know, what the future is, what their aspirations were, what their struggles and frustrations were were, with some of the big companies and surgeons are frustrated, as well with the way the industry is going. So we took that as an opportunity to find a smaller manufacturer, in then we we chose to, to go with them. And a certain percentage of our customers wanted to go with us. And so that was good, but then that embarked on dealing with non competes.

Claire Davis 6:34

Right. Right. Which brings us to kind of the core of what I'm I'm really interested in, in you sharing today, because I think that this holds a lot of folks back. One, I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, but a misunderstanding of the power that a noncompete may or may not have.

Stu Brandon 6:53

Yeah, I think you're definitely right. I think that there's a lot of people in fact, I just had a conversation with a guy yesterday about noncompetes, who he had battled similar things to me. And ultimately, what I have found is your contract, whether your non compete is enforceable or not enforceable, it is a mechanism that companies or distributors can use to intimidate you, and try and manipulate you, to stop you from leaving. Now, I can tell you right now that I am not a lawyer, and everybody has to first of all, talk with their lawyer, lawyer about their non compete, because everybody's situation isn't different. But at its core, what I just said is true. If they have a non compete, or if you have a non compete in your contract, it is there for one reason, should things go the way that your employer doesn't want them to go, if you're talking about leaving, they can use that to intimidate and manipulate you. And that is what, you know, we learned the hard way. And it's something that I don't want anybody to go through. There is a side of it, that my employer thought I had breached my contract. And Legally speaking, you know, he did have a claim against that, just as I would have had a claim that I believe he breached his contract with us over the stuff that happened over the years. And ultimately, that's the frustration of of our legal system for a lot of people is that it ends up whoever has more money, whether it be a large manufacturer or a big distributor, they're going to have more money than the people that are fighting. And so they can, they can cause the person to spend 10s of 1000s of dollars just to try and keep working in the industry.

Claire Davis 8:54

So from what I understand of non competes, one of the factors can even just be what state you live in, that some states have this ability to enforce these. And some states say no, they're unenforceable. So are there some other kind of baseline things that people should know about non competes before they sign them and when they're negotiating for a new job?

Stu Brandon 9:16

Yeah, and again, I am not an expert on that. But I do know that even quote, unquote, Right to Work states, if you have a non compete, it can be a major headache for you. And, and even I know California for that it's illegal that people that sign a non compete. And again, I'm not a lawyer, but I do believe that that would even allow them. If you were in California and have a non compete from years back. You still I believe have to get in front of a judge for the judge to say this is not enforceable. And that process can be very expensive for people to do that.

Claire Davis 9:52

Yeah. Yeah. So let's talk about the alternative or say, you know, say your work Ken on a great big contract and you work for a huge orthopedic, med tech company that would shall not be named right? There are many. And say this happens to you, you're under a non compete, what are your options? And and specifically, I want to sort of lean into what you now coach people to do, which is build teams look at other avenues. So what are our options? Right?

Stu Brandon 10:29

Well, the reality is, is that there are a lot of options. And I'll just go back, what I was stuck in was I did not understand what the real options were, for us at the time, I was so focused on the business that we wanted to bring over, I was so focused on our core competencies, products, etc, which it was, which was natural. But what I was naive to, the fact is, there's all sorts of products that orthopedic surgeons are using in our instance, that that you can pick up that aren't even before you change companies, that won't be a conflict from your current manufacturer. Now, with some of the large companies, you know, that's harder to do, like, you know, take j&j, they've got a ton of ton of companies, not much in medical sales that that you could pick up that wouldn't be in, in competition of one of their companies. But there still still are some stuff. So one way to go about it is you can even pick up products, now as a way to start building that towards the five year plan or whatever the whatever that is. But on top of that, what I really coach people to do is to have relationships with your customers, which this is a long process as well, where you are constantly talking with them, just about the business of orthopedics from their side, you know, their struggles that they're having, and having the relationship that they understand the struggles that you are having as well and industry has, and not using it as a way to say hey, you know, I'm, I'm in a hard spot here, help me out. But if you're constantly looking for ways to help them out, understand their plight, because let's use orthopedics as the example, I mean joint replacement. Each year, CMS continues to cut physicians reimbursement for a total joint. In fact, my dad was an orthopedic surgeon and he said back in the 80s, Medicare reimbursement for a total joint to a physician was $5,000. And today, it's I think about $1,300. Wow, yeah, now, the numbers of joint replacements are astronomical now compared to they were then. But just just look at that, at that difference. And what has happened since the since the 80s. To today, and our doctors are on a hamster wheel, while just gotta keep doing more gotta keep doing more. That is exactly where the ortho rep feels. We just got to do more cases, more cases, because our ASP is decreasing and our commission rates are decreasing as well. And these large companies aren't done. They, they understand on one level that, that if I go to complain to my surgeon, customer, they can say, Stu, we've been dealing with this for years, you know, suck it up, or whatever. And that's why I would say it's just so important to have that relationship with your customer. So that they understand that you truly do empathize with their situation, and understand where they are, and that you are creatively trying to help them get where they want and need to be as well as their minds me.

Claire Davis 13:59

Oh, sorry. Go ahead.

Stu Brandon 14:00

No, go ahead.

Claire Davis 14:02

This reminds me of a story that I was just speaking with a client and one thing that I find when we are so you know hell bent on selling whatever is in our bag, is we are we almost had blinders on. So when you're talking about, you know, continuing that conversation with that physician and understanding all the parts that he's still he or she are dealing with, with their orthopedic business, it's hard to do that when we're just focusing on do they need arthroscopic equipment do they need, you know, total knee? But But when that's possible, that's when those long term relationships seem to be able to be forged. A client of mine recently he was calling on a physician and he already had a product in mind that he was trying to sell, but he did what you're saying. And he found out that the reason that the business wasn't growing had enough thing to do with his product, but everything to do with the EMR integration, which nobody had time to deal with. So he stepped up to deal with it. And not that that's carrying another product, I guess in a sense it is. But I think if he wasn't, if he wasn't able to step back and do what you're sharing, I don't think he would have been able to bring that hospital system aboard, because there was another problem behind the problem behind the problem that he was able to see.

Stu Brandon 15:27

So the other thing is that building this relationship with them, is the thing that we did do correctly. And we did a bunch of things wrong is we over the years forge the relationship, where we went and talked with every single one of our surgeons, let them know exactly where things were, you know, because we understood their struggles, as well, as you know, we laid out our struggles, and, and they were extremely supportive of us, every single one of our customers was supportive of us doing what we were about to do. And what we did do. Now, what I will tell you is that not every single surgeon, you know, followed us, which that's completely fine. And I talk a lot about influence on my LinkedIn posts or videos, and I consider influence, when you have the relationship with your customer, that you have the ability to go to them and really talk about anything, you're not worried about them, you know, betraying confidence with someone else you truly have. You are influential enough in their life for them to listen and give you unbiased candid feedback, which that is the key to making these types of decisions. Knowing what customers support you, and there are customers that will support you because they like you and want what's best for you. But then there's a couple other customers that will support you, in their view of, of implants or orthopedic products, whatever it is, is they can look at them and say like, Yes, I like that I would be willing to help support you in this different way as well. And that is it. That's what most reps struggle with, is just having those conversations having the relationship to do that. Because most reps are paranoid that if they start doing that word will get out. And and as far as non competes go, that is not a violation of your non compete to be talking with your customers about issues that they are having an issues that you are having, and understanding options for the future for everybody.

Claire Davis 17:44

Yeah, well, I mean, if anything, that just sounds like great relationship building. I mean, at the at the core, people still want to work with people that they like. So what better way to identify that than to share and listen Be a good listener for what people really mean, and what they're really dealing with? So do you suggest also that, you know, reps who are considering maybe this long game with, you know, not necessarily tied to their one specific product or company they're with now? Do you suggest that they have a conversation where that's the focus with their physician, maybe, you know, if they go grab coffee in the break room or something, say, hey, you know, I'm hoping that I can be a support and a partner to you long term wherever I go, is that something you coach on?

Stu Brandon 18:31

Absolutely. And I think that that is just a continued conversation that you're having over a long, long period of time. And it's showing that not just in your words, but your actions. And even even from the standpoint I see reps all the time who the surgeon has, has a problem, whether it's a revision of a total joint or something that they are focused on, okay, I have a product that can be used for this, when in fact, it may not be the best one for that surgeon to be using. And even the relationship of differing business to other people, where other people have better products to use for certain instances, that type of thing can go a long way to show your surgeons that you care about about them, and that you want what's best for them, as opposed to Yeah, anytime I go to sue, he brings me a product that is used for that, even though it may not be the best, just the ability to to know what's a good fit for your customers, what isn't a good fit? And I mean, what better way to show them that you respect them, and what was best for them if you don't have the best solution and you say, hey, go to talk to that guy. He's got a better solution for you.

Claire Davis 19:56 '

You know, it's funny, I think that a lot of times when we Talk about what would surgeons want, for example, with with their technology, a lot of times the first thing we automatically think of is data and outcomes. And of course, that's important. But I was actually speaking to one of our friends who's a heart surgeon the other day. And she said that, yes, of course, these are the kinds of things that I want, I want to make sure that they've got, you know, the trials are solid, that data is solid, that might my colleagues have used it, and they've had a good experience. But what she did also say was that she has small hands. And while that seems rather, rather, you know, insignificant, right, when it comes to a buying decision, for her, it's top of the list. Because as a small statured woman, if she's trying to get in there and clamp something, and the clamp is too big for her hand, she's not going to use it. So I feel like the way that you are teaching people to have this ongoing, more in depth conversation about what each individual Doctor really needs and likes. Because everybody's got a different way of making decisions. I think that's really smart.

Stu Brandon 21:06

Right? Well, you nailed it there. Everybody has a different way of making decisions. And one thing that I keep bringing up with people is that as, as professional salespeople, why do a lot of us sell to people completely the opposite way that we like to buy products. And the example that, you know, that I will get give you is, as more and more cases are going from the hospitals to physician don't ASCs I made this mistake two years ago, I was all excited thinking, Okay, if we can just come in a better pricing with very equivalent products, that's going to move the needle, and it's going to move it quickly. Because that is a logical thing to think. However, when a friend of mine suggested something about my own buying buying patterns, there's a lot of things that I spend money on that I could buy an equivalent thing that may be just as good for cheaper, but I don't interesting. And why is that? Because we make we make decisions and buying decisions for emotional reasons, not always logical. And in the tool, or the clamp for the heart surgeon and her small hands. I mean, that's just to go to it could be as simple as, you know, something like that. Or a doctor may just like these tools better, just how they fit in their hand. I mean, even if it's not something like you said about the size of the instruments, but just like, hey, these just feel better to me. Like I guarantee you mechanics and woodworkers, they prefer certain tools over others, even though both work.

Claire Davis 22:56

Yeah, yeah. You know, that's a really great point. It brings up a point I heard a physician making on a podcast yesterday, I have to think about which podcast it was, and that sales podcast maybe. And he was saying, you know, what's, what's one of your most? What's one of your the things that you rely on most when it comes to working with someone in medical sales? And he said, The surgeon said, availability, hands down. So maybe it's when you're comparing two products. It's the product that comes with the rep or the manager who's easier to get a hold of when it breaks or when they're out of one or when a trade needs fixed. Right. So there's so many different ways so Okay, so I'm curious now, though, tell us what what was that buying behavior that you keyed in on that you make decisions on? I promise not I promised to use this information for good.

Stu Brandon 23:55

All right, you're talking about for me personally, right? Yes. It was, it was pretty silly. Because if it was, it was soft drinks. Okay, I have to have Coca Cola. If I'm drinking. If I'm drinking a cola, it has to be coke. Okay, and so, I would spend $5 for a coke instead of $1 for a Pepsi. Yeah, it just just would. However, the funny thing is, is I like Dr. Pepper also. And there's a lot of imitation Dr. Peppers out there that I like better than Dr. Pepper that are significantly cheaper. So it's just something like that is like emotionally I'm very tied to Coca Cola. But other things. I don't care. Enough. It's completely not a logical reason, right?

Claire Davis 24:47

Yeah, yeah. Well, I guess it isn't. It isn't because really at the, you know, we're human. In all the human behavioral decision making principles apply. Hear. So, you know, silly, you're not honestly, I think that it's just it's great marketing and branding Coca Cola, obviously is a is a giant and it's, you know, it's because they've really learned how to make a brand, something that's tied to a heart string. Right? Someone told me the other day, they said the difference between a product and a product in your home is the product in your home was because it was a brand that you fell in love with. It was just a brand with a product attached. Yeah, believe it.

Stu Brandon 25:31

Right. And I just want to go back to what that surgeon said about,

Claire Davis 25:36

hey, you know, we're human, in all the human behavioral decision making there rep being available?

Stu Brandon 25:42

is obviously that's important. But I know from experience that that's not always I mean, a certain level, they'll have availability, yes, yeah. But there's a lot of surgeons out there that that wouldn't rank nearly as high on their list is what you said, Sure. And those are important things to say. Because, again, you may have what you deem the best product, you may always be available. But what if your personality doesn't, doesn't mesh? Well, with that surgeons personality, it doesn't matter if you have the best or it doesn't matter, if you have are always available, you might just be annoying to that person.

Claire Davis 26:28

Because then they're too correct.

Stu Brandon 26:30

And these are little things that, you know, the reality is in sales. There's not a formula that we if you do A, B, C, and D, you're gonna get the sale. Because it can be anything whimsical, like, I just don't like still, I'm not gonna buy from him. Or Susan, okay guy, but I don't want to see him every day and the or I would rather see someone else.

Claire Davis 26:57

Or, hey, are those those types who will only buy when their colleague is already using? That's right, that's something that we ran into a lot in diagnostics, especially in, you know, tumor base technology. And when we would sell to one thoracic surgeon, it really was the windfall for the rest of the group. Because without that one buy in the one that they really looked to, to try new technology. They were going to wait and see and wait and see.

Stu Brandon 27:29

Well, I can tell you what orthopedic total joint surgeons is, a lot of times, well, if this guy in my group is using it, I'm not going to use it. Oh, interesting. Okay, I'm gonna blaze my own trail using us. So yeah.

Claire Davis 27:45

Okay, so, you know, we're talking a lot about decision making, now blazing our own trail. So it makes me start thinking about when you're working in healthcare as a rep as a manager, a sales professional? How do you start to bring your mind around to this isn't the only way to do business? I don't only have an option to work for a large orthopedic or med tech company, as somebody on someone's team, how do you encourage people to start the conversation? Or the or the dreaming even of what else is out there?

Stu Brandon 28:30

Well, I can tell you for years, I was a Depew snob. I worked for I worked for diffuse and these, you know, early on, that was my first job early on in sales training. I was I was drinking the Kool Aid. Fact, I got out of sales training, I was thinking, oh my gosh, with how good these are compared to what I just learned how bad the other companies are. I was thinking it's malpractice if you weren't using hips and knees from steel, of course now. And then this was a gradual thing over time. And then, oh, four or five years into my career. I sat down with a guy who was doing exactly what we are doing now. But 20, almost 25 years ago, 24 years ago, he was representing multiple small companies. And I am embarrassed to say this, but I sat down with him. And I was looking at him and saying, you know, poor guy, he's having to rep. He's having to rep all of these, all of these things. Where he was just so far ahead of where I think the industry is, is continuing to gradually go because he had the ability to okay, this surgeon likes this. I will start with this company. And if there's things that he doesn't like about it, that's okay, we've got other things that we could bring him if he's open to it. And so what I would say is the early or, as soon as possible, you need to understand that the products that you have to sell, they may be great products. But within our industry, hip and knee replacement, I mean, the, there's no way really to prove an implant is better than the other from the standpoint of if a surgeon uses it, and does the procedure for the right reasons, and he's a good surgeon, he's gonna get good results. Now, there will be things that work better in his hands or her hands compared to another person. But again, that goes back to the tools, you know, those tools feel better to them. But I would say that the, the quicker that you can understand that what you have is not the best option for everybody, the better. And the quicker that you can understand that, hey, everybody's got good products, the better, because then you can detach yourself from Okay, I am Stu that works from the Pew, rather than I'm Sue who works for my surgeon, I find them solutions that work for them and their patients.

Claire Davis 31:20

Interesting. And where do you, you know, point people to starting this kind of sort of mixed bag carry of products? Do they individually approach larger companies? Is it better to speak with small ones? How does that all work?

Stu Brandon 31:37

Yeah. So to the like, today, if someone wants to do this, the large companies are going to say no, you have to sell only, I have a dream that someday, I'll be able to go to anybody and say, Hey, doctor, so and so wants to buy through me? Can I have access to your products? Because what we are talking I mean, we equate it to insurance, you have the captive agents, and you have insurance brokers, right? Where you have an independent, like my independent insurance guy who I went to high school with, if I called him up, he could have said, hey, I want some life insurance. Tomorrow, I'm gonna have like 10 Different companies, life insurance products that we can go through. Whereas if it's, you know, your Allstate or State Farm or, or those, they're, they're what I would call a captive agent, they work for that company, we're a broker can work for the customer. And, and that, to me, that, to me, is is the way ultimately the best way to sell products, and also for our hospitals for our ASCs for our Surgeon customers. I truly believe that's the best way to buy products as well.

Claire Davis 32:59

I think that to me, if I was a surgeon, I think that is the way I would want to buy products, because I would, it would help me to skip the agenda behind it and know that the person who was selling to me was assessing my needs uniquely and had a variety of options based on the size of my hand, if my partners are using and they know I don't want to, you know, use the same thing I want to trailblaze Right. Correct. So, okay.

Stu Brandon 33:30

Yeah. And truthfully, the, the thing that is the struggle now is that's not the way it has been done. And so we are bumping up against a little bit of that. But I think that every year, that goes by surgeons in their residencies and fellowships are exposed to more and more products than than 20 years ago. You know, 20 years ago, it was dominated by, by four companies, or what makes up for companies now. And even just market shift is in orthopedics, the market shifts extremely slowly. But 1015 years ago, the large four orthopedic companies had 95% market share and joint replacement. Today, it's about 84 85%. Interesting, so okay, it's a slow shift, but the way market share shifts in orthopedics. It is rapidly shifting.

Claire Davis 34:33

Interesting. So what do you think the future is here for someone who is say tied right now to a large orthopedic company, it is it? Is it feasible for them to be able to put together a plan like the one that you're suggesting and jump into that style of a career within a month within a year? What What's that look like? a month?

Stu Brandon 34:56

No, because it does take some planning. I would say six months to a year is what it takes to plan it out. If I had it to do differently, I wish there would have been people out there that that could have helped us through. So we wouldn't have to go through the noncompete kind of struggles that we did. But in our area, that wasn't an option. But the pain we went through, again, we learned so much through that. But ultimately, it was worth it. Because we would not be happy if we were still where we were. And the biggest part is figuring out like, look, what do I want my career to be? Because I wholeheartedly believe that, you know, our working career is long in one ways, but it's extremely short in the other in another. And we spend so much time at work, we need to be pursuing something that that genuinely makes us happy and makes us fulfilled. And I see so many ortho reps out there that are frustrated, but they have the handcuffs, because what am I going to do, you know, I have a non compete, or, you know, maybe I don't have any influence with my surgeons, they won't, they won't listen to me, they won't do that. And I don't mean to sound harsh with this. But just understanding which camp you are, if you have influence, and people would listen to you and value you, in your opinion and consider other things with you. You need to know if you have that, or you need to know if they view you as a as their, you know, whatever company rep that I call that I may be friends with you, but I'm a work friend, I'm a friend, because I use I use your product. Right. And, you know, it can be a, it can be a hard thing to handle, if you find out that you are just viewed by them as a as just the rep. But at the same time, it's important to understand that. Because if you understand that you're viewed as just a rep, you still have the opportunity to okay, how am I going to reinvent my career from the standpoint of how people perceive me? By becoming better at what I do. Yeah, and then maybe you can work your way to that. That other side where you know what, maybe they can't do it without you anymore. And they want you to be involved. And then you you know, you can work your way to influence but understanding where you are and where you want to go. Once you know those two places, you can form a plan to get there.

Claire Davis 37:45

Yeah, I personally feel at this stage in the game, that when you do find out that, hey, maybe you're not the one they were ushering into the office despite the COVID warnings, right? Maybe you were the one that they were. But if not, if you find out that maybe you don't have that power of influence yet, what an opportunity. Because now you know what to work on or now you know, you can identify something that you want to change and then proactively work on it. I've personally prefer that to being able to open doors, but not quite understand why. So sometimes I think that the challenge really does burn down any kind of mystery and help us to understand what we can work on. So really, I really liked that. Yes, do one thing you mentioned in a recent post that I wanted to ask you was You talk a lot about the team and building a team around you. So can you explain a little bit for everybody listening here, what you mean by a team, how you assemble it and what you're doing with those people?

Stu Brandon 38:55

Yeah, so let's just look at it this way is what what we have done is we have created also a platform where if there is a frustrated rep out there that has some influence that a surgeon would be willing to look at something, we have the ability to help them through their noncompete join our organization, don't sign a non compete, you know, we can help you through the not through your non compete in your life. You know, after a year, 18 months, whatever that is, we'll be better than it is now. Then you can also pick up other products to help, you know, round out what it is that you want in your product portfolio, and what you want and in your geography, because I can tell you where I live in Northwest Illinois. I love what I do up here. But the products that I represent for my core surgeons that I've had for a long time aren't necessarily what surgeons would like in the city of Chicago, or aren't necessarily what surgeons would like, you know I'm in Indiana or you know, just go go anywhere. And, and so there are things that we, that we sell and provide our surgeons here, that in other areas that we go, we don't, because they're not interested in them. And that's okay. And that's part of having kind of a team of companies that we work with. But also, the team have of going back to the rep is having a team that he can come join, help walk them through that to get them, get them past that to get him through, or not have to deal with a non compete in the same way that we did. And then on that, again, we mentioned earlier, you know, life is too short to be dealing with people that you don't know, like, and trust. Yeah. And for us, you know, myself and my two business partners, we thoroughly enjoy working with each other. But, but just as important as that is that my strengths are not strengths of my two business partners, where they have strengths that are totally my weaknesses. So figuring out teams that complement each other as well is extremely important. Because not everybody, excuse me, if we are all the same person, you know, we're all the same person, we can only do the same type of things. Where if we're, if we're complementary, we can go so much farther, we can, you know, have a much bigger impact, not only on our professional careers, but on other people's careers as well. And that, and that's part of what we're trying to do, too, is is help frustrated people create the career that they want in our business. And hopefully, some of those will end up working with us. But if they don't, that's okay. I want to use my life experiences to help them because you know what? It's, I don't want anybody to go through what I went through.

Claire Davis 42:17

I hear you, I hear Yeah. Well, I think that it's a special calling that you have to help people figure out what possibilities lay in store for them and their life and career. And in an industry that's one so competitive that it can make you put blinders on sometimes to this. And to that is a huge sacrifice for many, whether you're a provider, or you're in the field that you're taking, call this support your physicians. So I love what you all are doing.

Stu Brandon 42:47

Can I Can I add one more? One more thing here? Yes, I just got back from caucus and I was with, with a surgeon there and another rep that I had known a long time. And I've had this conversation with several people lately. And I made the observation to them, I said, we come to industry meetings like this, and our surgeons are all learning from each other, they are collaborating, they are learning best practices, they're learning, you know, the ways to deal economically with their insurance providers with CMS. I mean, they're just learning new techniques. They're sharing all of this with each other. And if you think about it, they are all technically competitors with each other. But yet they are open and free and sharing this collaborating with each other. And I said, Look at industry, we don't collaborate anything. And I think that that is part of the thing that I am learning more and more and more is that I do think the future of it on the industry side is collaboration with other people as well. And obviously everything has to be aboveboard. But understanding that truly there is enough business for everybody to go around. And you know, what I said earlier about referring cases to other people or referring doctors, hey, go go talk with him and his company has a great solution for that. But even partnering with each other, you know, to be able to provide a bigger bag of of products that you can take and show people I mean I think that that just just helps everybody and it is interesting to me. Friend of mine was talking with a higher up from one a large companies I won't mention which one but he made mention of why would I want to help another company? We are trying to squash our competition. And how can our industry survive and thrive if we have our physician customers do Totally collaborating with each other. But then as industry, we're just trying to squash each other.

Claire Davis 45:07

Yeah. Yep. It doesn't seem like it works, right? Correct. It's, I love that you bring that up, there was a woman who I worked with closely in LA when we were selling women's diagnostic oncology tests. And every time we would walk into the hospital, and I was shadowing and absorbing, like a sponge, she would walk in, and she didn't know, just the physicians and the staff name. She knew every single competing reps, name, kids names, practically birthdays, certainly products, and favorite places to grab lunch in between cases. And she did exactly what you said, she sent cases to the competitor when appropriate, right, she made friends with those people. And that kind of art of detachment. And collaboration is so critical, she was incredibly successful wherever she went. And in her case, I know just one of the reasons she was, is because you never know who you're going to work for and with in the future. So if you if the rising tide lifts all ships, and you're the one, creating this momentum of support, and help and promotion for people all over the place, it's reciprocal in nature. And anyway, she's off doing amazing things again, but I never forgot it. Because when I came in and training told me in an earlier position, yeah, you know, you see pamphlets from our competitors, go ahead and just tip those in the garbage can. That wasn't her way at all. She She taught me to place them back on the desk and put them in front of ours, you know, and, and make everything look great. Because at the end it at the end, if we really think about what is the whole point of this? Why are we even in this industry? It's because eventually it's going to be our friend, or our family member, or our mother or our selves on the table. And so why would we operate in any other way than trying to do it the very best and support other people also trying to do their very best. So I think that collaboration idea is absolutely untapped and brilliant, Yeah,

Stu Brandon 47:39

Yeah 100% agree with that. And ultimately, what better way to to gain the respect of our potential customers, if we can, if we can speak and speak well of other products, because we all know salespeople who just pound their product, their product, their product, without understanding the good things about other other products? Yeah. And just, I think the earning the respect from them and being able to talk openly and say, Look, they've got great products, or whatever it is, and speak intelligently towards that about it. And understand that it's not malpractice, if they're not using your products.

Claire Davis 48:27

Yep. All right, you're not the only one. Correct, you know, it's like going to it's like a it's like anything, if you want to build trust, you know, authenticity, honesty, it can be felt, and it's trusted. So I really like that. So if someone is as lit up about what you're doing, as I am, Stu, where do they find out more? And how do they connect with you?

Stu Brandon 48:49

I would say that the best way to do it is to just search to Brandon and LinkedIn and DM me. We do have WW dot rep freedom.com. You can go there and click a link but I would say the quickest way to get get to me as DM me on LinkedIn.

Claire Davis 49:09

Awesome. Thank you so much. Thank you for everything you shared today. And for everybody listening. Thank you for tuning in. If you are interested in that kind of freedom with your career and your life, do yourself a favor and connect with Steve today. Go check out what he's doing on LinkedIn. But until next time, thank you so much for joining us on today's medical sales leader and we'll see you next time with more modern tips.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

How to Stand Out From the Crowd

AI-Generated Transcript below. There may be errors.

Claire Davis 0:00

welcome to another episode of today's medical sales leader, a show where we talk all about the modern methods of mastering medical sales. Because if you're still doing medical sales like you were 12 years ago, you're still doing medical sales like you were 12 years ago. And today, I have a really wonderful guest. His name is Chris Bogue, and he's one of my favorite people, when it comes to what we're going to talk about today, which is about performing well, and really reaching your customers and building those relationships on video. So if you've ever wondered, thought about the nervous about selling on video, Chris is the man. And so today he's going to share with us some of his best tips, we're going to talk a little bit about the course hopefully, that he just launched, and how you can gain access to those hard to reach untouchable customers by using your phone and video. So Chris, thank you so much for joining me on the show today. I'm so excited to have you here.

Chris Bogue 1:14

I'm so excited to be here, Claire.

Claire Davis 1:16

So let's start with sort of the origination of how you got in this business. Because I think that for a lot of us who are still in the generation of we grew up with a time where technology and video wasn't really a thing yet. And now it's something that we use every single day. It's a huge transition for the majority of people who are in medical sales, in management roles and up and even in, you know, if you've been in the industry for 10 years, you know, video is now here to stay. And so I'd love to hear what really drew you to using video in a business sense. Why did you start using it for sales in the first place?

Chris Bogue 1:58

Yeah, so great question. I got on video pretty much by accident, I did not plan to do this. I was selling education technology at the time to universities. So universities, they are sprawling bureaucracies, each with their own, you know, history. And they're they're complicated organizations to sell into. There's a tenure track, you know, the people at the top of the chain, say what goes a little trick about education. The longer someone's title is, the less important they are. If you see somebody who's like, specialist for the blob of books, they're they're not as important as the person whose name is just professor. If the professors don't like you, you're pretty much doomed. And as a seller, that's rough, because it's a profession where they're not changing decision makers a lot, you're not going to be lucky and they're all of a sudden going to replace their top professor, now you got a fresh shot. But that person doesn't like you, or they don't trust your company, or they're not answering your phone calls or emails. You're kind of behind the eight ball. And it's a difficult sale, because these are large institutions that are not designed to change quickly. And even worse, at the time when I was doing it, it was right before COVID happened, you know, so I was used to the three main methods to reach my prospects were the phone, calling their office, you know, visiting them on campus, or visiting them at an educational conference. All of a sudden, all our conferences were canceled, our flights were canceled. You cannot go visit them on campus anymore. And guess what? They're working from home. So nobody's there answering phones in the office anymore. Yeah. On top of that, you know, it's like I had small territory small lead list, you did not have a lot of people to reach out to. So I had to get inventive. And I found the solution. And this was just getting on video. And it's this really weird democratizing thing where everybody has this incredibly sophisticated camera on them. Right now we all own, like even an iPhone seven, will give you incredibly professional looking camera quality. But nobody ever figured out how to do this for sales yet. You know, like, it's not something they teach you in business school. It's not something that MBAs learn. So I just started experimenting with it. You know, I started getting on camera. I started coaching others to get on camera. I had a diverse group of people working with me, so I had, you know, different account managers, different backgrounds, you know, and I discovered that it was like, Oh, actually, it's very effective to just jump on camera for 30 seconds, and talk directly to the prospect and all of a sudden, I was getting meetings with all these people who had been ignoring us for years. And I realized like, oh, wow, it is this really powerful way to like, just humanize yourself. You know, people don't trust institutions, they don't trust celebrities, they certainly don't trust advertisers and marketers, but they trust the people they interact with on their phone, you know, this is the screen where they interact with their children and their spouses. And this is where they go, and they spend too much time watching Netflix. And all of a sudden, if you're a face, on their screen, and you're talking about the things they care about, you know, you just become part of their consciousness. And then when you pick up the phone and call them, now, you're not this pushy salesperson who's trying to steal their time, you're that person who made them think, you know, because you got in there. And, again, nobody knows how to do this yet, because there's nobody who's explaining how to do it, except me. So great. I'll teach everybody to do this. Now.

Claire Davis 6:15

I was I'm so glad you are, it's your video, to me feels like the great equalizer, because it doesn't matter if you have a C on your title doesn't matter if you're new to the workforce, or if you're not working in the workforce, it is so awkward, and makes you feel very vulnerable in the beginning. And I remember somebody telling me long time ago, because now I do a lot of video for work. And I never thought that that would be reachable on a regular basis. And I remember somebody telling me, the only way to get comfortable on video is getting the reps in. So it gives me hope, because I feel that's very similar with selling in general, in a different way. It's one of those things that you've got to practice and you've got to flub every once in a while, and you've got to make the mistakes, so you fix them. So, you know, what are some of the things if you were to say, okay, you know, if you're just brave enough to try video this week, what are some of the things that you see people doing that they shouldn't? Or some things that you see that people should do?

Chris Bogue 7:21

Yeah, so this is a great question, because I take issue with a lot of the video training that I see out there for sellers, it is my personal belief, as someone who trains people on this, that we get too obsessed with needing to show the prospect something where you see a lot of people doing is, you know, a lot of these, these video programs have like a screenshare option. So what people will do is, they will make themselves very small, they're like a little corner of the screen and a little circle. And they're showing you their app. And they're like, hey, Claire, here's my app, it does this, and it does this, and you could use it to do this. And you could use it to do that. And then people watch 10% of the video and don't respond, and the sellers go, Gee, I don't think video works. And, you know, it's like, it almost sounds too obvious. So I don't want to like insult anybody here. But I'm sitting here being like, Okay, you sent that person a product demo. But they didn't ask for a product demo, you know. And then you're in this unfortunate situation where you've got the prospects attention, maybe this is the only chance you have to break through in there. But you're just describing something they could have seen on your website. And the person watches for 10 seconds goes, Okay, salesperson selling me something, I don't need to watch this. Yeah, what I suggest sellers do is you're sending, you know, a 32nd video about your prospect. And you always want to deliver it to the person, you know, I am talking to Claire, I'm sending a video to Claire, I start I say, hey, Claire, here's why I'm reaching out to you. And I usually start by talking about a person's goals or that person's values. These are usually pretty easy to find. These are things you can find in mission statements in press releases. You know, organizations like to be upfront with what their values are. So that's almost always where I start from, say, I know you value this. And I see a lot of alignment. This is what I value as well. And I know this is your goal as an organization. And here's this elephant in the room problem that I help people with. And I'd like to have a conversation with you about that. You know, and I'm not sitting here showing my product. I'm not explaining everything I do. I'm being interested in them. I'm noticing them the way they want to be known First, and then I'm making it easy to meet with me. And I'm building a little bit of curiosity, you know, because once you actually get that sales meeting, you get all these extra powers, you know, you have the power to show them data, you have the power to demonstrate the product, you have a power to ask them questions that are typically inappropriate. You can ask them about budgets, you can ask them about course corrections and mistakes that they've made. But you can't do that until they let you in the door. First. There's a term I really liked from Nick thicket, where he calls it the vampire Sales Rule. It's just like a vampire. They have to let you in before you can do anything, you know. Yeah, like that. So it's like, yeah, it's a video about them. And 99% of people sending videos in sales are not doing that. You know, it is, it is such a simple thing to be interested in the other person. And especially when you're talking about medical sales, or you again, I was in university sales. So most of these people had PhDs. Yeah. And the seller tells themselves, you know, what, I don't have a PhD. So what can I possibly offer this person? You know, why would they ever want to talk to someone like me, and like, you have to realize, when you're reaching out to a person who's educated, or affluent, or whatever, they don't necessarily see themselves that way. You know, they're thinking about how they have to sell their summer home, because it was a bad investment, you know, and they're thinking about this new process that they rolled out, that's not working the way they wanted it to, you know, and they've got these frustrations, their spouse isn't listening to them. Whatever it may be, if you show up as a person who's open and attentive, all they see as possibility in you, you know, and if you do your homework, and you're talking about what they actually care about, they're not going to go google how educated you are. They're like, Oh, wow, this, this person is actually talking about the things that I care about, you know, and then you call them, you email him, you knock their door, whatever, they're not going to slam the door in your face and be rude about it. Like, even if it's not a great time, even if it's not what they're looking for right now. Usually the let you know, you know, and that's what happens. Sales is like, okay, you know, you're it's not the right time right now. Well, when is the right time? When do you evaluate decisions like this? When do you talk to vendors? Let's get that process started the right way, you know, and, again, I found it's just this this shortcut, where it's like, you need to build credibility. There's nothing that builds credibility faster than looking someone in the eye, even virtually, and showing you showing them that you know, something about that.

Claire Davis 12:55

Brilliant point, you're looking somebody in the eye, and you're skipping those levels of trust building, right? I mean, instead of it taking for emails or for random, you know, times of bumping into each other, getting to be with someone, like you said, on the device, we're holding 90% of our day, for everything else is, but is bonding, I think, and it's what I like about the way that you teach this. And the way that you talk about doing sales in general is that there's a lot of sales theory out there. And there's a lot of tactics where we're trying to slyly say something, but not really. And we're trying to sell but pretend we're not salespeople. And I think that that really just becomes sort of a vicious cycle, where people who are in sales can feel bad about what they're doing. And it's a shame, because in this case for a lot of people who are listening to the show right now, and thank you for doing so, you know, we're in medical sales, that means that, you know, in 1015 years when I need a hip replacement, those doctors should the medical sales people perform well will have the most modern technology, my grandmother will get the best care if she needs to go in and have her lungs with a get an MRI. So it's it's a valiant thing to be in sales. And I think that the way that you go about it with being very straightforward with the elephant in the room, let's talk about what your goals are. And I see this problem happening in the industry doesn't make sense to chat further. really takes the pressure off of feeling salesy or pushing, because it's just having a real conversation and a next to normal way, right. It's next to being in a coffee shop with them when you're on video.

Chris Bogue 14:54

Yeah, you have to own it and so much of sales training Something that I disagree with is about like evasiveness like, Oh, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna tell you what I'm doing until you set this meeting with me. And again, you're dealing with doctors, you're dealing with medical professionals, like, when they're telling you that they're busy, they're not lying. You know, I've always learned, it's like, if somebody tells you, it's a bad time believe that. I feel like so much of traditional sales tactics are like you're trying to outwit the buyer. Yeah, the buyers are smart. You know, they know what that means. They know, you're asking, Oh, how about seven minutes on the calendar, they know, you're going to take more than seven minutes, you know, and in the case of enterprise sales, you know, so if you're an enterprise seller, you have to worry, if you step out of line, you might get blacklisted. You know, if you're trying to sell to a big organization like Microsoft, and you're not on their approved vendors list, you get on the blacklist, all of a sudden, that company you work for is not allowed to sell to them anymore, you're probably going to get fired, you know. So all these salespeople are trying to figure out how to like, be sly, and be coy, and how to talk your way around these people. Where I suggest again, one you get, you spend a couple minutes on their mission statement, and you see what they value. And then you find the person to go to and you make a video being like, look, I'm reaching out to you, because I want to start this process. I want to get this started, right? I know you've valued this, I know, this is where you're taking the organization. And someday I'd like to be able to speak with you about that. So I'm reaching out to formally request information about your vendor list and what I can do, you know, to build that trust with you. And again, I am not trying to outwit them, I'm just coming out here, but I'm owning it, you know, and I'm, I'm showing them that respect, and I'm being like, hey, I don't want to do this wrong, but I think I have something to offer you, you know, I think I can help you get to where you're going. So yeah, please respond to this, I'd love to hear we can go from there, you know, and the buyer is in control. This is the thing we we constantly see this drive sales leaders nuts, because sometimes the buyer is just like, I want a demo. And they're like, Well, we're gonna have an SDR qualify you. And it's like, the buyer is in control they're gonna buy when they want to buy, as a salesperson, you need to be in control of the few things you can control. And one of those is your first impression. You know, are you going to come? Are you going to interrupt them in the middle of dinner? And they say, No, I'm not interested. You'd be like, Oh, can I just have somebody? Is that? Is that really how you want your first interaction to be then pushing you off? And you desperately trying not to let them shut the door on you? Or do you want to show up as the most confident, relaxed, relevant, interested and helpful version of yourself that you can be? Because there's a chance that person isn't ready to buy, you know, but if you send that video, let's say they don't even respond to it, you send that video, you're like, Hey, I'm Claire, I want to do this right away. I want to get, you know, on your process, as you're figuring out your information about your process a couple months later, if they are talking to vendors, and you get back in touch with them. And they go look at Claire, what was the last thing she sent me? Oh, was it a pushy? You know, misleading email where she wasn't being upfront with their intentions? Or is this an intelligent, respectful person who took the time to actually reach out to me, you know, I have all the time, people will ignore my videos. And then eight months later, they watch it, you know, and I can pick it right up, because I almost always have the same call to action, I end the video and I say, if you're interested in chatting with me, respond to this message with anything. If you send me a thumbs up emoji, I can send you some available time. So you could choose one that's convenient for you. And if this is not in your wheelhouse, just let me know. I will you know, I won't contact you this way anymore. I don't take it personally, let me know. And no matter what you decide, I appreciate you watching the video. You know, the beauty of that is three months later, they send me a thumbs up. I send them some times we're back off to the races. But salespeople will tell you to do all these ridiculous things to like send a breakup email, send an email being like, I reached out to you six times. Yeah, I guess I'm gonna have to go away forever. Right? Like, they don't believe that and they didn't want to meet with you in the first place. And now the very worst part is if they change their mind, and they decide they actually do want to meet with you now you made it awkward. Now you did this, oh, I guess I'm gonna walk away forever. You know, whereas I really leave it open. I'm just kind of opening the door and saying like, Hey, I think I might have something you're interested in checking it out. I'm interested in you. You know, and it's like my job as a seller is not to sell everybody at all times. It's to open Then the door of communication and keep it open. Because when they are talking to vendors when they are talking to, you know, like they are seeking out what I'm selling, I want the chance to speak to them, I want to be invited into the room. And it's a long game, anybody who's done sales knows you're you're playing the long game, you know, what you never want to do, though, is break that trust and get them to shut the door. Because now you're backwards, now you're, you're at less than zero, you're gonna need to pull a rabbit out of a hat and work really hard. Just to get back to zero just to get be a person that they're not actively rejecting every time they see your name pop up.

Claire Davis 20:41

You know, for those listening, and they're thinking, Okay, I'll try. I'll try it. What are some things not to do?

Chris Bogue 20:49

I say start small. Sometimes people are like, Oh, I'm gonna go send 100 videos. Well, that's hard. You know.

Claire Davis 20:58

So you'll be exhausted.

Chris Bogue 21:00

Yeah, I recommend like, I spend more time making the list than I do filming the videos. My videos are very short. Sometimes I'm sending 15/32 videos, but I'll make a list where it's like, it's a similar buyer type, similar buyer persona, maybe it's similar size business, you know, maybe they're managing a budget around the same size. Maybe it's my territory, maybe I'm going after all, you know, hospitals in one state. Whatever it is, I'm going to try to get five of these filmed in one sitting. You know, I say beginner mode is three, you know, but I always start and it's like, let's just get five out, back to back to back, you know, and then send them out and see how it does. And I say Junko for your top accounts. First, you know, I have a classification system. For my leads. It's either green, yellow, or red. Green is someone who has a greater than 50% chance of speaking with me. Maybe I'm already working with a colleague of theirs. You know, maybe we already had some pleasantry some pleasant exchange in the past, you know, maybe they bought from me in the past, whatever they're Greenly, they're more more than 50%. Likely, a yellow lead is total coin flip. I have no idea. I know, they fit my ICP, I know that I know, they would be good for my product. They've not signaled to me one way or another. And then there's the red leaves, which are the people that have already told me now said less than 50% chance. So a lot of sales leaders will tell you oh, they're ignoring you and hanging up on you go send him a video. I don't do that. You know, the, that bucket might get put into a more kind of general kind of outrage. But it's like, if I'm going after my VIP is I want a mix of green and yellow. You know, it's like, okay, this person has a greater than 50% chance, well, then why aren't they talking to me already? You know, what do I gotta do to get them into the pipeline? And then yellow? Yeah, you want to see how your message plays with people that don't have any particular predisposition for you. And you know, I do recommend I have a course about this, I do recommend DON'T GO video. Immediately. I usually like there's a number of techniques you can do if they're on LinkedIn, I connect with them on LinkedIn, you can interact with a person's content. You know, sometimes it's like, I've met them in person before. But it's like, yeah, I have some some little touch point beforehand. And then yeah, send out five videos and see how they perform. And, you know, this isn't, it's an interesting thing, because there's no magic words. You know, I always say, What I mostly teach is like, how do you talk to the camera? You know, do you speak to the camera like an equal? And it takes practice, you know, and I've had coaching clients where we're doing one on one stuff, and again, I get them to come up with the list and like, tell me the name. Okay, this is Dr. Jones. All right. I'm going to turn off the camera right now, you're not going to see me, but I'm going to start 60 seconds. And just talk to Dr. Jones. What would you say if she was in the room with you right now? You know, and always the same thing happens, they do their first take, and I stop and I'm a coach. So the first question I get is, what did you feel about that? How do you feel about that performance? What do you think happened in there, and then I give my perspective, but usually what happens is they turn on the camera, and they talk about themselves for 60 seconds, you know, and they talk about their product. They talk about how much money they see they save or whatever, and I go okay, let's try it again. I want you to focus exclusively on Dr. Jones. You're talking about her, you know, and again, I try to like actually imagine that person sitting in the room with me. And I always tell them like, pretend you are in their home drinking coffee. coffee with them. Yeah, because you are like, there's a high likelihood as person is sitting in pajama pants. Right now, you know. So the idea is you want to simulate just one on one human conversation. And yeah, this sounds so obvious as the words are coming out of my mouth. But I really, if you watch how sales trainers teach, they're teaching you to do a presentation, you know, teaching you to be big on stage and be loud. So you can hit the people in the back of the room. And like gang, these microphones that we have, are so sensitive, you know, and still yell into them. No, you don't need to. And if you're a warm personality, HD cameras pick up on all these subtle movements of the eyes. You know, and if you're a caring person, if you're a person with high emotional intelligence, which is what most people in sales are, you know, if you're, if you're good at sales, it's because you're good at talking to people, you're good at listening, you're good at reading cues, you know, we say attentiveness, is the hallmark of quality, you know, you pay for a coach, you pay for a trainer, you go to a fine dining restaurant, you know, you are paying for someone to give you their full attention. And when you are giving your full attention to the camera, that's powerful. You know, you don't even have to be saying anything, I'm just sitting there, just looking fully at you. And I'm talking about you, I'm giving you so much more than 99% of the people in your life give you including, possibly your friends and family. You know, true, yeah, oh, this the thing is like these, these brilliant people, these doctors, who are saving lives, who are you know, they're working very hard on things that only a very small percentage of people can understand. And they're carrying all this stress around, they go home and their spouse is like, Honey, I can't listen, you talk about work, like we're gonna, we're gonna watch Paw Patrol with the kids, you know, and then we're gonna go on a walk, and try to talk about anything other than work for 10 seconds, you know, but these are the things that's on that person's mind. And when you give them an opportunity to talk about what's on their mind, you know, that's, that's not what they usually get. People are asking them for their effort, and their time and their emotion and all this. And it's like, yeah, I'm showing up just interested in them. I noticed them. And, you know, I know I'm rambling now, but it's like, you know, I would be mentoring young people, you know, and young people would would ask me, you know, I had a very talented account manager, she's in her early 20s. She's like, 23. And she's like, What am I supposed to say to these people? These are PhDs, you know, it's my first job ever, I just graduated college. And like, you gotta realize they're not looking at you that way. You know, they're looking at their divorce, and, you know, bad investments and all this stuff, and they see you. And they're like, look at this young woman with her whole life ahead of her. Yeah, you know, look at her working for this tech company. Like she's so put together, she's so like, I would love to be her. I've got all these responsibilities right now. This, this woman, this young woman seems pretty on the ball, you know, and again, it's not because you're sitting there explaining all these things that you can teach them, it's like, you notice that you notice them, and you're interested in them. And you're helpful, and you're professional, you know, that's what they're going to notice about you. And, you know, half of that is just because you're looking at the lens, this is this is going to you what you're asking earlier about, like what's the thing that people do wrong? They look at their appearance on screen, when really you should be looking at the lens. Yeah, if you're looking at yourself, you're gonna get self conscious, you're gonna get distracted your eyes get these little micro movements, because you're, you're looking very subtly back and forth at different things. And, you know, if you're looking straight at the lens, you just look so confident. And yeah, you know, you're selling the conversation, not the product, you know, you're an interested professional person who's interested in chatting with them. And that's what this is, you know, it's like once you get the green light once they let you in, once you get your presentation, yeah, go nuts. Go do your homework, go get your case studies, you know, go run the numbers go go make that business case. But right now, you're you're trying to you got to have some sort of human spark in there before they they let you anywhere near their budget.

Claire Davis 29:51

Yeah. And, you know, I think that in the last couple years, obviously, when we were all separated from each other and In one way or another, we lost a lot of closeness with people. There's an incredible difference in the way that many and most of us go to work virtually now. And so it's a natural adaptation of the in office environment to interact over the screen. But it's still has a range of ways that can be done. Well. There's ways that yes, it can be done. But creating, I like how you share how to create that very warm, very client focused very, you know, humanized way of coming across on the camera. And what's interesting to me, is that a few years ago, if you'd asked me if I'd ever jumped on a camera, the answer would have been absolutely not. But my family and I ended up moving right before the pandemic. So not only were we locked away like everybody else, but we weren't anywhere near family anymore, we moved two months before the lockdown. So video really did become the way that we related to our family and friends. And I don't know if it weren't for getting those reps in, if I would have kept doing it, and then eventually did it for business. But I was surprised at every time I would send a video message eventually to a client, almost always, they would say, Wow, I've never received a video before. This is so cool. How do you do that? And what that tells me is that at least in healthcare, at least in the medical side of things, medical sales, specifically that learning to do this, well will make you an absolutely outlier. It will make you an outlier in this business. There are other industries that have gravitated toward video more rapidly. Healthcare is not one of them.

Chris Bogue 31:50

Well, actually, I'm going to push back on you there. Because I've actually been doing a little research this week. That is very surprising to me. So I've been reaching out to hundreds of account executives and STRS this week, and I've been asking them two questions. Okay, so one, does your organization use video in their outbound sales, and to how many videos each week is the average rep making? The numbers are very surprising to me. Most organizations are sending fewer than three videos per week per rep. Like, that's the like, the ones who are the average sales rep is probably not even sending five videos every month, you know, it and I was kind of blown away by this. But the more I'm talking to them, the more it seems like what happened was 2021 happened. Everybody went remote. Everybody had these video solutions that COVID was very good to the video companies, some of whom I love and use and indoors. And then they just kind of stopped. They tried it for a couple months. And then they stopped and as a coach, and you know, I can say this. It's because they're bad at it. Like,

Claire Davis 33:04

what happened is we love you anyway.

Chris Bogue 33:07

We love, you gotta learn but no, and it's not even their fault. You know, um, you look at some of these people who are really killing it, who are at the top of their sales game, who could run a presentation with anybody cold call anybody cold email, anybody and perform above average. Ask them if they learned that in a month. I guarantee you they did. You know, they tried a completely new type of sales outreach, with no coaching, no playbooks, no guidance, and they gave up because they made 10 videos and it didn't succeed, you know? And I tell them, I'm like you would never ever in a million years, let an SDR tell you, Hey, I made 10 cold calls and didn't get through. I guess cold calling doesn't work, you know, you would tell them right? Well make cold, cold, cold, more cold calls, or let me help you make better cold calls, you know, um, and it's like, yeah, actually what I'm discovering and this was my hunch all along. What I'm discovering is every sales team has a Video Star, and it's often not the top closer on the team. The person who is the top cold caller and cold emailer is usually not the best person on video. And I say good listeners are good on video that empathy shines through. Or if you get performers, people who were actors, people who were dancers, you know, artists, that person who is good at connecting with an audience. They've got different skills that actually translate really well on video. So yeah, in most industries, sellers are not doing video you will stand out you will be different and if you really want to stand out and be among the top one The percent of elite video sellers, yes, you'll do what I do, which is what nobody else does. And you'll caption your videos. Ah, that is my secret sauce to again, I, we talked earlier about the sales reps who just send the product demo, and they're just describing what's on screen. They're not using captions, my videos are me sitting here just like this, calmly, professionally speaking to the audience, but the captions are burned into the video file. So you can read the captions as you're watching the video. And I say, you know, this is what I call the Uber test. Right? So imagine you're trying to sell to a medical professional. And they're riding in the backseat of an Uber to an airport. And they get two videos in their inbox. One is a five minute product demo with no captions. And the other is a 32nd video from me. And you can see in the preview that the captions are burned down to the screen. And it says, Hey, Claire, one thing I wanted to add, you know, the message cuts off. Which one do you think they're gonna watch? Are they going to take out their air buds? So they can watch your five minute presentation? Or are they going to check out this short video because they can read it and they can watch with the sound off, you know, and I'm like, You don't understand, like, sometimes they want to watch the video. And it's just not convenient, you know, they can't do it. Or you think of like a parent, you know, you've got like a sleeping baby, you know, on your knee and you're sitting there scrolling through because you don't want to wake the baby up. And there's the video there. It's like, are you going to softly turn on the sound? Are you again? Are you going to fish out your headphones? Or are you going to ignore it? You know, and I'm not an accessibility expert. I kinda, that's another thing I kind of accidentally, like, I get a lot of clients from the accessibility world, which is another one that's famous for being a really technical. You know, it's firmly like in the DEI space, so it's started this very serious and important topic for very serious and important people. And yeah, the more I started, just kept getting my stuff, the more I got all these deaf fans, because they're like, oh, wow, most of the content we see on LinkedIn doesn't have captions. You know, if somebody's sending them a prospecting video, it doesn't have captions, they got to try to lip read. And the more I do this, the more I was severely underestimating how many people suffer from hearing loss. You know, it's a pretty sizable part of the country. And once I learned that, I'm like, oh, yeah, you know, my dad uses a hearing aid. You know, I didn't even think about that. But again, it's like you send a video to him, it's after hours, when he's looking at it. He's not going to be able to hear it unless he goes gets his hearing aid in, that's too much work to ask of him, you know, and I tell people, and they're like, Well, I don't have time to caption my videos, I go, Okay, well, your time to send that five minute screenshare. You know, you did all the work to get that video out there. There are free programs like cap cut, which is a popular editing program for the iPhone for phones. So people edit a lot of their tick tock videos, that has auto captions built into their like, literally, you press the auto transcribe button, and then you go through and you fix the typos, you know, you just fix you capitalize the names, you fix the spelling, and it takes you two minutes. And again, they're not going to be getting a sales video. But if they are getting a sales video, it's probably doesn't have captions. So you show up, you're relevant, you're looking professional, you're well framed, and it's got the words on the screen. So it's a reading experience, while it's a watching experience. And while it's an auditory experience, you're getting that message to them on all levels. And, you know, again, I'm like that that, that Uber ride might have been your one chance, you know, you had them there, they were there, they were looking through their inbox. If you delivered a 32nd message in the way that was most convenient for them to consume it, they would have watched 100% of it. Like you'd be in you got into their head, you got into their consciousness, you've established yourself as a relevant person. But, you know, most people don't take the time to do that. They send off the same generic email that they sent to 100 people and they're like, Wow, I got three responses to them or take me off your list. But hey, maybe there's one person. And again, is that is that really the first impression you want?

Claire Davis 39:34

Right? And because it's documented, it'll be the last impression as well. Right? So like you were saying before, if we've all had those opportunities presented to us in the DMS or in our email, and it just wasn't the right time. And then six months later, you think Oh, yeah, that one he was talking about leads let me go back and look, and it can, it can either be your best salesperson And right there, your videos your best salesperson 24/7 or something. That's maybe what everybody else is saying, too. I think that's what, what strikes me so, so much about video is that we have, we have mastered and tweaked and found all the different ways that we can write something right there. There's so many brilliant ways brilliant ways of persuasion in writing. But video is still largely unknown. For most people, most people haven't tried it. So even just getting those early reps in giving it a shot, focusing on your customer like Christmas sharing, is really going to help to make you stand out, even if it's not perfect. But the more that you try it, it seems like it will it comes, you know, yeah, it gets more comfortable.

Chris Bogue 40:51

Yeah, go the next time you're scrolling through Facebook, or Instagram or your newsfeed. Watch how many giant brands have ads, where they're just like, whoa, hey, we're all just hanging out here at the end. Like they're trying to look like a regular person. Because that's what people trust, right? You don't trust the media, they don't trust politicians. They don't trust institutions. Sometimes it would be nice if they trusted experts more, but they don't. And they trust the people they interact with on a daily basis. And if you're here, during that circle of people, you know,

Claire Davis 41:31

it doesn't go Go ahead. So I think something you mentioned to me that that really struck home the other day when we were chatting was when you said there's only one screen, right? I mean, we've got one phone that we're looking at, and it's a few inches across and a few inches high. And we're all competing for the exact same screen with whomever is holding that phone, whether it's sales, entertainment, infotainment, pictures of their kids, the weather, whatever it is, it's all right here. It's that's it. And so when you have the chance to get on someone's screen, that means you're doing it in place of all the other things right, and in a place where they're already so comfortable. So at that, I don't know why that just really sunk in for me the other day.

Chris Bogue 42:26

Thank you. Yeah, I'm glad it didn't. I mean, you're a great example of that, too. Because, you know, I know you mostly from your LinkedIn content, and it's very good. It's very good. I always look at you, you always, again, it looks more professional, than most of what I see on that platform. And a lot of it is just because like, you have a compelling personality, you're looking to the camera, and speaking with confidence. And it's like, you look like a person who knows what they're talking about. And it's funny, because a lot of the people you're selling to, might be more accomplished than us, but they're not as good at that. You know, and it was this irony, where it was like, I was speaking to these elite professors, sometimes at like Ivy League universities. And all of a sudden, they couldn't connect with their students anymore, you know, and their shot was a mess. And they're, you know, the camera angle was terrible. And the lighting was terrible, and they weren't looking in the right place. And it's like, okay, well, this person is smarter and wealthier and more well credentialed and connected than me. And audience wouldn't know that, you know, if they just saw the two of us, they'd be like, Oh, that guy must be the smart guy. Because look at our professionally looks, you know, I have a saxophone in my background. I'm not good at it. You know, but there are a million saxophone players who are amazing. And they never go out there on camera and play saxophone. So, who's the audience? Like, who are they going to think is the musician me? Who they can see has a saxophone, or that person who never puts themselves out there.

Claire Davis 44:09

I'm hoping that after this show, people think that I'm a real artist that's a brilliant point. I mean, you know, it's it's funny, I used to always joke with my co workers, they'd say, Claire, you're always wearing something to talk about. I'd always have like something where if you know, if I was carrying a bag, I would make it a college alumni alma mater bag or maybe my Chi Omega bag Oh Chi Omega. And, or I'd wear like shoes with like, I've got these ridiculous Uggs and they're been dazzled like crazy from when my girlfriend I thought that was a really great idea when we were Black Friday shopping a few years ago, but always something because I love starting conversations on a very, you know, low pressure Your level oh my gosh, I love your shoes or Hey, great Valerie year went to Ohio University. And so I feel like the way that you have your sex in the background is something so memorable. And it's always there. We can come to expect it. It's a great conversation piece. I think it's great. It's it's strategic to have it there.

Chris Bogue 45:19

You have you've stumbled upon some this is not an accident. Everything you see in my shot is designed for a prospect to be like, Oh, Chicago. Alright. Yeah, I'm in Chicago. Yeah. Oh, you're a Simpsons fan. Oh, you're a board game player. You know, like, I'm, the shot kind of tells a story before I've said anything, you know? And yeah, again, it's like, a lot of what you aren't saying is powerful, you know, and if you haven't, you should make a note, as you were talking, I was like, oh, Claire should really make a video about that. You should really have a video where you've got something attention grabbing on, you know, and like how you purposely like work conversation starters into there.

Claire Davis 46:07

That's a great idea,

Chris Bogue 46:08

I think of it is like I always said in sales. It's like purposely leaving a thread dangling out of your shirt. And I'm just waiting for a prospect to pull. And then it's like, yeah, you just let them Paul and Paul and Paul, you know, and the trick I always used to do back I don't cold call anymore. I you know, I did the video thing I went all in, I'm like, Alright, I'm the video guy. Not cold calling. I'm not cold emailing anymore on video. But my trick when I was cold calling was I would always talk about food. But I always talk about food. This actually is still works, if anybody's if any cold callers and are in the audience. Oftentimes, cold callers are trained to ask how do you been a popular cold caller? Question is, how have you been? Oftentimes people say, Oh, I'm fine. How have you been? And whenever anybody would ask me that I would always say something about food. I wouldn't say like back when I'd be in the office, I'd be like, You know what? Someone brought doughnuts in this morning. And I am trying to resist the break room. Oh, so you know. And, again, I've given them a point of view. And I'm just gonna see what they do with it, you know, or I'd be like, somebody would tell me, they'd be like, Oh, yeah. How's your morning, go? And I'd be like, you know, what? I Girl Scout cookies for breakfast? So that's my answer, you know, make of that what you will. And then sometimes they're like, Oh, I love the Thin Mints, you know, and now they're talking about their feelings about it. Or with the doughnuts example, it'd be like a turn on not eat those doughnuts. You know, you get the maybe somebody's struggling with their weight. And they're like, oh, gosh, me too. Or maybe they're a health nut. And they're like, You know what? Good for you. You can do it. You can like whatever it is. What I actually did was I just told them a little micro story that's five seconds long, and I got them to be on my side. We don't know where that story's going. We don't know. Am I gonna eat the doughnuts? Or am I not? But they've all of a sudden, they're kind of rooting for me. And I'm like, by the way, would you mind if I mentioned why I'm reaching out? You know, and what are they gonna do slam the phone and be like, No, it's like, they're like, sure.

Claire Davis 48:22

You don't not eating swindler? Yeah. Do you think that? Do you think that some of that strategy comes from your if you don't, if you haven't met Chris, and you're not following Him by now, make of note, do it immediately and come back to this conversation. But Chris has also got roots in comedy and improv. So do you feel like some of what you learned in in improv it helps humanize it and keep you to sticking to the real things that bind us like eating doughnuts or trying to avoid them.

Chris Bogue 48:59

Yeah. So improv is a huge part of what I do. And I'm nervous about bringing that up because I say improv. And people instantly think I want them to go be funny. And one thing I always say as an improv trainer, especially if I'm working with new improvisers, people have never done it before I do an exercise where I go, breathe in. Breathe out the need to be funny. We are not telling jokes out here. We are not I do not want you to tell me jokes. Because what happens with jokes is when you're like, Oh, I'm gonna tell you a funny joke. Yes, there's an inclination not to laugh at it, you know. And in improv, you don't tell jokes, you play games. And you're trying to find these moments where you and the other person are bouncing off of each other. And one thing they actually teach you in improv that I actually do in sales, which is again cutting against sales orthodoxy, is in improv they say don't ask questions. You're making a move. You're initiating a move You're not asking questions, when you ask a question. In improv, you're stealing information from your partner and you're forcing them to do something interesting, you're putting pressure on them, you know. So I'm always trying to find something where we're kind of like collaborating together. And the food is just an example of that, I made a very specific observation about a very specific thing that they're going to have an opinion about, because we all have to eat, you know, and now, no matter what they say, we're kind of playing off each other, you know? Yes. And that's even a thing to where it's like, you know, oftentimes, and especially in in, you know, medical sales or something, we're referrals are your best friends. You know, a lot of times I have a name drop, you know, and a lot of times, it's like, Hey, I'm actually reaching out to you, I wanted to talk to you about some of the work I've been doing with Dr. Davis, you know, over in this practice or something, especially if that's a name, I know, they're going to recognize, you know, I don't exactly know how they're going to react to that. But however they do react to that is going to tell me a lot, you know, and back when I was in higher education, technology, and I was getting all this training about like, oh, this challenger sale, you know, why don't you Why don't you go in there and show them you have all the secret knowledge that they don't know, about critical thinking, well, actually, what I do is I get them to tell me about critical thinking. I get them to tell me a story. You know, when I'm, when I'm like, when they're telling me about what they did today, like that's so important. And I actually usually, I try to get them to tell me about something that happened earlier today. I'm going to ask a question like, Oh, how'd your morning go? You know, because if I asked them questions, like, what are the three top priorities of your organization? You know, they've got the answer for that. They've got the answer for that already. So you know, like, one thing I would do when I was talking to college professors, I'd be like, I had class go today, and be like, alright, I'd say, Did you get any good questions? I'd stop. And they'd be like, you know why? I did get one question today. A student, they actually, they asked me, blah, blah, blah. And it's like, what I've actually done is I've made them the performer now, you know, they're telling me a story. And I can, I can bounce off them, I can play off of them. And, you know, improv is all about setting the other person up to look good. You know, it's all about can I put my partner in a situation where they look smart, where they look cool, or they look funny. You know, if I want to get on someone's side during a sale, I'm going to set them up so they get the hilarious line. Yeah, you know, if they're the one who gets the laugh, if they feel smart, and they feel validated, and they feel supported. Again, it's like that, that Maya Angelou quote, like, they won't remember what they said, but they'll remember how you made them feel. Yeah. And it's like, every time they're talking to you, they feel smart. They feel heard. They feel understood. Like, that's what you need to get them to not ignore you. When you pick up the phone when you knock the door when you send that email. And yeah, it's just I always want to create this thing where it's like, every time they talk to me, they feel like it's fun. They feel smart, they feel they don't feel disrespected. And it's because I like people. And I have a lot of respect for people. And I believe that I have something to learn from everybody.

Claire Davis 53:45

And can they learn more about you and connect with you and maybe check out your course on how to do video?

Chris Bogue 53:52

Well, awesome. Thank you for teeing it up. So if your audience is interested in following me, the best way to do that is to go on LinkedIn got Crispo. org and ring my bell. So there's a bell feature on LinkedIn. I'm a creator, I'm posting new content every day, posting new comedic sketches. Every week, I talk a lot about sales and video, how to be confident on video, how to do it efficiently and quickly how to caption your videos. So I get free knowledge away on LinkedIn every day. And I'm a chatty Cathy. So come shoot me a DM and shoot me a connection request. I love talking to people on LinkedIn. And yeah, if you want to take your video to the next game, I have a course that I sell online so it is it's called The Complete Guide to selling on video. You can find that at Chris boge.io. So again, this is not something they're going to teach you at business school it's not even something they're going to teach you. If you get you know the program like Bom Bom or vid yard or drift. They'll teach you how to use the features they won't teach you how to create a human connection on video you know, so Um, yeah, the complete guide, it is fast. But thorough, you know, I really broke it down. It's broken out into six modules. So we cover the on camera performance. Where do you put the lights? Where do you put the camera? You know, we build the sales strategy. There's LinkedIn growth and LinkedIn connection strategy in their downloadable materials for your lead list. And then it's, you know, script writing. So there's different ways to talk to somebody you know, versus somebody you don't know. There's language in there, how you ask for referrals? How do you get stuff in the mid pipeline to actually show up to the meeting, and then it ends with the outbound so I show editing, I show how I do batch footage. So I shoot a lot of videos in one sitting. And then I show you how I edit it, how I caption it, and then ends with sending it on LinkedIn versus Gmail. So you made the video, how do you actually get someone to watch it and respond to it and take action? So yeah, the complete guide selling on video that retails for $249. And you can find that at Crispo ugh.io.

Claire Davis 56:05

Oh, my gosh, thank you so much for creating that you guys. I've taken it. It's an excellent course. And I've taken a lot of courses, but I have to say, Chris, the way that you broke it down and made it very easy. There's no overtures. There's no overproduction. It's just straightforward advice, real advice. And it's really easy to listen to, and to take in what you share. So thank you so much for making it and for making it the way that you did, it's very easy to digest, and then practice and use. And you guys, he even has sections where he'll count down. So you can do many practice runs. So it's very easy to do. And I for one, have it playing while I'm driving my kids back and forth to school. And I can focus on it and practice in my when I have it in my ear. And it's been really, really helpful. So thanks for that. Thank you, Claire. Yeah, well, thank you so much for being with me today. It's so nice to catch up with you. And I hope everybody listening gives video a chance and and connect with Chris, check out his course in and give it a try. Because you know, one thing I don't want to glaze over that Chris mentioned earlier is that video is here to stay. And if you want to get good at video, you've just got to start somewhere and you can be an outlier in you know, a few months of trying and even in a year from now, you will absolutely amaze yourself at how confident you can feel by getting the reps and just like anything else. And if you want to have a if you want to go back and watch your videos from a year ago, don't worry, we're all we're all having that cringe moment where we're like, Oh God, I said that. I can't believe I did that. So don't worry. That's all that's all normal to. So thank you all for joining. It's so great to see you Chris. And until next time. Thanks for watching today's medical sales leader.

Chris Bogue 57:55

Bye bye. It's great to be here. Thank you

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

The Importance of Creating Your Own Content

AI-Generated Transcript below. There may be errors.

Claire Davis 0:20

Hey, and welcome back to today's medical sales leader. I'm Claire Davis, your host, and I have someone who I just absolutely adore with me today. His name is Dan Motts. And he and I actually used to co produce a show called Power Hour last year. And that's where I learned about social selling. And you might be thinking, Well, gosh, Claire, what an obvious topic. Of course, selling should be social. But what really inspired me was how Dan does it. So I've asked him to be on the show today to kind of share with you the modern methods of what social selling is really all about, and how and why that's important to you in healthcare and medical sales. So Dan, thank you so much for joining me and welcome to the show.

Dan Mott 1:00

Thanks, Claire. I'm excited to be here. This is our 100th episode that we're like new to your show. But we've made a lot of content together. So I'm always happy to hang out and help out.

Claire Davis 1:16

Awesome. Well, I'm, I'm so glad to see what you're doing. I love the new show you've got going on not just another LinkedIn live because this

Dan Mott 1:25

episode sounds awesome today. And it went horribly. Well.

Claire Davis 1:31

Yes, it sounds tell us a little bit about the way that you dealt with the tech challenges today. I was really, I would love it how you went and rolled with the punches, despite your guests not being able to show up for 20 minutes.

Dan Mott 1:42

Yeah, so just another LinkedIn live is a LinkedIn live show. Every every weekday. That's pretty obvious. It's in the title. But I had Gabe Leal, who is a LinkedIn live expert on the show to talk about LinkedIn live strategy. So I was like, Oh, we're gonna really meta with today's episode, it's gonna be really cool. But we got even more meta than I thought, because I pinged him in the morning, I was like, here's the stream yard link to join me. And he's like, Cool. I'll be there in two minutes. And then he just didn't show up. And he just didn't show up. And we were getting ready to go live. And he just didn't show up. And I was like, Well, I guess I'm doing this on my own. I literally spent 20 minutes just like, it actually went pretty well. Because there was people in the comments showing up. So it was able to kind of like have a conversation with them. Talk about the problem and talk about how it related in a very meta way to Hey, this is a live show, this stuff happens. It comes up. And this is literally me live figuring it out how to handle it. And he showed up 20 minutes late because he was having technological issues, I was able to hang up for a little bit and had another technological issue and drops for like another 10 minutes in the middle of like him making a point about being prepared to go live, he drops out again.

Claire Davis 2:57

It was right when he was saying I've got this checklist that I use before I go live stream every time and then it just went dark.

Dan Mott 3:06

But it was awesome. Yeah, I had that like that. I think like the the 58 minute mark, the 59 minute mark right before I was about to go live. I had that like moment of sheer panic. And I was just like, No, you know what, you're fine. You've done this before you've got it. And I think just going in with that mindset definitely helped out a lot.

Claire Davis 3:22

So yeah, well, I mean, you certainly have the 10,000 hour rule under your belt, you know what you're talking about, you've got the reps in. So, of course, of course you flew through it. It's awesome. So well. So Dan here, he's, he's being honest. But he's a LinkedIn social selling specialist. And he helps people build better relationships that lead to more sales through his course. And I've taken his course and it was phenomenal. Because I think a lot of us look at what you know, we're doing here online, building a personal brand and reaching out to customers and making relationships in the DMS. But what I learned from Dan was a lot about looking at the data. So to back up and just kind of start at the beginning. Can you share with us a little bit about, you know, what is social selling? For anybody listening? Who's kind of like, okay, wait, tell me tell me more, but I'm not sure what we're talking about. So what is social selling?

Dan Mott 4:13

Awesome. So there's an experience that happens on LinkedIn that you're all very familiar with, and you just don't know what it is yet. And it's a phenomenon I refer to as pitch slapping. And it is literally when you get that connection request and you connect with that person and immediately they try and sell you their services. And this is not what social selling is. This is for whatever reason, when we're behind the the safety of insecurity of our screens, we kind of lose that human element. And I think that what happens with people is that when they don't know what else to say, they default to just pitching their services or products. So that's why we see a lot of this and really so like when I I've been in b2b Sales and Marketing for Are 1112 years now. And when I started my own business, despite having all that experience, I still was kind of like, I don't feel like I know what I'm doing. You know, it was like, how do I actually find customers? And how do I how do I? How do I start conversations? How do I find customers? How do I how do I do all these things and and I kept following the advice of people and found myself using automation tools and sending kind of blanket messages that I just never felt comfortable with. And I thought to myself, there has to be a better way that has to be in a better way. And I wanted to and all of my sales capacities throughout my entire career, the ones I always enjoyed the most were where I was actually getting the ability to build a relationship with someone where it wasn't just coming in and starting a conversation and trying to immediately sell them my product or service. But I was getting to know them trying to understand what they did, what they cared about, and what emotionally drilled drove them. Because emotions are heavily tied to the way that we make purchases. So by taking this approach of just being a human, just introducing ourselves, just starting a conversation, just getting to know people just building relationships, I discovered the art of LinkedIn social selling, it's just going out there being ourselves. And we can say that we can use LinkedIn as a marketing tool, or we can use it as a sales tool. But the end of the day, it's called social networking for a reason we're there to network. And we can do so in a very casual way, that is a lot more comfortable than just going out there and pitching people that allows us to connect with and sell to people. And that is what to me social selling is.

Claire Davis 6:33

Oh yeah, and I think it's interesting how even after you know, you're in an industry for 1015 20 years, we still have to be reminded to take the corporate hat off, and to speak like a human. And I've taken oodles of copywriting classes. And the first thing they teach you is you have to write like you speak. And none of us speaks like a robot, right? None of us go it goes in and says, Hey, Dan, I noticed that you might be experiencing this problem, would you be interested? Right? I mean, that's just not how we go about things. So I'm really encouraged to hear social selling, becoming more of a common, you know, theme here on LinkedIn. And I have to say that I'm seeing less pitch slaps in the DMS these days. Are you experiencing that? Or are you getting even more?

Dan Mott 7:22

I don't ever go away? I'm trying. It's yeah, it's a goal of mine to put an end to it. But I know that that's a frivolous goal. But I think working towards a trying to achieve that trying to educate people that, hey, there is a better way, something that you can feel better about doing and something that's actually going to get you better results. Like why would you not do that? I think by by kind of having that kind of you know, pie in the sky goal, having something to kind of look for that I know is never achievable. But doing that allows me to kind of create content at scale, and be able to try and help people just to show them that, hey, there is a better way, you don't have to do this, because it kind of sucks the people that you're reaching out to don't like it and most people who are doing it themselves don't enjoy it either.

Claire Davis 8:05

So just to clarify, when you get pitch slapped, are you responding and kind of giving people pointers to say, you can do better than this? And I'm gonna help you?

Dan Mott 8:15

I did for a long time. Yeah, I just I simply don't have the time to do it anymore. So I am, I'm at a point where I need to scale back my outreach, because I can't keep up with it anymore. So I know that anyone who pitched laughs to me is a has a lower conversion rate in terms of me being able to turn them into a customer. So which is why they became a lower priority for me, which is why I stopped doing it. But 100% I used to do it all the time when I had the capacity to do so. And I would just gently say like, Hey, here's why this didn't work, or I'd provide advice, or I would send them to I have a free guide that shows you how to start better conversations with people on LinkedIn, where to find leads, and the easiest way to start a conversation in a very casual way. So I you know, I point them to that, or I'd say, Hey, here's kind of like, Would I just even ask them? Would you like help with your pitch? Or, you know, like, clearly you're trying to find leads or customers on LinkedIn, how's it going for you? So I tried my best to help but the way that I can help more people is through continent scale.

Claire Davis 9:13

So yeah. I mean, I feel like the old you know, thing is true. People want to work with people that they like, I remember this one time, I was calling on a physician and slaps you. And if you've been slapped, you don't land in that category. Nobody wants to be immediately sold on anything anywhere.

Dan Mott 9:36

But I remember actually work, but it only works for the absolute right people at the right point, right. Like they have to be actively thinking, I have this problem and I'm looking for this solution and then you land in their inbox. Yeah, and those are only people within your target market. So likely if you are sending it like you're blasting cold messages, you're not being very thorough targeted, which means that most of the people aren't even the right people. And then out of that 10% of the right people, it is very low that they are right at that point in their buying journey for you to land in their inbox at the right time.

Claire Davis 10:14

So I know what I know of you. I mean, I probably know too much about you at this point, Dan, but what I know of you is that you derive all your strategy from data. And that is something that I think goes a bit unleveraged on LinkedIn for for most people, most people in sales, like I mean, you know, they're used to maybe checking Salesforce and getting numbers that come down from marketing or, you know, the strategy team, but not necessarily with social media networks. So can you talk a little bit about how data has a hand in what you do?

Dan Mott 10:46

Yeah, I mean, it's, it's really kind of the guide to everything, because without it, we're kind of in the dark. The ability to measure the success of an individual message of a campaign of a strategy. Rarely, we can set goals for ourselves, we're gonna say, we're going to start this campaign, or we're going to send this email or we're going to use this message in our DMS, because we want to achieve x. So we're going to send it out to 100 people, and we're going to look at how many people how many people actually responded, of those people that responded, how many actually hopped on a call with us of those people who have done a call with us how many actually converted into a client? So by being able to look at those four numbers, and kind of work backwards, to see what our conversion rates and our success rates throughout that funnel are, we can know what was the success of this campaign, and we can measure that now against other campaigns and see that, hey, well, campaign a was actually the most successful because it converted at the highest rate. And really all depends on what your goals are, right? Are you looking for more leads? Are you looking for more customers? Are you looking for better leads better customers? So it's highly situational. But having those numbers having those metrics to tell you what's working and what's not working, give you the guidance to make the decision against your goals to say, Yes, this campaign worked? Or no, it did not and why?

Claire Davis 12:07

Okay, so for those people who are listening, you know, I have to say, of all the different industries that are on here, I find that the folks that I know, in my experience so far in medical sales is that, you know, LinkedIn is relatively underused Salesforce navigator. Sure, sometimes. But most of the time, we're not a very present group on LinkedIn. So if somebody was to say, Okay, I want to have LinkedIn become part of my overall strategy when I'm trying to reach breast surgeons, right? Where should they start?

Dan Mott 12:48

So if you I think that's kind of the like, the good point right there is that you need to start with the audience, you need to start with the target market and understand who your buyer is. What what makes them tick, why would they buy from you? Why would they buy in general, but more specifically, why would they buy from you? And then even knowing are they on LinkedIn? Right? Because that's, that's a big thing. If they're not on LinkedIn, then you're not going to be able to sell them. So so understanding like, does this market exist here are they actively engaged here, because without those things, and there's, there's really like, you're kind of going to an empty alleyway and trying to pitch your services, like, if there's no one there to hear you, then it's, it's not going to do you any good. So start with the audience know, who your target market is, where they are, what they care about, because those things all inform you how you need to talk to them, and that's talking to them is through your content, it's through the information that's on your profile, it's through the comments that you comment back and forth, it's the DMS that you send to them. And then obviously, throughout the rest of the sales process, hopping on a call with them, the emails that you send them and everything in between and beyond. So it very much starts with the audience. And this goes really starting to go into my five pillars of social selling, or my five principles of social LinkedIn social selling. So the first one is audience, the second is profile. So I treat my profile like a landing page, it's there to provide information on who I am, what I do, and why you should care about it. So having that dialed in, and very hyper focused on the needs, the pain points, and what your target market actually cares about is extremely important. Because if they see your content, if they see your connection request, if they see your messages, and they actually you get them intrigued, right, you get that you catch their interest, the first thing that they're going to do is they're gonna go look at your profile, and they're gonna start to look up more information about you. So that is extremely important. And then I'll stop there because we can kind of go on but I want to see where you go with this because I know you were talking about Sales Navigator so

Claire Davis 14:52

Oh, yes. Well, I mean, you know, what struck me about working with you so closely was how, how closely you look at the data and also how systematically you do it. So you know it for someone who's listening to this podcast in medical sales, most likely, they're not using a lot of additional sales metrics outside of what they get from their organization. So is it reasonable that they could track their own social metrics without spending, like, oodles and hours? You know, to do so. So? And do you track your own? Or do you use different programs to do it?

Dan Mott 15:28

Yeah, so I definitely use a combination of free and paid tools, as well as just like simply Google Sheets. So if I need to, especially if I'm doing something, right, I don't have the time. If I need to invest in a tool, I need to be able to justify the budget spend. And also, if it's a new tool, I have to justify the amount of time that it's going to take me to learn how to use that tool, and also set it up and integrate it right. So there's a lot of complications. So anytime I do anything new, I always start with Google Sheets, because that is the easiest way to just capture and manipulate data. Then from there, once you start to work, once you start refining your process, then you can start in like looking at what tools can I use to do this? How can I make this faster? How can I automate it? How can I remove myself from the process? Because that's how you make that routine, that process more efficient. But to get started, get started? Like, the amount of Google Sheets I have in my Drive is kind of absurd.

Claire Davis 16:27

Yeah, it's a jungle in there. One thing that I really liked that you were reviewing the other day, I think it was in a post very meta of you was you were talking about all the polls that you had run over the last was a year was a year more than a year, two years.

Dan Mott 16:44

So it is since polls came out. So I think it's a little bit less than two years. But yeah, now I've posted 94, it might be 95. Now I forget. Yeah, because I posted this one. So 95 polls in the past two ish years, I kind of stumbled upon polls when they came out. And I was like, Oh, hey, look at this feature. I didn't even know this was and I've literally posted one every single week since then.

Claire Davis 17:03

Oh, wow. So what are some of the insights you got from the polls that you reviewed?

Dan Mott 17:09

So holes, there was a lot of controversy around them when they first came out and for pretty much the half of the time that they've been available, because they were artificially inflating the metrics on them. Right. So I don't know how, how deep you want to get into this. But basically, when you interact on a post, it triggers the algorithm to say that, hey, people actually care about this. But those interactions, those actions that you take are weighed differently. So scrolling through your feed, and just like reacting to posts, throwing a thumbs up, or you know, a clap, or the you know, any of those little little emoji reactions. They don't do much. But if you comment on a post, if you click See More, and if you spend time dwelling on a post, which means you're literally just actively looking at that post for a period of time, those are all things that tell the algorithm like, hey, people like this post, let's show it to more people, you then get more engagement, which results in more views and kind of cycles from there. So I say all that to say that voting in a poll is super easy, because it's a multiple choice question like, right, you don't have to read too much into the post, it's just you kind of fly by boom, I can click a button and I'm done. I've now participated in this poll, they used a way that very heavily, so polls would get a lot of engagement artificially, and then realize that so then they would be like, Well, I'm just going to do polls, then. So then they put out a lot of crap polls, and then everyone hated polls even more as a result of it. So so they changed that about, they change that in end of January, beginning of February, they switch that. So literally, if I like when I looked at that graph, like all the numbers are up here, and then it like clearly goes down like that, and like cuts it in half. However, polls still are really awesome, because they're so easy to engage, because it's very easy to start a conversation. Because it's it makes the choice to engage simple because it's just like a yes or no question. It's this versus that it's choose one of these three, right, it kind of it doesn't take much thinking and and and helps to emotionally drive people to say like to have an opinion on it, one that they're compelled to actually engage like comments on right. So no matter despite the fact that LinkedIn has rightfully so put them back in their place, they're still an amazing tool for engagement. Go and get going. And if you want to talk about like what specifically I found on my content, yeah, which some of it applies, but then you also kind of have to run your own audit on your content to see what works specifically for you, your market and your audience.

Claire Davis 19:48

Got it. Um, the one thing that I want to re emphasize is the limiting of choices. Because you know, we talk a lot about you know, calls to action and getting people to take action at the end of posts and on a cover letter and all those things in the resume world. But I think it's really important to remind that they've got to be, there's got to be just a couple choices. In fact, if there's too many people disregard it, it's too hard, right? It's just too much, right? Or then they started thinking about more and more options. So did you find a sweet spot? Was it like, two options? Three options? It was terrible. Yeah, yes.

Dan Mott 20:29

Alright, so I looked at the ad looked at all first, I cut off all the art of artificially inflated posts. So that was just looking at relevant metrics. And I looked at my top five performing posts and posts, four out of the five only had two options. One was yes or no, but the other rest of them were kind of like this versus that like pitting the two against each other and making people choose. So that was one really good insight, because I think that that one applies across the board. And this, this next one does as well, you actually need to pick a side and like, aggressively defend it or argue it, and especially make that clear in the hook the very first or first or first and second line of the post. Yeah, yeah, that is what got those were like all of my top performing polls was because I only gave you two choices, I positioned this versus that I chose aside and like vehemently was like, This is why it's this one and not. Because, like that's what like that digs under people's skin. And they're like, no, no, like, or they're like, Yes, I 100% agree with you, Dan. And this is why. So it gets a lot of people to comment to engage in start conversations.

Claire Davis 21:33

Yeah, I can see that, I can see that I went back my social, I have a gal who helps me with social media. She's my social media manager. And she, she never looking back at how certain posts have done. And by far last year, we're looking at 2021. You know, polls were off the charts, and specifically one that I asked about, like a turkey dinner, it has nothing to do with my brand and had nothing to do with helping people get into health care or do better in health care. It was about like, what kind of sides of potatoes Do you prefer? And not expect? But do you feel like there's a certain style of posts to to veer off even a little further, that's being favored now, and LinkedIn

Dan Mott 22:16

is very much and it actually goes it aligns to for that that same exact reason that your post about which kind of potatoes Do you like or prefer performed well, is because we need to be hyper focused on our target market and their pain points. Because that's the type of content that resonates with people that get them thinking more about dry, like making a purchasing decision. So those kinds of posts are extremely important, but they only apply to a very small portion of our network and beyond. So those posts are like more conversion style posts, which are extremely important if you want to get sales. But you can't use them all the time. Because they're not good at getting you reach awareness and growing your network. So when you talk about things like right, when you're, you're now on a sales call, having having that kind of creating that kind of post. And then you get off that call and you go sit at the watercooler and you're just bullshitting with your friends, like on a break in between calls, and you start talking about, like what shows your watch and you start talking about what kind of potato is better. Those are the conversations that resonate with everyone. So people within your network and your second and third degree connections, people that they're connected with, that it is easier for them to engage on that type of content. So that content performs very well, all like, you know, we say like the the personal posts, people like telling personal stories or sharing like what they did over the weekend, all of that stuff resonates very well, because it's applicable to almost everyone, as opposed to being hyper focused on our target market. So in terms of pure reach and engagement, the more like personal style posts, sharing stories, talking about what you're doing, right, like when my daughter was born, and I posted a picture of her like, that was one of my best performing posts, for obvious reasons, right? And people just like want to support you. And a lot of times when you get super nitty gritty, right, like I'm not in medical sales. So when you get super nitty gritty on talking about medical sales, it's very hard for me to gauge on your content, Claire, but check it out, right, like, it's super easy for me to talk about potatoes, so it's easy for me to Yeah, so that's why that kind of content is easy to engage with and get to a lot of reach. But it's equally important to have that hyperfocus content that's actually going to drive conversations and sales for you.

Claire Davis 24:35

That makes sense. It makes sense. You know, I think that a lot of these things are not necessarily new. Right? I mean, it's not like we it's not like brands have been marketing themselves based on the business in the past. And now suddenly, they're like, oh, aha, personal branding really works or, you know, we're appealing to other things outside have the actual business conversation really is attractive? So can you talk a little bit about some things that you think have changed in sales from maybe, you know, when you were starting into in sales and business development 10 years ago? And what you're doing and what you're seeing now? And what's the what's changed since then? What's, what's happening today?

Dan Mott 25:23

Yeah, I mean, I think the biggest factor was obviously COVID. Because people were forced online, people literally weren't allowed to leave their house, people lost their jobs, people quit their jobs, people, right, there was a lot of unfortunate circumstances that happened. And people didn't have much of a choice other than to go online and start their business or start building their personal brand to help them find new job. So very much we're now like, over the past year or two have been making the shift towards the people's personal brand being incredibly important. And companies No, like the it, the weight is shifting where the company is no longer have the the authority, they still have the presence in the market, right. But now it is very much people do business with people. So the fact that everyone is in control of their own personal brand can go out there and start conversations, and literally connect with anyone around the world in any capacity without having to deal with gatekeepers, right? Like, it's super easy to go start a conversation with a CEO of a Fortune 500 company, if they're active on on LinkedIn or any other social network for that matter. And that just wasn't a possibility. I mean, not too long ago. So yeah, I mean, it's it, individuals are empowered now. And I think that that plays a lot into like, the whole state of what is it just like where we're everyone's kind of out of job now and looking for it, I think that people feel empowered to the fact that they, hey, I deserve a better job, or I deserve this, or I have the brand, I have the personal power, right? Like this is this is a thing that I can add to my resume, I have X amount of connections, I have these very strategic relationships that are gonna be very useful to you and your business. It's not like me begging for a job anymore. It's like, Hey, you should hire me, because here's the value that I bring to your organization. So I think the weight has shifted, I think the scales have shifted to empower the individual. And as long as they have a personal brand to be able to, to hold that power. That is definitely something that has been in the last decade building, but I think COVID severely accelerated that process.

Claire Davis 27:36

Yeah, I think you're right, it did, it definitely accelerated it. And then suddenly, you know, with no other outlet, we had to get online. And lo and behold, that's where everybody else was, too. Yeah, I was interesting. I was just doing a training this morning on video. And it was with a group of executives, and they were all new to creating video for themselves feedback, they were all new to creating video for themselves, you know, and just learning about the power of it. And, you know, part of it was that they're also looking for their next step in their career. And so I said, Well, look, you know, you post a video, you can look at the impressions that you get from the video and the content that you post, that's definitely something you can talk about in an interview, particularly if you're in sales and marketing, you know, because this is now the this is now the game. This is now the new game, right? It's not just okay, we've got the sales training that comes down from corporate, we have all our scripts, we go in, we say the script, and then we, you know, keep trying until that script really sticks. There are so many new avenues now. And I'm hoping that companies start to, I'm hoping my hope is that while I love to see that job seekers are starting to embrace personal branding, right? When done, right, it's a really powerful piece of your career. Right? Because Because then no matter where you go, your mission vision values goes with you, regardless of what's on your nametag at the time. And my hope is that health care companies follow suit, and that they start to empower their people to become brand advocates. Because really, if the entire company like the, you know, five Megan from finance stem from it, like this marketing team, like all the customer success reps, right? If all of them are empowered to share the mission and vision of the company, then everybody's in sales, right? And so it's just infused them into the business. And I think I see that's where things are going. I hope that more companies align with that too. And I think the next step is, you know, getting these major major health care not to go off on too much of a tangent, but Getting these big health care companies to reevaluate what their social media requirements and rules are for their teams. And to then instead, instead of being too strict, empower and coach and guide people on what they can do give people tools, you know, to use to leverage the reason that people love them in the first place and want to do business with them online. So do you feel like there's a happy medium between, you know, say a company is comfortable with their employees being online, right? And getting into the social selling in a digital space? Do you think there's a happy medium between is a free for all, and we're gonna just censor everything that you say? Or you're fired? Because we don't know what to do with you? Do you think like, where's the where's the sweet spot?

Dan Mott 30:53

I think that censorship, and I might be biased on this. But I think that censorship and compliance or anything, compliance is important in itself. But I think that there's like this over regulation of compliance, especially in like, how, especially in healthcare and finance, like I see it a lot. But, I mean, these companies are literally holding back their employees, which is the future of the way that work is going right? Like they need to be empowering their employees not holding them back. Especially their sales, their sales reps, right? Like, they need to have free range, to build a personal brand to create content without restrictions, that is going to help them build an audience and find customers for the business. But when you're constantly cutting them off and saying, No, you can't do this, no, you can't do that. It's, it's preventing them. It's literally just like trying to throw a stick in the in the tire like, and you're just gonna come to a screeching halt. I think people like companies need to do the opposite. And I'm not a lawyer. Right? So I can I can only say what I see is that I think that compliance and regular regulatory stuff is absolutely necessary. But I think they're, they're going overboard with it. I think that there are workarounds. And I'm sure that if you sit down with your legal team, and like bring in marketing and bring in your sales reps and have a conversation around it, what can we do? How can we actually free these up while still protecting ourselves and still limiting liability from a from a corporate perspective, right, like whether that's, again, I'm not a lawyer, but like, whether that's just like mandatory in your profile, you have to say, like, these opinions are my own and not of X company that I work for. Right? Like, I don't know if that's enough. But if that is right, like, then you're giving them the freedom to go out there, build a personal brand, create content, without limitations without restrictions, that is only going to help them as an individual and help you as a company. And I think that companies need to be doing the opposite of that. They need to not only be removing the restrictions from a compliance perspective, but they also need to be providing training and enablement and hay like, cool now, like, not only are we not going to say you can't do this, but hey, here's someone who really knows what they're talking about. And they're going to teach you how to do it yourself. They're going to empower and enable you to go out there, build your personal brand. So then that way you can build your network, start more conversations, build better relationships, and find more clients for us as an organization.

Claire Davis 33:25

And on that note, no. I completely agree. I completely agree. It can't be the Wild West, would branding work for a company, if it were the Wild West? No, you know, you've got to stay on message, you loop in the departments, you must and I really do hope that I see more and more companies in empowering their teams and people on all levels to speak about and speak appropriately, according to the company, and, and legal and all of those things about the mission and vision of the brand. I think that's where social selling for me, I think that's where it goes from, I have a sales team and they sell to everyone in our organization is constantly selling, because they're just in love with the mission and the vision that we have. And they they, they just can't Well, they want to talk about it, they want to live it, breathe it, be it and and that's how I want to do business. You know, I want my people I want them to feel empowered in that way too. But it's interesting, I think social selling is almost like it's it's starting with the individual and then hopefully it broadens to the company whereas before it was the company and then they thought oh, we need some direct sales people and this develop people and now it's sort of this interesting pendulum happening.

Dan Mott 34:46

Ya know, so I, I work with solopreneurs for a reason is because the methodology that I teach around LinkedIn social selling, is you have to build a personal brand in order to capitalize on it. So So social selling is very much an individualistic activity. And yes, as an organization, you can build up programs that empower or enable and train your employees how to do it. But it's very much giving, arming them with the tools and resources that they need to go to market with their own personal strategy. And yes, you can give them content, you can give them resources that they can repurpose, or use or whatever. But again, it really needs to be them they are. And I think that this is the problem a lot of companies feel like they don't want to say like they own their employees, but like the way that they treat them with how they have to position themselves on their own personal social networks, really kind of feels that way. And I think that they need to free their employees to allow them to have the ability to build their personal brand to build a stronger network to build better relationships, that's just only going to result in positive results for the individual and the organization.

Claire Davis 35:54

Yeah, yeah, I think a lot of what you do, I know you work primarily with solopreneurs. But I think a lot of what you do can help people on whatever career trajectory trajectory they are on, you know, whether they're working for a company or not, though, I know that I know that your target market is really specific. So you know, social selling isn't just a buzzword. It's a real, it's a real thing. Anybody can do it.

Dan Mott 36:20

Kind of you think it's also a buzzword. And I actually, so I actually went on LinkedIn, and I had to do like keyword research on this. And LinkedIn, social selling is a completely different thing. It's more like affiliate marketing. And like, it's so crazy to me like that. It's like in different social channels, it means a completely different thing to people. And I was like, that almost like made me nervous. I was like, do I need to now rethink the way that my messaging and brand sticks out? Right? Like how I'm being perceived by the market. But it's funny that there's a difference between where you are what those terms mean? And that's fine, because I'm not there. I'm here. So that plays back to the point of like, know, your audience know where they are and what they care about. Because the words that you use the things that you say, are perceived differently by people. So it's, it's really more like every word counts. Words have a lot of power.

Claire Davis 37:11

It's true. Do you feel like you'll stick with the with the moniker social selling? Because it applies?

Dan Mott 37:24

I hear you I hear Yeah. So I added Twitter to my mix. My coach was pushing me I think a little bit towards Facebook, and I'm just like, No, I'm not gonna do it. So I fought hard for that one.

Claire Davis 37:34

Good for you. Good for you. I'm I just joined Twitter myself. I'm a Twitter newbie. So if anybody's listening and wants to help, help me out, follow me on Twitter and show me what to do. Because it's, it's a learning curve. But you know, we'll see where it goes. It was better than jumping on tic tac. So yeah, I can't say that much. I can't either. It's way too much, way too many. So you started sharing one of your pillars earlier in the conversation? Do you want to share your five pillars of social selling? Cuz I really love to hear that man.

Dan Mott 38:08

Yeah, definitely. So the first one is audience, it's understanding who your target market is what they care about, and making sure that you speak to them appropriately, and that your message resonates with them. Because if you can't get this right, then literally the the other five principles don't matter. Okay, so the second pressure profile, your profile is kind of your central hub on LinkedIn, you can put out content, you can comment in public, and it's going to draw people back to your profile. And then they make a decision on what to do next, from there, whether that's download a free resource to go visit your website, join an upcoming event that you're hosting, or that you're going to be on whatever it is, that is like your hub, they're going to come to your profile. So you have to treat your profile like a landing page, using the information that you know about your audience. From there, and this is why I stopped there, because I wasn't sure where we're going with the conversation. Sure. So personal branding is extremely important. And in order to achieve that, you need to create content. So creating content, or content specifically is the third principle of my LinkedIn social selling framework. So now that you understand who your audience is, and you have a place to communicate who you are and what you do when they find you, now you can go out there and you can actually start creating content that is going to be relevant, again, tapping into your audience, what do they care about? Go Kreon, create content that speaks to that. Because that's how you're going to attract your target market, your ideal customer back to you. If you're creating content that they want to consume or engage with, they're going to keep coming back more and more, they're going to keep showing up. And that is how you start to that's how you start a conversation. That's how you build relationships with them. And that's how you're going to close more business. So audience profile content, the next is engagement, because you can't just create content and hope that people right, if you build it, they will come it's definitely not true on LinkedIn. It might be more so on other social networks, but LinkedIn from what I found is a especially heavily dependent on engagement. So, I have said, If I had a gun to my head and I had to choose, I'm only going to create my own content, or I'm only going to engage on other people's content, I would ever create a post again. And I think, I think just switches at a certain once you build enough brand, recognition and reputation that kind of switches because you can afford to, but engagement is hypercritical, especially in the beginning, you need to be out there, like going and supporting other people's engaging on relevant content. Because that's also how people find you a comment to his shot can be just as impactful as a post that you write, whether it's one line or 50 lines. So when you go out and you comment, something insightful, it's a lot quicker to do, you're building, you're supporting an individual person. So you're building that relationship with them. And then other people now see that they go check out your profile, they start to get you to know you now they're going back and they're seeing your content, you're building this web of of information around what you care about what you do and what you have to offer that are now pulling, it's right, you're just creating a magnet for you to attract people, we can dive into these a little bit more, I'll just finish up with the fifth one. The fifth principle is prospecting. Because a lot of people spend a lot of time going through and developing strategies around these four principles. And then just sit back and wait for people to DM them and ask for a phone call or ask for more information on their services. You need to be proactive about understanding where your lead where your best leads come from, and how to start a conversation with them. So taking a look at who's engaging in my posts, who's sending me connection requests? who's visiting my profile? Who's doing this? Who's doing that? And when do I start a conversation? And what do I say to them?

Claire Davis 41:42

Oh, and this is all in your course. Oh, yeah. So um, I think that that is a really, it's a really comprehensive strategy. And what I like about particularly the commenting part, the engagement part is that anybody can do that. And if there's anything I know about health care and medical sales folks is they do we do not engage, or we don't, we just don't want to be seen on LinkedIn for whatever reason, we lurk like crazy. But posting, commenting is much rarer. Now I am seeing an uptick in commenting, which is great. And I'd love to see it more. But I think that it's just the beginning of the push that I'm seeing in the industry, for people to get more active on LinkedIn. So I love that you can bring it down to what's the what's the least, what's the lowest barrier to entry. So comment, the comment, you appreciate something that you see on LinkedIn, and then you connect with other people in those comments. Gosh, I mean, camaraderie right there. Yeah, I love that strategy.

Dan Mott 42:45

That's all it takes is something that happens in public, it gives you a reason to now start a conversation, literally anything. And when you think about this in person, right? Like I think this is the problem that we often disconnect from being in person, right? We were talking about this in the beginning of the episode. I recently went to an event and we made custom shoes with our logos on our logos are like bright pink and like standout and they were like checkered the amount of people that walked up to us. And we're like, Hey, nice shoes. And then we started a conversation with them and then realized that they were right, we were at a relevant event. So obviously, but it was, you know, people that were like people who did seem similar things to us, or people who are perfect ideal clients for us, or people who were good potential partners for us. And literally all it took was, hey, nice shoes to start the conversation. And then boom, hey, what do you do? Let's learn more about each other. And then how, hey, this is how we can work together. So literally, you just need a reason to start a conversation. That can be anything that could be a comment, that could be a profile view, that could be a I mean, there's there's so many reasons to start a conversation on LinkedIn. I think more people need to think of that, like, how would I talk this person if this was happening in public, as opposed to yeah, yes, exactly.

Claire Davis 43:51

That's a perfect loop back to the beginning of what we were talking about. How can I be more human? You know, how can I connect with people on more of a human, normal conversational level, I remember calling on this one doctor once, and I was heading to her office and the day before I had tried CrossFit. So if anybody else out there, he does CrossFit, like kudos, that is hard to do. And so what I did was, I take this lunch over to the office, and the elevators broken, and she's on the fifth floor. So I schlep this Panera Bread lunch box, great. up five flights of stairs and literally on the last stair, I was clutching the arm rail, because I could not walk any further. So I hobble into the office and I sit down and I'm like, thank God and she comes in gracious as ever. And she goes, Oh, hey, how you doing? I go, to be honest, do you work out and I told her this story and she and I she was one of my favorite clients for my entire duration. To start, in fact, I still talked to her. That was because we connected over something completely on business related, it was being extremely sore after a CrossFit workout. So I should have taken notes out of Aaron Geiger is playbook and started CrossFit long ago. So it wasn't so hard.

Dan Mott 45:17

But you know, it really why in my profile I have in for like, I've just, here's information about me what I do. And then I put like bonus fun facts at the bottom of it. That's not business related. I talked about how I love playing Dungeons and Dragons, like playing video games, spending time with my family, like I have, right like dad is one of the things I have in my tagline. And I do all these things for a very particular reason, because that is a non business thing that I can connect with on people. And the amount of times that it started conversations with me that right a personal conversation that then led to a business conversation. And in some cases, clients or partnerships or collaborations or anything that drives my business forward is absurd. And it's literally just because I put that in my profile, or I sometimes mentioned my comment or in my content or in comments. And then people might even care about what I put what I said in the post, but they're like, Hey, I like d&d, too. And then all of a sudden, now we're like down a rabbit hole.

Claire Davis 46:11

So yeah, yeah. Well, I, I think the undercurrent of this entire conversation is to get more personal, right to, to connect with people on a personal level, and take the corporate hat off once in a while. Because when we do, that's when social selling can really happen. And that's when sales feels really, really good, because that's truly being genuine in sales and connecting with those on authentic connections. So I'm so grateful for what you're doing. I love that you're showing people how to do this, not just the what should I do, but here are the steps follow this action plan. So if people want to find out more about you, and if they want to maybe check out your course, or see where they can connect with you about hot pink checkered shoes, or Dungeons and Dragons, where do you want them to reach out to you?

Dan Mott 47:01

Well, I think the obvious one is come hang out with me on LinkedIn, shoot me a DM and you can literally just say, Claire, and I will know exactly where I found you and we'll start a conversation.

Claire Davis 47:12

You will immediately delete the message. No, just kidding.

Dan Mott 47:19

Yeah, if you and if you're more interested in LinkedIn strategies, techniques, advice I have. In my, in my profile, there might be there's a link to my website, 60, media six three media.com. All of this stuff is right there, I have a free lead gen guide that is going to teach you where to find the best leads and how to start conversations with them. If you're consistently posting content, and you have updated your profile. I also have a weekly newsletter, where I send out tips and advice. All this stuff is free. Obviously, I post every single day about LinkedIn content. So you can just follow me there as well. If you do need more support, if you need a very systematic structured approach to how you're using LinkedIn to make sure that when you're spending time you're doing it effectively and getting actual tangible results from it. I do have a course available that is $99, if you want to check it out.

Claire Davis 48:11

Awesome. And I'll make sure everybody if you're listening that I've linked everything in the show notes. So if you want to connect with Dan, I'll put his profile in there, I'll add all the links that he just shared. And definitely do yourself a favor because Dan's taught me a ton in a short amount of time about how to really leverage the social aspects of LinkedIn. And to make it fun to so you can't go wrong. Well, thank you so much, Dan. It's always such a pleasure to have some time with you. And I'm so grateful for the hour we've had to spend together and I hope that you'll come back and we can dive even deeper into some of these pillars.

Dan Mott 48:44

Yeah, you bet. Claire. Thanks very much for having me on, of course anytime.

Claire Davis 48:46

Until next time. Thank you for tuning in.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

The Power of Building Trust in your Business

AI-Generated Transcript below. There may be errors.

Claire Davis 0:00

Welcome back to another episode of today's medical sales leader where I have guests come on and share the real behind the scenes tips that you need to operate in the modern world of medical sales. And today is no different. I have an incredible guest with me here today. His name is Marcus Chan. And if you haven't followed Marcus chan yet, I highly encourage you to do so he gives away all the goods when it comes to becoming a major player in sales, especially earning six figures, really refining your approach and learning how to develop systems that will support you quickly. And for the long term. So Marcus, I've had the unique opportunity to interview you now three times and I'm so blessed. So thank you so much for entertaining me one more time.

Marcus Chan 1:11

Oh, Claire, I'm excited to be here. We always have fun. We always put it out at time and extra probably daily no different than any other time. I'm pumped to be here.

Claire Davis 1:19

Oh, that's so awesome. Yeah, I feel I feel really grateful to have you with me again today. So, you know, I think a lot of people are wondering, what are we going to talk about today? If you first of all, if you haven't grabbed Marcus's book, I'm shamelessly going to demand that you do. So right now, we're just talking about this behind the scenes. Because how you can grab a lot of different sales theory books, Marcus gives you a playbook right here. And it can apply to all kinds of different markets and industries. So do yourself a favor and grab it today. And Marcus, thanks for creating such an awesome second bestseller.

Marcus Chan 1:56

Oh, I appreciate that. It was pretty cool to to put together. Because ultimately I put together for those out there who want a playbook to actually execute actually go in, we'll put some money and have a lot of fun doing it.

Claire Davis 2:08

Yeah, that's so awesome. I mean, you did not disappoint this thing is absolute gold, down to how you can analyze personality types before you go into a cold call. And I think that that is something that maybe we start off with that at the beginning. Because at the core, if we're going to apply this kind of sales strategy to any market, I feel like that's something that everybody needs to know. So can you tell us a little bit about that?

Marcus Chan 2:35

Sure. Absolutely. So I think one of the most important things is most salespeople have a certain way of doing things. And it's not that is necessarily wrong, but if you've ever felt I didn't I'm just better this type of prospects? Well, you're probably right, because of your personality type and how that person or that prospect is like, but they're gonna get in front of somebody else. It's like, oh, it's really hard to sell this type of person. And the average rep is just said, that's just the way things are. But the elite sales professional understands, okay, how can I lean into my strengths, but also be aware of my weaknesses and adjust the personality type of the prospect. And I really break down into four types of personality types, and depending on which personality, you know, studies you've looked into, there's many out there, I can like generally bucket into four, right? And when I go through them, the some of you might be like, Well, I think I'm more of this than that. Somebody it's a blend, alright, so it's not necessarily that there's nothing as binary, it's not one or the other. It's usually a blend. Alright, so for example, so number one is analytical. So an analytical decision maker. They're like, usually pretty much in the weeds, they want to know numbers, they ask a lot of questions. They're very specific. They're very particular, they get in the nitty gritty of things. That's, that's really common decision maker geohab, especially the really high up level, generally speaking, then you have like a director style and like my personality, which they're very direct. Like, they're very short, they're very concise with you. They're very like they they don't like they don't want you to be asked them around. They don't like fluff. They want you to get right to the point. And, in fact, sometimes when they talk to you, you might feel like they're trying to bulldoze you and you feel run over by that right. And it's not because they don't like you, that just might be just how they operate. So they're usually very busy, very hurried, they're always ready to go, take and take an action pretty quickly, right? Then there's like, expressive, expressive as like you can kind of say they have more personality, they're more open, they're friendly. They're these colorful language, and they just have a personality that's very vibrant, and they're very visionary and how they talk right? And they don't usually get into into the weeds or details. And then you have like the more emotional feeling based one, it was more interpersonal which they are you can tell by the word these feel they might be soft spoken. They care about how other people feel, and it's honestly a bad thing as well. There their annual right which you can kind of guide them as well. And when you understand that there's four personality types, whatever you want to call them, then you can adjust your style, right because of how you perceive them. So for example, when you even when you walk, especially in the in the field sales world, if you can see their office, it'll give you a, you can tell pretty quickly what's important to them. Right. So for example, like typically, a director style, they love, status, recognition, accolades, etc. That's my style. I used to when I played a weight, I'm very direct, right supply, I hate fluff, right. And that could also people people the wrong way, right, and especially if I'm on a sales call, if they're more soft spoken, and more amiable, if I just take overs are dominating that conversation, that could totally turn them off. And I made the mistake early on, right, or if they're also a director, like mentality, and now you might go head to head. So there's a balance of how you adjusted. So the key is when you understand that, and for every prospect, so not just the decision maker, but the gatekeeper, the office manager, anybody you talk to, and you realize that each have their own personality type. It's like, how can you adjust it, what language they speak? And how can you identify a language to speak their language?

Claire Davis 6:13

That's so critical. And you know, I really liked that you bring that up in your book, because with without a doubt, in any industry, it applies. But, you know, in medical sales, I think there's this feeling of, because it's so difficult to access doctors since 2020. But really, it went earlier than that the last 10 years, gatekeepers have been coming, becoming tighter and tighter and tighter, with who gets left back in the office and who gets access to the or. And we have this idea that a doctor is just as hard driver, he's really elusive. And it's hard to get a hold of, and he probably just doesn't want to talk to me. But really, if we leaned into these different personality types, like you're saying, then it would make each step of the process easier. And I think we would understand our client better. One of the things, one of the things that I know that medical sales reps and managers both have a ton of trouble with right now is access, almost every single client that I work with is having a heck of a time in the first five minutes, they'll say something to the effect of well, you know, access has been really hard. But in the last two years, it's been absolutely closed. So now what so I'd love to hear if you could give advice to a rep or a manager, even who was trying to guide their team on new ways to get access to these hard to reach decision decision makers. Where should they start? What's something new, they should be trying?

Marcus Chan 7:40

Hmm, great question. So first off, how we view is really important. So a lot of people don't realize this, but this is actually good. And here's what I mean by that, when it's really hard to get a hold of decision makers, especially for you know, medical, medical in the medical field, that means hard for everyone else as well. So that becomes now competitive. And when the barrier to entry is high, that gives you an opportunity to become better. And the mistake a lot of reps make is they're like, Oh, it's too hard, like it is complain about right? Which Yeah, that's okay. It's okay. If it's hard, it now becomes a barrier of entry. And what's really cool is, because it's hard, once you're able to actually break free, earn the trust and earn the business, they're gonna stay with you so much longer, because no one else can break in. Yeah, it becomes a it becomes a moat for your business as well. So when you understand that, and you perceive it, that way, you're more willing to do the work it takes to actually break free. And I'm gonna, I'm gonna share with you just, I'm just gonna share with you a few different ways to kind of break through but I want to share with you just context because I talked to a lot of medical devices, sales professionals, or even Pharma. And they're kind of like, Oh, it's so hard. It's so hard. It's so hard, right? It is hard, for sure, right? But there are also more tough situations, right. And I'll give you an example. Even as a rep, go in the field, there were businesses, they'll call on where you would try to pull up and there's a security guard at the very front. So yeah, go to Security are sometimes there's no secured card, it's just completely locked. Right either scan a barcode, and you can see the building. You can see the bill you see there's plenty of vehicles and you can see the big thrive, you know, it's a huge opportunity, but you can't get to the door. You call the main line. It's just a main line. There's no phone directory or anything. Right. Yeah, the reality is is like those are again, Moats. Those are moats the business, right, so now it's like, how do you actually break free and break through? And there's many different ways you can do it. Right. So like, for example, like, you know, like, if you're actually number one, have you done your homework on the prospect? Have you didn't find the best possible way to actually get their information? Right, whether it's a main line, or even if you could find a cell number which I know some people would call cell number But you have to lean towards discomfort, right? You don't get paid, you do not get paid to be comfortable, right? Like you do. Right? Can you get their email address? It's shocking how it's like, if you just like just did a little homework, or if you have access to it today, you get to buy a lot of email addresses, right? There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Or you can reverse Hacket meaning let's just say for example, you cold outbound, a doctor's office, and the office manager answers like, I can't give you any information, like, I want you to send an email to the give us a general office email, right? Well, here's the thing. Let's just say it's like, help ads, you know, Dr. jones.com. Split, right. Right. Now, you know, interesting, okay, like, Help, Dr. Jones is probably gonna be the domain. Well, how about the front part? Can I run a few different tests? For example, can I go and I can I type in potential variations of front part of the email? You know, as I say, it's Tony Jones, Tony dot Jones, Dr. jones.com, Tony Jones, Dr. jones.com, you know, T dot Jones a take that and you can throw it into, say, Gmail, and see which one gets verified? Right. So there's many ways the My point is, is like, there's not gonna be one one silver bullet, and that's missing a thing. I think, well, reps make it like, what's a one set of bolts get through? There's not? There's not, it's a matter of being able to try multiple different ways. It's like, you don't have to gatekeeper How can you be more persuasive, more influential, their gatekeeper? If you pop it in? How can you gain their trust faster? How can you break through the noise? How can you treat them with respect? So we're actually going to help you out? You know, who do you know, referrals, like how begins the opportunity? So I think a lot of times as salespeople we think so linearly, we're like, alright, I tried to go in door was locked. They don't have anybody I tried to call. They didn't answer. As a voicemail, I sent one email to general email, there was no way in. What if it was that easy, one touch point, one linear process and get you in, then it's going to work over time. The The point is, you identify number one, is it a vibe, opportunity number two, then you want to to do the work to extract breakthrough, right, and you got to mix it up. Depending on the situation, if it's a big healthcare system can be very different. Right? If it becomes your system, you might be calling on the C suite and said, right to make big implementation going down, depending on what you sell, etc, right. So there's other ways kind of leverage it. But the key is like, you look, we look at each opportunity. You want to think it's kind of like, like ants, if you ever have answered your house, you know, your house, your house is fine. And so you've always asked, like, where does it come from? You find they find a weak point in your pantry. And they come in underneath because they smell the sugar or something, right? Like, Oh, interesting. That's a weak point. As a sales rep, it's the same thing as a horror opportunity. What's the weak point? How can you break through? Is it through the gatekeeper? Is it through walking in? Is it through a call? Is it? Is it through multiple sources? Is it through finding them on Facebook Messenger on Facebook? Is it through Instagram is through Twitter. So it's not necessarily linear, but if the juice is worth the squeeze, if it's good opportunity, it's been able to think creatively on how can you best cut through the noise? And whichever medium you go through? How can you make sure the message actually resonates exactly to their benefit? Oh, yeah, sort of thinking this way, it now becomes much more powerful to actually connect the doctor to actually have a conversation to actually move forward.

Claire Davis 13:35

So you know, when you are in the sales seat, I feel like a little bit of what you're talking about is also we feel so much pressure to close on that call. But really, maybe there and I'm cheating because I've read your book and I love your process. But can you walk people through how not every call needs to be Hi, can you give me your business but maybe you go in for a fact finding call as a as a first step. So can you share a little bit about what the different types of entry points are different calls can have like the different purposes to eventually get you to closing a sale?

Marcus Chan 14:14

Absolutely. So I picture sales process is so much like It's like sports, right? Like, you know, the goal, your goal is to make a goal right to make a basket or whatever right to get to the end zone, you know, there's a desired result you want to get to now is every single time you will throw a touchdown, no, no way. Right? Like sometimes yes. But like, the more complex the opportunity is, the less likely to be a one call close, if you will. The goal is how can I how can every every time I have the ball, I move it down the field, right? So each step should hopefully sell the next step depending on what's going on. Right. So for example, if let's say you walk into a doctor's office and you haven't you know, the doctor is you've never talked to him You never gotten they've never called you back. You never they don't want any emails. You know the opener Email, but you haven't been able to break through. So maybe perhaps your first stage is gonna be okay, let me know if I pop into the office. My goal is I need to gain trust with a cake keeper, right? So they can hopefully open the calendar up and put it on the calendar. Or, you know, let me know those blank spots, if there's any place with all the calendar, right? Like or find a better way to actually catch them. Right. And when you start thinking this way, it gets a little bit different. So for example, you might walk in, and now it's like, you know, you know, the receptionist is John the receptionist. And now it's like, it's like, you maybe already called me for you walk in and says, I will talk to Dr. Jones like, Hey, John. Yeah, John, they're confused now. Oh, hey, John. I'm Marcus with x. Actually, I talk to you on the phone for a little bit. Right. Like, like, I know, it's been great, a crazy, crazy busy day. But is there any chance I can talk to so so no, he's busy right now. No worries, how some don't just like leave now. builds trust, report them. Right? Find out what's what's going on in their world, build some convert doesn't trust here. Right? Like the key is is like when we start thinking transformational about opportunities. And you realize by building trust with John, John might now guide you to when they're available. That's really powerful, right? Because if you think about this, like, I'll give an example. So every time they'll walk in, to you know, a walk in cold call, right? You walk into the business or whatever we met, even back office, we augment our offices as well as our reception. They're kind of guarded, you know, and then we, you talk to them for a little bit to kind of open it up, ask them some easy questions, and they feel really couple if you haven't know, like what you guys do for X, Y, and Z? Oh, no, we're gonna take care of cool i'll use for oh, he's been for like, 20 years really happy. We love the rep. That's great to hear. Awesome. How long have you been here for? I've been here for five years? Well, that's amazing. I'm sure you probably seen a lot lots sales people coming to you. Oh, yeah. All the time. Okay, cool. And now that they've had a lot of you a little bit of trust, a little bit conversation. And now it's so easy to kind of ask another question that's relevant to you. Right? Hey, so I know, obviously, the doctor is really loyal to who they're using. Like, do you happen to know like, I mean, basically, you've seen so far, like, would they be open to the conversation at all? I mean, I think so. But all if we could talk about this. Okay, cool. Well, that's all you need. You see it opening? Right? Yeah, that's kind of my points. Like, I think we think so linearly. It's like, why don't hit this objective, then it's, it's a dead opportunity. No, you actually built on trust and good luck, or you move you move forward. Right? The key is, is like, is being able to get a trust as fast as possible. And I would say, the faster you can do that, the better it's gonna be. Right. That's why it's like when you walk in, you have the EFB ready to go. Like, if you raise a game as fast as possible, you can't like you know, slow moving slow, and like, oh, you know, I was trying to get hold of Dr. Wright. Jones, like, who are you? Right? So like, this works like, like, once, once the game, the game timer starts, you gotta be odd. Yes. And we started thinking this way you start each stage, we move forward, because now it's like, okay, that's stage sold, you move, you move to progress. Like, they're usually, they usually come in early on Fridays before 8am to get some paperwork done. So, you know, if you happen to be here around a time, you might tell a catch him. That's all I need to know. Now, I'm there at seven o'clock, right? Wait outside the door, right? To catch them for even a quick conversation. And again, let's see. I mean, it'd be at 7am. And honestly, they're trying to run a discovery process or present anything. It may be December time, and beloved trust, right, again, moving this stage forward. So every stage you go into, it may not be linear. But once you're in that stage, what's your desired outcome? How can you move forward? Right, if you're in discovery, it might be purely factfinding, which then you can send them a follow up call as well to bring some samples, have a conversation, bringing over you know, any type of collateral or documentation that they may want to see other case studies use cases, etc. So they feel more comfortable with you. So every single step should have a goal to move forward. Right. And but again, it's not toward necessary. I mean, ideally, the goal is to close, but can you move it towards closing? Can you move it down the field? And when you start thinking that way, you stop playing the long game?

Claire Davis 19:14

Yeah. You know, one thing I love that you talk a lot about, as far as who are the top performers in sales of all industries, and specifically with your clients to is they spend the majority of their time prospecting and qualifying who they're going to speak with because I remember the early days of being in the field and the the answer to Oh, you're not developing enough business was make more calls. And it's a it's a circle, it's a trap. So can you can you take me from when so instead of you know, calling, calling calling on that same person that you just you just got through the, the gatekeeper, and now you found when that doctor is going to be in the office on Friday, what should I be doing? Between when I heard he's going to be the office, and when I'm sitting in my car at 7am on Friday, what kind of ways can I research and do that qualifying so that when that game time starts, I can be ready.

Marcus Chan 20:16

Hmm, cool. So I think the field is my there's like emotional preparation to gain emotional trust. And there's like logical preparation, like logical preparations like taking a look at your car, what details you have about the note any past calls? Is there anything online you can learn about the doctor that's relevant to the field that you're in, right? Like having been part of conferences or anything else like that, like that's, like, very logical at you at the zoo, it's gonna help you potentially gain trust faster. From a business perspective. That's what you have to find out. That can be press releases, that can be whatever they're, they can be checking out their social media, see what they're posting about their activism there some are, some are not as various right? But you do Where is 2022? As right now, right, maybe 20 people, you actually listen to this, but it's like, you could search and find anything by anyone right now. Right? So you gain some business perspective, right? And that by itself, you already had the game. Now, here's the thing. At the end of the day, most generally speaking, most doctors are very ego driven. You know, most people are stats driven, etc. Right? So now what else can you find out about them? They'll help gain trust very quickly, that can be relevant to them. Right? So take a look at their social media. Have they posted anything? Maybe they got voted? You know, number one doctor, you know, in the Pacific Northwest, right? Number one pediatrician in Pacific Northwest by whatever your organization, right? Or maybe other cool things they posted on recently, you know, take a look at their Facebook page, take a look at their social media handles for the organization. What are they put out recently? Because usually, it's probably important to them. Right? So if you saw a big healthcare system, and you see that the health care system had published their most recent article that's like, you know, getting a lot of buzz, you want to know that is? Alright, so like, depending on how small or big you want to do your homework in advance, knowing about what's going on in their world, what's most important to them. And sometimes it really was really clear and evident, somebody's not as clear. So you do your best, right. But then you can also encourage them a personal close to like, for example, like, you know, like this small basic stuff that like, I don't know, you find you find that even It's so silly when you find out what sports teams are into. Yeah, right. Other Other things aren't as important to them. How can you slip that in? You uncover their family person? How can you incorporate that in your conversation? Yeah, I think a mistake that people make is like, they walk in, they're like, Oh, hey, so I see. You're a fisherman. Cool. Me too. I'm a fisherman too. Awesome. That's very general. Right? But like, imagine, like, you know, you go to that you booked me that doctor or you're in the hallway, you're talking a little bit. It's like, Hey, how's it going? Can you have some conversation that I'm gonna pour? And you're wrapping me up? And you know, it's an answer. He gave a plan for the weekend. He's like, Oh, you know, I'm gonna go. I got some kids stuff, too. And you're Yeah, cool. Me too. Actually, I got I got two boys at home. We're actually gonna be going camping do this. Isn't this weekend? It over here by this river ever been there? Oh, no, it sounds amazing. Now it's like Bo, you're starting to build some emotional trust and rapport based off of that. So I think the mistake is, it's like the way you think about everything that you do in a sales call, from the preparations point will either gain trust or decrease trust. So if you're not to be to be the to be the true, what could you find the upfront to actually improve? What happened on the call? So it's not always like it found these things every single time because someone simply won't be available, especially if you call it like a doctor. That's been like, let's say Euclid website, you can tell us like 19 like 99 they may not have updated it. Right? So you got to take your head and watching prepare, get the best, you know, gather the situation, and then you just do your best of conversation. But more importantly, what questions can you prepare now? So if you don't have a lot of details, what can you prepare? What do you want to find out? Right? So it's like Zonda, what you say? But also, what do you ask? Right? Rather than

Claire Davis 24:11

Rather than I check samples? Exactly. That's not enough.

Marcus Chan 24:15

Yeah, exactly. Right. You want to be like, transformational about it, right? Like, for example, like if you find a doctor that maybe it's worked for big healthcare system for like 20 years. So they've seen the changes across the board. How powerful is the halo? So listen, like, you know, since you've been a podiatrist for 20 plus years, you've seen the evolution and you've been here at Legacy hospital, how long? What have been some of the coolest things you see last 20 years? Interesting. Where most of the most recent innovations, right? Or if you if you if you're studying industry trends, you want to get up high No, this is a bit controversial because I just came out with X procedure. I'm definitely curious. What are your thoughts?

Claire Davis 24:57

Oh, so good mark,

Marcus Chan 24:58

as you know, Does that make you stand out?

Claire Davis 25:01

Yes, exactly. And it comes back to knowing your customer and what their goals are right. And if we can help them achieve those things, I remember when I was working for agenda, which is a molecular diagnostic company for women's health, and the physicians, our oncologists are always being presented new and exciting technology to help direct their care if it's going to be radiology, if it's going to be, you know, chemo or all kinds of things. And so our tests would help them. But the thing is, they are so bombarded with all of these different options, that it was a huge weight off their shoulders, that our team had a group of customers, you know, care group that would explain the result and explain the test to his patients. So then suddenly, they are bought into the test, yes, but they can focus on diagnosis, which is this is going to mean for your family, what it's going to mean for your recovery, and the details of the test, which he may or may not know, to certain degree. It's all handled, you know, we took that off their plates. And I just remember that being something that was really helpful for oncologists. And the only reason that we did it was because we knew that they have to explain so much in a short amount of time with that patient, that if we could help take some of the load off, it would be a win. And it was a huge, powerful.

Marcus Chan 26:28

Yeah, I mean, think about it, even if it's just like, you asked, like, what's your current process of doing this? What's your current stream X? How's it impact you? How could that be improved? Yeah, right. And they're just talented. They'll tell you these type of things, like you just mentioned, like, it's like, oh, cool. So now it's like, oh, my gosh, is painful. We only have like, three minutes explain this whole process for them. They're feel overwhelmed that their emotional ready because of what's going on, and they get mad at me. Now you have all it's very powerful, because you actually uncovering what's actually going on in the world. So then from there, it's, it's amazing how, when you show them the solution, it's like a no brainer. Now, this makes sense, like, offer me great.

Claire Davis 27:11

And detach it from what our, what our sale is, to what they really need, I think that's something that I hear of often is that, you know, well, that doesn't really, that's not going to help me sell my product. But it's going to increase the trust. And you you build that goodwill, and that reciprocal nature with that target. So with that client, you help them and then the trust is there, when you have something to bring to the table. I think that's a really powerful concept.

Marcus Chan 27:38

So a lot of times people just they focus on the short term benefit. But they don't focus on the long term impact. Right. So let's go back to even your example right there. Like you just reduce the stress of the doctor. Yeah, so they're not stress, the patients are happier, they get supports, the doctor is able to provide provide help, they want to help their patients, they will provide a next level of a next level of care. That's powerful. So when they're less stressed, they can take better care of the patient, they can focus more on other patients while they can serve more people, there becomes all these other benefits as a result of what you sold them. Yeah. And the second pill makers like oh, this solves one single problem, right? And he applies concepts like literally anything. So for example, like you look at say like this, this water bottle, you're watching the video, like this water bottle, it seems like nothing remotely like oh, it's a water bottle. But for me, it's not just a water bottle. It's how I stay hydrated. When I stay hydrated, I feel better when I feel better, I perform better. Right? So it's not just like, oh, this question. My third is like, this water bottle helps me also helps me reduce going back and forth is a huge bottle. So it saves me time. It makes me more productive. Yeah, interesting. That's probably now people buy a water bottle for that's why my water bottle, right?

Claire Davis 28:55

Yeah. Yeah. Can I add a fringe benefit to that water, please? Yeah. So we got one of those as well. And recently, we just cut and put a Christmas tree in our house. We're recording this before Christmas, everybody. And it is a long water bottle. So it's easier to fill the tree will see that many, many benefits.

Marcus Chan 29:15

Right? Right. That's my point. Right? So a lot of times, like I think it's like when people look at one thing that I like, honestly, like, even like my book people, like it's not just a book to Oh, it's some neat tips. It's like, ultimately, if you do what's in the book, you will make more money, you have more time freedom, you do whatever you want. That's why people want to better sell, they don't want to get to sell tickets to get better at selling. They want to they want to get better at selling so they can create the life that they want. That's just reality. Right?

Claire Davis 29:39

You know, for for most folks who are listening to this podcast right now they're in medical sales or in some some part of sales that touches health care. And what I find is the often they will transition in and out of other types of sales. So they'll go for SAS for a while they'll do other kinds and then many of them come back to medical sales. because they really get a thrill from knowing that they touched a patient's life. And so at the end of the day, you know, we've got to overcome that feeling of, well, if I'm improving and becoming a better salesperson, am I becoming more salesy? Well, no, you're helping more people because you're better at your craft. And so that's what I really appreciate about your book, and all the things that you share, because you make it a, you make it a playbook and a step by step system that people can follow. And they can improve themselves beyond what they're taught at their corporate training, which goes so far and only lasts a week or two every year. So it really does pay I've found to invest in these alternate sales, good sales coaching, because if you commit to it in this lifelong way, the effect that you have on other people in any industry, and certainly in medical sales is incredible.

Marcus Chan 31:03

You're so spot on, right, we're, you know, I look at every career, it's a choice, it's, I look at as a craft, or just a job, right? And we look at as a craft, and especially when you're able to see the bigger picture, because you're spot on. Like if you truly believe in the healthcare solution that you sell, that you will positively impact someone's life. And it doesn't have to be like necessarily any any crazy. It can be a simple, you know, a simple medical device for foot. Right? But if that's going to make the life of someone's, you know, grandmother, grandfather way easier because of that, so they have more time with their family and kids and actually run and play with them. You change their life, right? And we started thinking this way, you realize it's actually your duty to sell at the highest level? Because when you sell the highest level you are serving at the highest level.

Claire Davis 31:54

Right. Exactly. Exactly. And so well, first of all, Marcus, thank you so much for joining me today. Every time I talk to you, and you drop gems and strategy. Today, some of my favorite specifically were, you do not get paid to be comfortable. So that is something we all can be reminded of now and then right. So important. I love how you approach getting access to hard to reach people. So creatively, see if you can figure out there email. I mean, try some things and see if they work. And I love how you help people to really focus in on doing better and higher quality tasks instead of a greater quantity. And I think that can apply everywhere. So I know I'm inspired. I love your book. I've shamelessly promoted it so much. You know how much I love you. And I'm so glad you're up here in the Pacific Northwest with me. Can you tell anyone who's listening to the show or watching the show today where they can connect with you and find out more?

Marcus Chan 32:54

Awesome. So you head over to LinkedIn put it up on LinkedIn head over there liquid commodity markets champ. You can also go to close with sharing.com Get a copy of my book for free. Just pay for shipping handling. That's probably easiest place to get that or you can just google me right. Sounds weird. Just google me but you'll probably see me pop up on the top of SERPs as well. They'll be easy to find too.

Claire Davis 33:11

Awesome. Thank you so much for your time and for everybody

Seeing Leaders Reach their Full Potential

AI-Generated Transcript below. There may be errors.

Claire Davis 0:12

Hey everybody, and welcome back to another edition of medical sales leader. Today I have a bit of a spontaneous guest. And the way this all came about, and we're gonna call it what did we decide to and we're gonna call it a leader, a sweet leadership bite. Because today Tim and I were talking earlier about what it takes to be a leader, what happens when you're thrust into a leadership position and what it takes to be there and survive and thrive there. And then we thought, Well, why not give it a go and put it right here on the podcast. So I am really excited to do this quick leadership bite with Tim. And if you haven't met Tim sweet, yet, he is an incredible, excellent leadership coach, among many other things. So Tim, thank you so much for being here with me today. And if you wouldn't mind, give us a quick rundown of who you are and what you do for people?

Tim Sweet 1:13

Well, Claire, first of all, I am really happy to be here. This is what I hope is the first of many, because I think just in our initial conversations here, it's just so wonderful to talk to you. And it's been great to be connected for the last year over LinkedIn. A little bit about me, my whole purpose in life, what drives me is seeing leaders reach their full potential. And sometimes leaders have to reach their full potential by looking at how do they lead? What's their capacity to lead personally, but then also do they have the team behind them that is really going to is going to materialize and make real the impact that that leader wants to have on the world? And do they have the operational design? Do they have that engagement from the employee? And are they really pointed in the right direction strategically, because not all leaders can be successful in all situations, you can have a great leader, but if the work design, the team, and the direction in which they're pointed, is not designed for success, that leader can fail. And I think it's a very real problem, especially when you have emergent leaders or people that are finding themselves rising through the leadership ranks through the managerial it ranks, that they begin to blame themselves for those problems, when in fact, it's it's an engineering issue. Yeah, you know, you're by design him.

Claire Davis 2:33

This is what initially drew me to you. Because when you talk about leadership, you're not just talking about having a director title. Can you sort of first give us the the dichotomy that's there between I have a leadership title, and I'm a true leader, what is the difference? Just to quickly demystify it for everybody?

Tim Sweet 2:59

Yeah, when you're when you're in an organizational hierarchy, or you have organizational responsibilities, and accountabilities, that's something that's positioned granted. And that is something that you're promoted into, that is something that you, you apply for, and you get hired into, but leadership on a much more meaningful term, because not not all managers are leaders. And not all leaders or managers really, it's, it's leadership is not something you can be promoted to, it's something that you actually strive for you and I may not have large teams, we may not have a team at all, but we are still leading in the area of, of a subject, matter of a service type, have a vision for the future vision for other people, we're leading thought or we're leading a brand, or we're leaving things like this. And when we talk about leaders in organizations, they may not have a formal team. And, and leadership is really about the capacity to have a bring a group of people together and have them succeed while succeeding at something else that they are really making. They're taking something that's nebulous, and they're creating it, making it real, and driving people forward so that they can achieve something together. And, and that does not mean that you've been promoted into that position, nor does being promoted into that position mean you're good at that. In fact, it's not a skill that people are taught, which is why it's so it's such a difficult thing to to harness for some and why there's so much shame built up around it, oh, are often ashamed that they are promoted into a senior position and are having difficulty or they were doing well in one role at one company and then they moved over to another and guess what they struggle. And I think understanding what a person's limitations are or what's holding them back and freeing them of those so that they can go and be their their own best version of a leader? is such a critical, such a critical experience, especially when you're just starting out.

Claire Davis 5:14

Oh, my goodness. So you know, and one thing that you introduced to me not so long ago was, there is a difference between leadership principles, right? And the capacity to be a leader. So can you talk to us a little bit about what that capacity looks like, and how people can identify it, and then, you know, move forward with it?

Tim Sweet 5:35

Sure. And what I would say is, is that capacity is not a singular capacity, it can be different for everybody, you can find your fuel to lead, you can find your strength and your influence, and what you're going to leverage in your own self and your own experience. And that's going to be completely different than the person next to you. Yeah, just also why if you have mentors, within leaders that are trying to imprint upon you, they're trying to take you down their path, we run into so many problems, because it really has to be advocation. For that person's only own unique vision. But in terms of the capacity to lead, there's some interesting stats depending on which research group you want to follow. But in general, the ones that I like to quote are, we see pretty consistently that about 6% of the population are actually in positions of leadership. And, and I would attach a caveat to that. And that is that they are willingly in in a position of leadership, that it is something that they they are drawn to and choose to do. And within that 6% We have people that are are willing to accept the responsibility for others for their work experience, they're willing to accept the mission of an organization and make it their own. And what's what I really think is interesting about that, that number is within that 6% of the population, about 80% of them say that deciding or acting as a leader has actually made their life more difficult. It's brought stress and anxiety into their life, it's brought friction, perhaps with the family, it's bought, brought emotional effect, because they care about other people, and they want to see their people accelerate and, and succeed. And it's, it's also brought the stress of seeing an organization flourish. For 80% of them, it is made their life. somewhat more difficult. Yeah, that's a lot of pressure. Here's the distinguishing factor for all six of them, the the 20% that find it that aren't currently struggling with it, and the 80% of all that are for that 6% of the population might have thrown around a lot of numbers around, they wouldn't do anything else. Yeah, despite the fact that it's hard, they wouldn't do anything else. And that's where we really, this is the key differentiating factor is it stops being a job and it starts being a call it it stops being something that you can be hired into, and something that you need to feel deep in your bones. And you have to be fulfilled by and it has to complete the definition of you. And that's why the number 6% is so small. Because for many people, you know what they, and this is not not to say it's a bad thing, but they they want to live their lives. And they want to succeed on their own terms. And they want to go to work, do a good job, collect a paycheck, and go home and not have to be terribly responsible for anybody else on the team, other than you have much stronger teams when people are responsible for the well being of their team members. And there is some minor leadership, but it is it is not what defines them. It's not at the core of who they are.

Claire Davis 9:03

You know, I think there's a lot to be said about this. Because certain, you know, we're we've all taken personality tests of some kind, right?

Tim Sweet 9:15

And I think that get me started in personnel.

Claire Davis 9:17

Got the break them all out. I've got six books right behind me, kind of personality. But I think that there are traits that emerge. And one that struck me that you mentioned to me this morning was spontaneity, and I had never considered spontaneity as you know, I considered it to be important in some aspects and maybe less so in others, but I had actually never linked it with leadership. So can you talk about how spontaneity plays a role in true leadership and why it's important and maybe if there are a couple of pitfalls with spontaneity to turn to?

Tim Sweet 9:59

Yeah, spontaneity is not a singular state and for leaders, we have to realize that for much of their time in the leadership chair through the course of their year, spontaneity is not exactly what we we want to see. Now it happens intermittently, but, but for the most part, employees will be looking for the leader to be stalwart and solid and, and carry the vision through. So we set the goal, we we declare the plan, and people know how to win. And they know who they're going to get when they go, and they talk to a leader and that authenticity, that logic and that, that consistent empathy is very, very important. In fact, they're the building blocks of trust, when it comes to leading a team. However, when we have the need to do what I like to call a crazy Ivan, you know, when we think of when we think of the the movie, Hunt for Red October, every once in a while, the Russian submarine captains would have to check that there wasn't an American nucular sub writing in their baffles, so that they would pull this 360 and, and they call it a crazy item. Every once in a while leadership teams need to do this, they need to get up 300,000 feet and start working on the business not in the business, they have to take a look at the operating environment, they have to take a really deep, clear look at what's the behavior of the teams and of the strategy and of the of the engineering of the business and personalities who are within that business. And ask themselves, is there something here that needs to be recreated, stabilized, changed, adapted evolved. And that is that moment of spontaneity, and for leaders, sometimes finding spontaneous moments has to be planned for it has to be allowed, they have to be given permission. And this is why it's so important. If you're going to be setting like we're coming up on The Season of team builds and and annual meetings, right? When we're doing strategic offsites you have to make sure that those are spontaneous creation filled events, where people's minds aren't stuck in the rigors of today and the old plan, yeah, and that they have the ability to get out. And then think about it. And so I think that having those moments of spontaneity planned is really, really important. And then the other thing I would say is, let's just realize the tensions that are against this, not only is there the attention of being the tension of being stable and and stalwart, again, consistent. But within the C suite, for instance, within the executive team, we rely on one another to to be predictable, we also rely on on each other to toe the line, in a certain extent we, you know, Are we all together. And so sometimes spontaneity is interpreted or seen as a real risk for teams. And in mid to low performing teams sub optimally performing teams. This is a direct challenge, again, to trust it's a direct challenge, again, to true teamwork and collaboration, because I will resist the urge to be spontaneous. And to tell you what I'm thinking in the moment for fear of it may put me on the outside. Yeah, and it's seen as Aratus ism, it's seen as being unstable. So there really is a rejection of spontaneity where a person can be seen as to random or to, or to, well, how would you describe me? I'm, I'm, I'm nonlinear. I'm fairly abstract. Yeah, no, I spend my time in the discernment and invention space. I am that is what I'm there to do. I look at things differently and I invent new ways out of them. That is not that is that is a highly spontaneous type of, of role in an organization. It's my job, right? I like to call myself a PSD, professional ship disturb.

Claire Davis 14:12

We all need some of you to and we really do. You know, and what strikes me about what you're saying, you know, to go back to feeling like you can be on the outs for being spontaneous presents this really big challenge for people specifically in medical sales, because they have been entered into a very serious industry, right? We're affecting patient lives at the end of the day. However, now, if you've been in medical sales for more than 15 years, you're gonna know this, but you had to stick to the script for so long, eons ago. And now it's how do I stop the scroll? How do I partner with a physician in a way that nobody's done it before? Then you've got to almost try these different avenues to know how to be able to set yourself apart so that you can make it a part of the consistent way that you do business. So do you think that there is a season for spontaneity? Do you think that there is a certain balance that you need to strike between the two effective leader?

Tim Sweet 15:17

Yes, I mean, balance is the name of the game. seasonality? Absolutely, there's a there's a season by which most businesses will follow where there has to be safe spaces for collision, where we're going to where we're going to take off the, the shackles of the norms, and we're going to really, we're going to really get open and, and try some different things in safe sandboxes. But we're going to, we're going to really lean on people's creativity. And I believe they need that time, when we when we refer specifically to medical sales, or at least use it as an analogue. There's not only that seasonality, but there is a language a lingo and an awareness that that, that comes internally with that, that the maturity of the sales professional or any leader for that matter, is to find their own specific leadership groove. And part of that when it refers to spontaneity, or any of the other strengths or geniuses that they might bring to the show, is understanding that you don't have to be all spontaneous or not. It doesn't have to be just on or off. It's not this type of binary relationship, you can decode yourself so that you know that when I'm setting up a client relationship, the promises of the product, and what it does, the research is not an area to be spontaneous. The brand awareness and customer goodwill and larger questions, again, not probably an area of to be terribly spontaneous, but the establishment of a relationship, the listening to the customer, understanding what their clinical issue is, or where, what their internal culture is, or how do I associate with them, that's an area to be highly spontaneous, it's an area to think on your feet. And, you know, stick, move, jab, really dance around that ring, and, and be able to, you know, be involved in that most human of of interactions where we are, where we are tailoring ourselves in the middle of a conversation and really being empathetic to the needs of this person in front of me, and moving on a dime, still having the confines of representing a product or representing a service. And at the same time making this person feel like Yeah, you were at once the center of my attention right now. And that I am here for you, and I understand what you need, and I and I can still dot line to the logic of the product that I'm that I'm selling. Yeah, and it's not lost. I've worked in certain areas of medicine, in large laboratory services and things like this. And you are dealing with life and death in many cases where you're dealing with tragic stories, or you're dealing with people's children. And, and we are dealing with very serious issues, but having the spontaneity to bring lightness and levity to that, to bring personality and creativity to that within that allows people to find footholds and connection both to you and to your product. And at the end of the day, that's the role of the salesperson is to allow me to understand and and imagine how this product fix fits into my practice fits into my definition of helping my patients fit fits into how I inject some good into the world. And so I think we need to be able to dance with that. Yeah. And so back to your original question. It's not simply it is seasonality, I think on a team level, especially seasonality is important. Having regular touch bases weekly, monthly, quarterly, annually. Very, very important. But individually getting a vocabulary, getting a deep understanding of yourself. To understand which of your strengths, you're going to flip over to the to the stable, solid, consistent method of approach and which ones you can play with, and which ones you can show up and be incredibly authentic. And that mix is not the same for everybody. Powerful for everybody.

Claire Davis 19:35

You know if you get it, right, yes, absolutely. And like you said, it's so individual. In fact, if you're up for it, I would love to have a sequel to this episode, where we can kind of dive into how people can start identifying that unique mix. Because if I know one thing after working with 1000s of medical sales reps at this point, every single one of them them are so individually talented and gifted. So being able to tap into that it's going to be really valuable for them. So Tim, can you tell us if someone really wants to go deep on this and to identify what their leadership, you know, blocks are, what their strengths are maybe how to leverage it better in a team, and to really gain this freedom that you're talking about by understanding themselves better and then moving forward from that place? Where can they connect with you?

Tim Sweet 20:30

Well, the easiest way to get a hold of me is go to twe.team/discovery That's t - w - e, teamwork excellence dot team slash Discovery booked me for 30 minutes. And we'll talk about your situation personally. Will, it's free, it's no obligation. Many people find enough direction out of that meeting to carry on other people, as you say, want to go deeper? Yeah, that's one way. The other thing I would say is just visit twe/solutions And you can get an Idea for what I do in the various ways that I show up both for teams and for individuals. And then we've just got a lot of really interesting stuff going on right now. Yeah, we're launching a new program programs for the fall. And we've got a new podcast running, which I am absolutely eager for you to be part of. Oh, thank you. Well, so just reach out to me on LinkedIn, and that sweet leadership on LinkedIn, you'll find me there and any other social platform that you look for sweet leadership.

Claire Davis 21:30

Awesome. Thank you so much. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I appreciate you today. This all came together in such a beautifully spontaneous way. And so I love to speak with people who truly, truly practice what they preach, and you are certainly one of those. So thank you for joining me today. We will not make it our last and I am. So looking forward to seeing what we chat about next. So thank you for your time, and everybody who's listening today. If you want to start harnessing these principles in leadership, please do go to those sites where Tim mentioned, and follow him on LinkedIn. And I will make sure to put all of these things in the show notes as well. So thank you so much for joining us, Tim. And thank you everybody for watching today.

Tim Sweet 22:09

It's been something that I've been waiting for for a long time. I appreciate the invitation. All the best Claire,

Claire Davis 22:14

thank you. You too.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

How to build Trust on Social Media

AI-Generated Transcript below. There may be errors.

Claire Davis 0:21

it's Claire Davis and Rebecca Kenny, I'm so excited to be here today. Thank you so much for your time. Welcome, everybody to today's medical sales leader today. You guys, if you don't yet know, Rebecca Kinney, let me tell you, it's time that you follow her and get to know her. Becca is the owner of Cypress thrice Inc. and she's a small business owner, she helps medium to large Oregon medical organizations tell their stories on LinkedIn. And she comes to us with 15 years of experience in healthcare. And Becca, she started out working in sterile processing a department that supports the operating room. So we can talk a little bit about that too, if you don't, if you're not yet familiar with sterile processing, but for seven years, she did this. And then she moved into medical sales for eight years. And then something happened which we're going to talk about in the show. And so today she finds herself so darn happy. She hired a business coach and took the leap to quit her corporate job and follow her dreams. And Becca believes that when we teach, share our passions and uplift others, everyone wins. So you guys, this is exactly why I have people like this on the show. Becca, welcome. You know, you're one of my favorite people on this planet. It's so nice to have you.

Rebecca Kinney 1:33

It is so awesome to be here. Thanks for having me, Claire.

Claire Davis 1:36

Absolutely. So we tried to get some music for you guys up, I'll try it, I'll see if I can overlay it in the show later, we might actually have a blooper reel to release later. But I had the great fortune to meet with her in person up here in the Pacific Northwest only a couple of weeks ago. So I'm so it's so neat when you get to finally meet people that you've known on LinkedIn for so long in the flesh, like it was great. We met for coffee, Becca bought me coffee. It was it was really awesome. So what really drew me to you, in that conversation Becca was, you know, I think that we're all in this industry for different reasons. And I know and I cannot wait for you to share a little bit more about your story. But what drew me to you that you know, is that you do everything with intention and everything with a story behind it, which I think makes it a really perfect topic for the podcast that we're having today. So can you tell us a little bit about that journey you took from being in sterile processing, to getting out of that into medical sales. And now you're helping businesses brand themselves on LinkedIn like, like, what a journey and what a journey to happen in the course of like, one decade. So please tell us a little bit more about your journey. Yes,

Rebecca Kinney 2:51

I would love to. And first of all, I don't know how it's possibly been 15 years, but I've been in healthcare, because I'm definitely not old enough. And definitely not turning 40 this year. So, you know, I love it. I'll be really honest, I grew up in a family that was all medical, aside from my dad, that was a jeweler. So my mom was a labor and delivery nurse, my brother, a chiropractor, my sister and athletic trainer, my brother, an ER nurse, and everybody was just in the medical field, aside from me, who had this passion for business, and somehow thought I would go to school to be a nurse, or diagnostic ultrasound, or one of the many great medical clinical options you have. Right. And I think I have enough college credits to probably have many of those degrees. But along the way, I learned I had a passion for business as well. So while I was in college, my mom hooked me up with the sterile processing manager of a local hospital and said, Hey, why don't you get your foot in the door in the hospital? And I was like, Okay, I don't even know what sterile processing is. I think sterile is a smell right mom. But it's a little more than that. So I'll tell the audience in case they're not super aware, sterile processing essentially gets all instrumentation, surgical sets and items ready for procedures to make sure that they're safe for patient use. Lots of set assembly, lots of cleaning out bone reamers, lots of dirty work, and making sure that the surgeons can have safe patient outcomes. Yeah, I did that for seven years. And towards the end of that seven years, I had my business degree, business marketing, international business, international finance. And I was like, Dude, I'm bored. I need more of a challenge. So I started asking the medical reps that came into our department. How did you get started? How did you get started? I would love to get my foot in the door in this industry. Most of them are male. And I was like, Okay, I got this. I can do this. And I felt really really deflated after having these conversations. They're like Becca, you don't have sales experience really cool that you have a marketing degree, however, good luck getting your foot in the door. And there was a company that was coming in. And I noticed that they were based out of Birmingham, Alabama. And I was like, I have not seen a rep. Seven, eight months. They were flying people in. I was like, How do I get in touch with this company? So long story short, I figured out how to get in touch with this company, our director of surgery at the time had connections, and I started a conversation. They weren't so sure about hiring me either. They're like, You have no sales experience, you don't have the skill set we need. And I was like, Yes, but I have clinical knowledge, device knowledge. And I know I can bring something awesome to the table can give a girl a chance. And I did. And so I was in that role for eight years. And just this last December, I stepped away. And I had been working on building my own business for about four or five years. Because I saw a real gap in the market when it came to speaking our truth online, educating in a unique way. And not just talking about ourselves, but finding a way to reach a broader audience. So I started using LinkedIn. And sorry, is a bit funny, I started now, I had gone to a hospital for an in service, my daughter was two at the time, I had to get a babysitter to the house at 4am. So I'm just setting the stage for you. Oh, well, we're here at 4am drive three and a half hours to Idaho deep, deep and at home. I show up for this in service even stopped at Krispy Kreme on the way and got doughnuts, because I brought doughnuts for the team.

Claire Davis 6:42

A plus A plus.

Rebecca Kinney 6:46

And so I show up. I had this perfectly curated presentation, everything was awesome. I tied their trends to the presentation how I can specifically meet their needs in this in service to Claire to people were there. And I was like, Oh my gosh, not only did I not reach anybody, but I also probably lost money today. And I was like crap, this really sucks. And so I was like, you know, I gave a really great answer. So I'm just gonna pop into this little room over here, this little sort of German hospital. And there I record my first LinkedIn video. And it was grainy and it was dark, and I had a head cold. So I sounded horrible. And I was like, Okay, I'm gonna put this on LinkedIn, LinkedIn, let's go start typing on my computer. Apparently, I had three LinkedIn profiles. None of which, none of which did I know the password for I was connected to 27 people, and 20 of them were in my family. And I was like, Okay, I'm gonna post this video, though. Let's see if any, if it gets any traction, and nine people saw it, I was like, That is seven people more than my answer was just netted. So I wanted to just keep this up. And so now we fast forward. We're seven years later, I'm connected to just over 30,000 people that are all network professionals. And that is actually how you and I met. And it's been incredible. So now I just get to serve healthcare organizations and help them tell their story.

Claire Davis 8:18

Oh, my gosh, I love that. And you know, it's funny, because when you're on social media, there's this huge pressure to have 10,000 followers and 1000s of people seeing your video content. But I mean, let's just break it down to this little scenario. Nine people is a huge increase from to when it comes to getting your message out to the right audience. So it doesn't have to be massive. It's just got to be the right people. And there's such an opportunity to get in front of so many more people, when you use your social brand like you do.

Rebecca Kinney 8:53

Right. And it takes time. It takes time. And I think that that's what a lot of people don't realize it takes time to build a solid audience and gain traction, and even now having a large audience, sometimes I'll post media that flops 100% Sure. And I'm just like, cool. tomorrow's a new day. Yeah. And I think that that mantra though, and healthcare and medical sales in general, tomorrow's a new day, you're gonna wake up refreshed, ready to go out and serve is so incredibly, like valuable as we grow.

Claire Davis 9:29

Yeah. And you know, you hit the nail on the head, go out to serve, right. I mean, we get so bogged down with hitting quota being ranked getting pee club year after year, like, but, but really, in the end, if it comes from a place of service, that stuff kind of falls away. And I find that people who do operate in that way if I find like they have a more fulfilling career in the first place, you know, because they have this higher purpose that they're reaching toward that that motivates them every day. So I want to hear a little bit about, you know, what was it between you working in sterile processing? And you said it was really hard to get in front of the right person to get into medical sales. So do you remember Do you recall how you did it? I do. I do. Okay,

Rebecca Kinney 10:16

I very, very vividly recall it. A guy had to talk to the Depew. Cynthia's rep, I had talked to the Medtronic rep, I had talked to the Stryker rep, and I'm not gonna lie, they made me feel kind of dumb. I was like, Oh, who is this kid working in sterile processing, that wants to be a part of our team. That's cute. And I felt like a little bit deflated. And then when I identified an organization that was coming into our facility, on a regular basis that didn't have a vendor representative, I was like, How can I figure this out? And our director of surgery at the time was going down to this company's headquarters. And I was like, okay, Taylor, let's talk. So you're going on headquarters for this company that has no rep locally, you have a sterile processing technician that really wants to be a rep. Can you hook it up sister? Like, let's have a conversation. So I'm in decon when it and this you know, the director of surgery was interim. So she was known for being fierce. She came in and right off the top got rid of 45 staff members. So I this was like fear of God woman who I'm great friends with today, by the way. Now, real, real scary. So my cell phone rings one night, I worked evening shift, and it was 10:15. At night. It rings and it's the director of surgery tailor. And I was like, Oh crap, am I getting fired this day? I'm definitely getting fired this day. And I answered, and she's like, Oh, my God, let's put into it. Sometimes don't perspective here. It's after midnight there. Oh, and I'm like, Okay, what's going on? Taylor? How can I help you? I went Harvard Business twice for the right to help you. And she's like, I have this person from the company and this person, and they're all with me. And I tell them how great you are, and that they need to bring you on is their rap? And I was like, okay, all right. Well, you're pretty awesome. Like, like, maybe let's set up a call for next week, Monday or Tuesday, when it's not midnight. You know? Like, that'd be super cool. Um, let's talk about this. And I will not lie to you. That was the scariest process ever. Going through the interview process. I did what was so scary about it. I didn't know what I was doing. Sure, I'd never sold before. They were asking me to explain a qualifications I didn't have. And I was scared crapless. I was like, my voice was shaking. I was nervous. And it was even crazier when they flew me across the country. And I like, you know, I hadn't traveled a whole lot at that point. And it was like, it was just very, very intimidating. And it I remember, I was still like, I was huddled in the basement so that you couldn't hear the dog barking or my kid wouldn't start crying. Because this point, she was really little, I think she was 16 months old or something. Like had mom come over to watch the kid. I went downstairs, my voice was shaky. I was nervous, have sweaty. And I just kept going at it.

Claire Davis 13:20

Yeah. Yeah. You know, I think that there's so many opportunities in front of us all the time. But it's almost like we miss them until sometimes we always miss them. But you recognize, okay, one big deal that you could chat with other reps who were coming in, you're like, I want what they have, I want to be where they're at. And then to you picked up that that that technology was in your hospital, but nobody was there to represent it. Like that, I think is the kind of proactive attitude, you've got to have to break in anywhere. It almost doesn't matter what we want to do. It's finding out those opportunities that other people are missing, and maybe we've missed for a while and trying something new. I mean, that's really why a lot of people I mean, listen, does the world need another podcast? Probably not. But here's the thing. People like you, who do things that are so far out of the box so far out of the norm of applying online, you know, following the process that everybody follows. So I really love to find these little things that you do that set you apart and it shows at every turn. So okay, so now you're in this role, and you're loving it to a point you're finding out okay, maybe this isn't for me, after all. Can you kind of talk us through like what red flags were coming up for you that so that sold you on maybe doing something different than just working for a company period?

Rebecca Kinney 14:52

Well, you know, I realized early on working for any corporation at all, that you are disposable Hmm, you can be like, go at any point and they will have a replacement and no time. Yeah. So I was like, how do you are future proof my career? Yeah. All right, how do I go about doing that? Because I want to be authentically myself. And I want to, you know, I just not that it's all rainbows and butterflies and fun, but like, how, how can I enjoy what I'm doing every day? Because the part of my job that I enjoyed at the time was working with clinical staff was educating was seen the team's get these moments of, well, Becca, I didn't know that before. But this could change a patient's life forever. Those are the moments I live for the moments I didn't live for where the process improvement plans were the corporate quotas, were the you must achieve a certain number, the competitive nature of corporate America that says, even though you were P club last year, you're bottom of the totem pole this year, am I But am I really because my quota went way that crap up, man. So really, I'm not bottom of the totem pole, you just over inflated my quota and a small territory. Right? So now that you've changed with me, your expectation of me changed, right? So, you know, it's just me realizing that the expectation was going to continually rise for my performance. But was I prepared to meet that level of work? Meaning was I willing to sacrifice my time with my family, was I willing to sacrifice my time with the people I loved? I mean, for seven years, I put in a solid 12 to 14 hours a day, every day, and I'm not gonna lie, I was tired. Really, really tired. And I found that I would lose a little bit of me along the way, until I started getting invited to write for blogs, or industry magazines, or be on live recordings on LinkedIn. And I was like, Oh, I can feel this little like piece of ice becoming a snowball. And it's rolling. And it's rolling. And it's rolling as getting bigger. And so is my opportunity to bless unreached people.

Claire Davis 17:13

Oh, I love that. Yes. So then you you, you know, you recognize, okay, now because I'm building I'm finding these things out about myself, right? We've all got to figure it out what our strengths are and what we want out of our career. Because Can you have a fulfilling career at a medical sales company in a biotech place that you're, I mean, of course you have, of course, you can, of course, you can have a fulfilling career at a company. But when it stops satisfying us, or when it's not quite enough, or when we get that feeling of you know, what, it's been a wonderful run, I think it's time to challenge myself in a new way, or in a new product or in a new area, or so on and so forth. Maybe I want to lead people, you listened to that. And then you were able to impact so many more. And in your case, on a company level, on a b2b level, which I think not, not everybody gets to try. So can you so now Cyprus rise, but tell us a little bit about what you're doing at Cyprus rise? And maybe, I mean, I'd love to hear to how the, the seeds that you planted of building up your personal brand on social media, how that's impacted what you do now, for companies? How did you see there was a bridge between the two, and that companies needed to start taking advantage of this, you know, platform as well to impact more people?

Rebecca Kinney 18:39

Okay. Yeah, that is a question.

Claire Davis 18:42

Huge question. You tell me all about your life.

Rebecca Kinney 18:46

I got you. I got you. Yeah. No, I think, you know, I realized that the media that I was seeing from surgical companies, from CEOs of companies, from different healthcare brands, capital equipment, companies, wah, wah, wah, yeah, so boring, super boring. And I didn't feel like I was learning anything from these companies. I didn't feel like I walked away feeling like anything that I consumed was about how I can become a better professional, or how this company solves a problem. So I was like, Man, how do we make this interesting? Yeah. How can we tell the story of the people in an organization that make it up? How can we tell a story of how this company solves problems or how multiple companies solve problems? You know, when I work with my clients today, I work with multiple health care companies, and I challenge them often to say how are how are we making this about the people that you serve? Because oftentimes, we turn everything towards ourselves. Sure, you know, Which I guess is how sometimes I don't care when I put a video on LinkedIn that performs horribly. Because what if it reached one or two people, and they were the right people. So, as companies build out a message, I challenge them often to say, Okay, your mission statement says that this is what you do. Okay, but what you're asking me to create has nothing to do with your mission, or your core values, or who you are as an organization. So are you here to make some money? Or are you here to truly serve people?

Claire Davis 20:34

And allow,

Rebecca Kinney 20:35

as I've gotten closer with these companies have started to attract the right clients that are like, Oh, hot, dang, I am on fire to work with you. Because you care. You've created a solution that solves problems. And you genuinely care about your team. I can tell on the first discovery call. Whether or not it's a team I want to work with or not.

Claire Davis 20:57

Oh, interesting, okay. What do you you know, what are some of the things that come up that you hear when you're meeting with that team for the first time that tell you, Okay, these people know how to work together, and they respect each other, all that stuff.

Rebecca Kinney 21:10

They, they listen to each other, they're open to feedback, they're energetic. They're CEOs of companies that aren't so far detached, that they still want to have a conversation with you. Like the CEO is often involved in the onboarding process of what I do of these health care companies. Because they're like, We have a team, we're a company that's growing, we want to keep growing, how do we go about strategizing to do that? I was like, You know what, I have a solution for you. We do need to build out a strategy for your organization. And guess what, I want you to be the hero, your marketing team is the hero, everybody on your team, you are the voice of your company. And I'm just going to take that and I'm going to pour some sugar on it. Put some or I think the other day, when I had a call with one of my clients on a monthly call, I was like, Okay, guys, my job is to take your margarita cup, and I'm going to be the little bit of paprika, and salt, and sugar. That's all on the rim. And we're gonna make it awesome. But you guys are the whole drink. You're the cup. You're the lime, you're the flavor. I'm just gonna help it shine. And that's the goal. That's

Claire Davis 22:27

yeah. You know, do you think that companies typically have a good handle on what their mission mission and vision statement really means? Like, do you feel like companies say what they think they should in a mission and vision? Or do you think they really, generally play out what their mission and vision is?

Rebecca Kinney 22:49

Who I think it depends on the company? I honestly think sometimes the larger the company, one of my larger clients that I work with, I think that that the more people and the more breadth that the company gets, the more diluted it gets, in many ways, or the more unaware it becomes, or the company shifts and evolves, but their message does not. So they they're still saying the same thing they said before, but they're a different version of themselves. It would be like me delivering as a content creator, delivering the exact same content that I delivered in that stuffy closet at a hospital. Seven years ago. If I was still delivering that same message, I'm sure I would have lost people.

Claire Davis 23:33

Yeah, sure.

Rebecca Kinney 23:36

And so I don't know, I think, I think that they that most organizations want to be aligned with their core values and their mission. But somewhere along the way, it gets lost.

Claire Davis 23:46

Yeah. Yeah. So when it comes to then creating content that aligns with that mission, what sort of things do you use? Or what methods do you use to start pulling from who they're trying to reach to create the right content to reach the right audience? How does it go?

Rebecca Kinney 24:07

It looks like building out a strategy that usually takes me about a week for a company to build out is very drawn out, it's taking a look at where they're at today. It takes a look at past metrics. It takes a look at ideal clients that they're trying to reach, as well as the positive business outcomes that they are specifically trying to achieve. And then it goes even deeper to say, okay, where have you done it before? What clients have benefited from what you do? And then who is your team? What makes your organization frickin bomb? I want to know those people. And I want to share those people and celebrate those people with your audience. Because your people make up your company. So if we're not ever sharing who they are, I could give two craps. If you have the most world, you know if you can solve world hunger that's breaking All right, but what is the team that helped you solve world hunger? And how did you get there? Because people don't know that. So this is really helping extract, build out a true strategy. And then you test the waters. Yes, sometimes it's gonna fail. Sometimes it stinks. But with continual and ongoing content, it continues to grow, like that snowball I was talking about, where it's like, oh, there's a little bit of passion, and then it grows, and then it grows, and then it grows. So it's a patience game. Surely.

Claire Davis 25:37

Yeah. You know, I love that. Because I think, again, it's not that quick win. It's a little bit of a long game. But I feel like I think just like you're running a, say, you have to say you're in medical sales right now. And you're listening to this. And you're thinking, Okay, I've got to get into Swedish Hospital, I've got to get into UCLA, a major academic center. Building trust takes time, it takes time in the field, it takes time on a team, it takes time on social media. And so I really like that you conquer the fear. And you do it for your clients, too. By getting out there and keeping after it even if something bombs, listen, social media is, you know, we're kind of at the whim of what everybody's feeling like listening to right now. And one thing I know that you've, you talked about a lot, is that you will fall on the sword for your clients first, when it comes to social media, right? Like you will try to do the vulnerable thing and try new content that's a little scary or new or different. So that you see how it works. But instead of your clients having to try it on their own.

Rebecca Kinney 26:47

Right. So I have my profile as a beta test. Yeah, exactly. Beta Test. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm sure they love that, as I heard you talking, it just made me think, you know, trying to get into Swedish Hospital trying to get into U DUB. It's a long process, right. But it got me to thinking that a lot of times, I remember those desperate, desperate months in sales, where it was end of quarter, and you're responsible for somehow coming up with another 200 grand in sales. Right. And so I would get desperate enough that I would compromise my own values and my trust with my clients by asking them things that I had no permission asking, asking for sale that I hadn't earned, asking for permission to be in a place where I did not earn, oh, for the sake of a number. And so like, my key takeaway on that would be like, you have to, you have to do a heart check. Does this feel right in my gut, there's uncomfortable because it's out of my comfort zone. But then there's, this crosses the line here. And this is not what's in the best interest of patient safety, or this hospital, or compliance or regulatory guidelines. This is an only my best interest as a representative trying to hit their quota. So I would advise anybody that's out there to say, hey, if you're looking to do something that's just in your best interest to hit quota, set the frick back, man, don't do it, you're out of line, you're out of line, even if your company is asking you to. So I mean, I would say always check in, check in with Why are you doing it? Same as content creation? Why am I creating this today? Who am I creating it for? Ya?

Claire Davis 28:37

Gotta check in, that's checking in, doesn't that sort of unlock it? Right? Because our career is not full of quick wins, is it? Not not in this state, not when you're not when the end result is touching a patient life? And so I love that idea of checking in, because it's, first of all, so important so that you can sleep at night, right? As you're trying to make sales. Yes. But at the end of the day, what we're doing is bigger than ourselves. And so, can you sleep at night with what you're doing? Are you leading with your values at heart and not compromising them? Like you said, even if your manager insists that you do, so. Don't do it. If you're trying to get the quick win on social media, right, like you can go out and you can blast 100 connections a day with an I need a job request. But that's not the way to get anybody to pay attention and really build the trust in you and want to help you. Right and my favorite is our influence should be consistent enough across our career to go beyond whatever nametag we're wearing. So if we start at one company, our doctors know the way we do business and our colleagues know though the values that we hold when we conduct ourselves that shouldn't change regardless of where you go and work. So I love your focus on core values and mission, I think that it's a really important one.

Rebecca Kinney 30:04

I couldn't agree more. It's just, and you know that that is what will create that long term trust with your clients. Like I remember sometimes sitting in directors offices saying, You know what? This solution that I offer is good. But this one's better. Yeah, you will have a better patient outcome. And I highly recommend that you work with my friend, Brooke, who works with this company, not me. And I can tell you, not only will that build trust in your relationship with the executive or director, it will have a better patient outcome. So you have to think long term and anything that you're creating anything, whether it's media, whether it's your career, whether it's building relationships, what are the long term implications of the decision I'm making right now? Will it impact somebody in a positive way? Yes or no? And if you can't give it 100%? Yes. So for me to tap out, do a little check in and yeah, take off. Yeah, yeah, go check the pulse here. Put a little oximeter on here. Some oxygen? Are we still breathing? Or have we drank the wrong Kool Aid? I don't know.

Claire Davis 31:22

Yeah, yeah. So important. I mean, you know, at the end of the day, which we all love to say, in sales, I'm pretty sure every podcast that I ever gonna record well, at some point, say at the end of the day, but at the end of the day, you've got to be able to live with yourself to, you know, I mean, how good does it feel to get that cheap when erode trust with somebody works so hard to build it with? It's not worth it, it's not worth it. So I, I love the slow approach here of of being steady, and committed to the values that you have. And I think that's, that's the way to do good business. And it's clear that it you know, for you, obviously, this is the way that you've done business when you were in sterile processing when you were in medical sales, and then now with Cypress fries. And I think that's why you're, I'm sure your, your clients can feel that.

Rebecca Kinney 32:11

Right, because nothing has anything to do with me. Yeah, none of it has to do with the organizations that I'm working with. It has to do with the patient laying on the table. Because I you know, I remember when my dad was an open heart surgery, and we thought he wouldn't make it, you know, and I had to be a family member sitting in the waiting room. And that was a deep checking moment for me in what I was doing in hospitals. So you know, it's, it's just, it's not about us. None of it is this podcast isn't about me or you, or promoting what you do or promoting what Becca does and Cyprus? Does. This is about the audience listening? are they receiving value? Are they being blessed? And are we bringing them something freaking great, hopefully, hopefully, you guys love it. I don't know.

Claire Davis 32:58

That is the goal. I mean, we tried to dance when we first got in, or we tried to bring some entertainment too. We'll probably get together the next time. We'll give him some stats about the music for now. Oh, needs it. We'll put it all in post, we'll add it in the post show. But listen, you guys, if you have been inspired by this message today, from Becca, I know that, you know, there's a real difference between being great in sales and leading with her and conviction. And that's really what I see. And you and I and that's why I follow you. That's why I was so glad we were able to meet. And then I'm hoping that you'll come back and we could talk more about some specific strategies next time. Thank you so much for being here today. And you guys, if you want to follow Becca, if you want to connect with her, find her on LinkedIn. And also she shared her email with us today. It's info at Cypressrise.com So please connect with her support Becca. She's doing incredible things for healthcare companies who want to keep their patients at the center of their mission and vision. And so I invite you to connect with her right now. And so, Becca, thank you so much for your time today. And hopefully you'll join us again here in the future.

Rebecca Kinney 34:11

I can't wait. Thank you. Awesome.

Claire Davis 34:13

Thanks so much, friend. Have a great day. Thank you later. Bye

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