How to Stand Out in your Industry

AI-Generated Transcript below. There may be errors.

Claire Davis 0:12

Hey, everybody, and welcome back to another episode of today's medical sales leader. I am so excited to start this episode. And I know that everybody says that at the top of their podcast and show but listen, not everybody is starting with Michelle Griffin. So I am really excited today to bring her to you because we are talking all things personal branding, PR niching down and why any of this applies to you in medical sales. So Michelle, thank you so much for being with us here. Today. You are one of my favorites, and you know it. So thanks for your time.

Michelle Griffin 0:54

Oh my goodness, right back at you, Claire. When we first met like a year and a half ago, we instantly bonded. So I'm excited that you have this show. And I'm equally excited. Let's just put the word excited out like confetti, excited to be guessing and chatting. Because for those listening, Claire and I could probably talk for hours. So we're like, yeah, just start recording. Okay, so here we go. Let's let's do this.

Claire Davis 1:18

We promise we're going to talk about business related things right now. But listen. So one thing I see that's really exciting about the medical sales industry now is that people are coming around to the idea that if you want to get in front of your customer, we have to do it in a different way in this hybrid environment. That means personal branding is now important, because now we have to get in front of our client over zoom, they're going to look us up on social media Gone are the days when people aren't checking us out online before they do business with us. So Michelle, if you were speaking to a professional sales woman in medical sales, and she was just starting out to think about building and identifying what her personal brand is, where should she begin?

Michelle Griffin 2:04

Oh, great question. This is so good. So the clients I work with are either in corporate or entrepreneurs, experts, and they all have the same feeling Claire, they all think, Gosh, I know I need to do it. The world is changing, you know, building your online brand is the new thing. But they're scared putting themselves out there is scary. So we first have to address that the clarity or the confidence of knowing you have expertise, message, something talent, something that needs to be out there, not just for you to make yourself, you know, growing and known to the right people, but also because you have something to share with a company with your clients, all of the stakeholders that that you know, come into your orbit so to speak. So you have to know that if you're not known, how can you be of service? How can you be out there to grow? So I like to say visibility is not vanity visibility. It's just being valuable. It's being known for who you are and accompanying promise that people know that you are who you say you are, you know, truly authentic. And also visibility is opportunities, especially in your industry. If people don't know you, how do they know you are the perfect person for this new role for this promotion for this client for anything else, no one knows you unless you get out there. But you have to get out there and I get it. It's really scary. But it doesn't have to be when you flip the switch and realize it's a two fold approach. Because, you know, for you and for those you need to serve.

Claire Davis 3:34

You know, that's a great point. In fact, I would probably argue that how we present ourselves in the workplace and online and in front of our colleagues really means we already have a personal brand. So now, do you start with your clients by helping them identify what they're already known for? Or do you help them craft a message around what they want to be known for? Or is it a little combination of both?

Michelle Griffin 4:00

A little bit of both. So I guess the best way if we're going to start in kind of a foundational approach is really how I work with my clients. You know, I always say building a personal brand is not just showing up in LinkedIn, it's not a logo or colors or just posting and social. It's not really I mean, I look at a personal brand as a company brand, but the product and services use. So we start with this framework that I created three years ago and I call it my visible brand authority framework. And if you're okay with it, I can run really quick through the seven steps because I really think it gives us a foundation of kind of have some guardrails and what these are so we can arm ourselves with the best tools and knowledge to get out there clearly and confidently and also with credibility. So, real quick they all start with PS. The first one is perspective. You have to know yourself with a personal brand internally, who I am who I want to be known for or maybe who I already am known for work, but a lot of times, it's really Oh, actually, it really is hard to be the consumer of your own brand. It's just so hard. So having someone see the all the pieces, the frame of the picture and dumping all the 1000 piece puzzles of what makes you you personally, professionally, you know, all the ways, and then put that together. So we know what your value your missions, your beliefs, your why how you see the world and your point of view. All this is your perspective. So I'm doing this really high level, but we work on that with my clients personally and professionally, because they all merge together, then we go into the people. Number two is people and in my framework people is twofold. It's your persona, the someone you're showing up for the industry you work in, or the company or sub the audience you want to serve or be known to. But for me, it's also partners, because we need to partner with other people and cross pollinate our you know, our connections and collaborations and also people, your partners could be community, you just gonna grow a network, your network is your net worth. Now, I know that is one of the most cliche sayings out there.

Claire Davis 6:08

But you know, it's true.

Michelle Griffin 6:11

There are so many cliche words, I know they're cliche, I preface it that way, until we find a better way to say it. Let's just say it. So anyway, so we know who your people are and what they need and their problems and their pain points. So you know, how am I showing up? And what are these people want? And how can I best serve them? Number three is a really important part clear. And number, what I really love is positioning. Because there are 1000s of us, right? If there's no one really out there doing the one thing, there's so many different people. So positioning is how am I showing up? You actually had a really good post about that the other day, right about your unique value proposition member that then you just post about that just a few days ago.

Claire Davis 6:54

Yes. And you know, it's something that I think a lot of medical sales professionals are afraid to do, only because it and frankly, many people, I can't pin this just on this industry. But I do notice specifically, there are very few people leveraging personal brands in medical sales. And part of that is being comfortable niching down and getting very, very specific in their positioning, because they don't want to miss out on opportunities, right? They don't want someone to come to their profile and think, Oh, I this person can't help me. But when in reality, and I'm sure this is part of your process, too. You know, when we don't tell people the specific value that we offer and the specific person we help the right customers don't see us, they don't recognize that we are that direct line to their solution. So is that the next piece of the positioning is getting really clear on the specifics?

Michelle Griffin 7:53

Oh, absolutely. And you know, depending on the industry and the people niche can isn't. It can be many things it can be by your industry you serve or specialty, it can be actually your point of view, how you see the world or in the industry and some special way that you see it, that's a little bit different, right. And that really helps you stand out. It could be the way you see the world, it could be the problem you saw the offer, it could be a lot of I have like a list, which I don't have a top hand but it's not just I specialize in this. But there's a lot of layers to it across ways to help you stand out. But I always in those first two, deep dive and like, Oh, this is how you can stand out now we don't just stamp it like this is you forever. We're like this is how we're going to get you out there. So they feel clear, they feel comfortable and confident. And those are the main things when you're armed with those three C's. It is so much more reassuring to go out there and share ideas and meet people and know what to say and how to introduce yourself. So number three is positioning real quick. After three gets to be the fun part, the package package in a good way not in a false sense. I believe I've told you this once but five years ago there was this article The Case Against personal brands and they quoted Sheryl Sandberg the XE oh now of Facebook and she was against packaging. And hers was all about thinking packaging is like being an Instagram influencer. That is not the way we do personal branding. So he's just how am I going to present all my ways? How do I show up this is a lot of you do Claire, with resumes with your LinkedIn profile. If you have a website, just all the persona and how you show up and that's going to look a little bit different. The corporate versus you know, entrepreneurial consultant role all those differ, but we want to make sure that translates well and is aligned so packaging is huge. And there's more layers to it the payment you do number five is content is publishing. Five is publishing. We need content to fuel our ideas and share our ideas so people start resonating and connecting with us. The right people. So we need to share ideas. And that can be an audio written video, however you want to show up content publishing is the way. And number six is where I really am getting more granular. By bringing in my public relations, it's promotion, hat, once you're getting traction, and you're growing with his brand, you need ways to amplify your message and your voice. So earned media press PR is a wonderful way. And for someone like in corporate and medical sales, speaking on panels, you know, talking to being on podcast, those are amazing ways to borrow other people's audiences, you know, so absolutely paid. I'm sorry, we don't do paid here. Or, I mean, you can't pay for ads, but I don't. I don't work in that realm.

Claire Davis 10:48

Level we're starting. Oh, yeah, that's like the eight figure entrepreneur will go there.

Michelle Griffin 10:50

So earn media owned media, which is like your blog, or podcast, all the stuff that you own, and then your shared, which is social. And I always say, when you start number five publishing show up and like going to LinkedIn, I think we're in that sphere, whatever, start publishing your your track, get traction there. So we're going to number six, we're amplifying it. And then number seven is where you're propelling, you're keeping growing, evolving, building the trust, the the honesty, the believability, all the things that make you you, you're just gonna keep growing. A lot of times the number seven, bide my time my clients are there, they're ready to go bigger and go deeper and go to like bigger things. So that's where propel just keeps taking you there. So that's a long answer to your question and a very short, condensed version of my framework. But when you stairstep those, I think it really gives you some parameters to get out there with ease.

Claire Davis 11:45

Yeah, and you know, every everybody listening, and everybody joining us live here, I've seen Michelle's work in progress. And I think if you go out online, and if you Google personal branding, there will be a literal avalanche of information coming at you. But what I really appreciate about your approach, Michelle, is that those stair steps make it doable. It's such a logical progression going from, who am I and what am I known for in the first place? And how do I want to represent and be represented in my field, all the way to the propel stage. And it's just this incremental, step by step easy to follow framework. So thank you for doing it. Because truly, I think the way that you lay out concepts makes them very available to people who are in industries that are not traditionally focused on marketing, the sales people as brand champions, this is a totally new territory. So if anybody here is, you know, say working at Zimmer, Biomet or COVID, or you know, Medtronic, and they're thinking, Well, I mean, I've never even thought about being a Brand Champion. What is that? Can you talk a little bit about why it's important to develop? Well first identify, but what really is possible when we start to understand that we have a personal brand, and we start to lean into it in business, like, what opportunities lie ahead when you do start leveraging a personal brand?

Michelle Griffin 13:19

Oh, that's a great question. And really, you know, most professions and businesses a personal brand makes sense. And it shouldn't be, you know, different scales and levels, but look at as your professional security, you know, you don't want to have to keep working harder to find a new job, when you have that amazing job now, great, you landed it, well shouldn't stop there, you should now leverage what you have, take where you are, and just start building from there. So depending where you are, you know, first of all, follow this framework, find out what do I want to be known for? What are my beliefs and all those things, but realize this is just going to keep amplifying you to different people, more people are going to get into your network, more people are going to know you, you're going to be more top of mind to your inner colleagues, your external stakeholders, your patient, your diet, whoever I mean, it's just everyone you know, and it depends on how you want to show up like I have clients are like, Michelle, I really want to be on podcasts, or I really want to speak so you really need to start thinking about how, you know get really comfortable one place and get known and I guarantee you it happened to me It happens to all my clients a minute you decide to take action and show up. It just makes you a stronger person internally to and people feel that confidence and they want to be surrounded and you will start having people magnetically drawn to you now this is all of course showing that you know your expertise and you're a good person which you know, I'm sure the people we work with are but I mean it's your insurance policy you know, you don't have to know once people know you jobs come to you promotions come to you project special things because you're Top of Mind now, right, right, you know, I'm always thinking like when someone says, Hey, do you know so and so and I have some I was racking my brain, but then other times, like, Oh, I see them all the time here or I know them because they're working in a such a systematic way of being present and being valuable and helpful.

Claire Davis 15:16

So well, you know, definitely in the way that we continually show up, right, the way that we are operating in front of our customer over and over again, is what we are already putting out there in the environment. The way that I see this changing is when we start to do it with intention. So let me give an example for re listening, thinking Claire's going woowoo. Here, here's what I'm talking about. For years, I worked in medical sales in my very first role with at a company called precision therapeutics, and we had an oncology diagnostic tests for women with ovarian cancer. Now, I was calling on the same offices over and over and we develop relationships. But a lot of times, they're seeing 2030 reps every day in their office. So they may not have always known my name, but they did know me as Oh, there's there, there's our precision girl. There's the precision rep, right. So fast forward to two jobs later, when I am now calling on some of the same offices, but with a new name tag, because now I'm focusing on women with breast cancer. And I would walk in, and even though it was a fresh call for me from that new company, they still knew me as the precision girl, right? So really, they already in their mind had me singled out as a specific personal brand. But I didn't realize it as that. So do you think there's a way to maybe systematically identify how we're already perceived, so that we can start to lean into those things? And what does that look like for somebody?

Michelle Griffin 17:06

Absolutely. And I love that you said that, because reminds me of my, you know, husband's, he started in medical sales and in pharmaceuticals. And he, I think he had three jobs in that whole industry. And you know, he called on the same people, but they all knew him. So they're like, oh, yeah, you know, he developed those relationships. But just as I said earlier, your personal brand, and my definition has word intentionality and strategy. And are you strategically being intentional on how you want to show up? And no one can take that away from you, Claire, just like you demonstrated, I think, a lot of times when you're ready, and you know, when you work with someone, and there's tests and things that you can do you know, in your heart of hearts, what makes you light up? What makes you like, where are you gravitating for? And how do you want to show up and what you are, I mean, so I run my clients through, like, we have a really deep dive. And so it's pretty obvious my first thing, but once you you lean into who you really are, and how you want to show up, you just go for it, you don't have to make believe you're just showing up as Claire Davis. And yeah, you know, three jobs later, you're still getting into the back offices, because you know, you're that intentionally strategic, bright, shiny spot smart lady that they want to do business with. So that doesn't change just because your job changes your personal brand. Is you not your company brand.

Claire Davis 18:26

Yes, we'd like to call it going beyond the name tag. And that's really about it is and you know, I mean, with your husband being specifically in the medical sales, industry and farm, people still like to do business with people they like, and you're in this particular industry long enough, it gets really small, like you end up knowing a lot of the same people, it's really, really worth keeping your bridges strong and not burning any of them. Because you will indefinitely see somebody and work with somebody who you did in a previous role in a future role. It's just it's going to happen. So can we talk a little bit through sort of a next stage of Okay, so now I'm comfortable. I recognize now that I have a personal brand, I'm starting to understand what my doctors may be continually say about me over and over. I'm getting to know what I'm known for. And now I want to lean into that. Maybe I want to try social media to do that. And one thing you mentioned earlier, that's really encouraging for me and probably for everybody here is that there are a lot of ways to do that. So Ken, what are some of the ways that you would recommend somebody to start when they really want to lean into their personal brand on social media?

Michelle Griffin 19:46

Oh, great question. So find out where your audience is. And I'm assuming for the majority of the people that you work with, it's LinkedIn, is that correct? Okay. So yeah, yeah, I would think so too. And that's the majority of the people I work with too. So it can get it can be really scary to go to LinkedIn because we're surrounded by our peers and I get it like, I get it like I made myself last year post 365 days just to get myself you know, used to it, you know. And I always say that I've worked to the most accomplished people. And I tell you, they all feel the same way. Imposter syndrome is like universal and Oh, start small. So first, like on LinkedIn, I would just start if you want to post let's talk about the posting, first start getting in the feed. If you haven't been on LinkedIn a while it's a totally different place. So you know, get on the feeds are commenting start meeting, think of LinkedIn as the world's big networking event. Every little post is a topic you're interested in and hashtag and go find the people and just start commenting. It's actually a very small community to when you think about it. Not many people posting. Yeah, yeah, it's easy to start being seen.

Claire Davis 20:51

Yeah. Like, what is it now like 1% of all

Michelle Griffin 20:55

maybe it's up to 3% of 83% of the people, there's 830 plus million, maybe a third of that are active, and then maybe 3% post. So trust me, I know, you know, working with clients or people who get on and get traction fast, because there's, it's a really small, little air pond, really, when you think in a big sea, it's crazy, you wouldn't think it but it really is a great way to get traction. So now, if you like posting and doing that, that's great. But there's also other ways Claire, you know, you can go and get on LinkedIn lives, you know, you can go talk on LinkedIn live. Now that's streaming, that's video streaming. That might be a little intimidating for some. But there's also like, audio shows. And there's also ways you could write on medium. There's also ways let's see, you could we you and I started now not so much. It's like social audio club house, you and I started in clubhouse a year ago. But now LinkedIn has audio rooms. So I'll tell you a little secret about audio rooms, i beta tested it for them. For the first 90 days, I met the most amazing people, audio rooms are great because we're all raising our hand to be in the self contained topic. So even if they're not topics in this industry, now that LinkedIn audio is open, everyone go start your own, just hey, you don't wait for permission. You go and make it happen. You know, I'll say, yeah, don't wait for permission or perfection. Those are the two things especially for women, the demographic iser, is that and I'm guilty of it too. Perfect permission. Perfection get the best of us. So Oh, yeah. After rd, go start, just like you to this podcast clear. You started this. No one said Claire, I'm now giving you permission to start it? Did they?

Claire Davis 22:41

Heck no. Well, kinda gasmate was my, when you talk to someone, you like to talk about medical sales and resume way too much. Can you please go started my test or something?

Michelle Griffin 22:52

Thank you. Yeah, it was definitely needed. So that's what I did. I'm like, hey, I want to do LinkedIn live show. You know, I I'm like, you know, I'm not waiting to be visible, I'm just gonna make my own visibility. And that's how you do it. Fastest way. Now, depending, you know, you and I are both extroverts who like to talk. But trust me, I know plenty of introverted friends and contacts that they say, Michelle, I'm actually very introverted, but for some reason, they just get on and talk to people. Because here's the thing, if you host someone else, you're not really the one doing the talking, you're just there, you look like the expert for hosting it, and you just have other people talk. So those are some little areas to get traction, depending if you're like audio, video or written. And I would say pick one and lean into it.

Claire Davis 23:37

Okay, so speaking of that, I'm sure some people are listening, or even watching this and thinking, Wait, so I could start by just commenting on LinkedIn. And in fact, that is not so little known of a strategy, but it's a very, very powerful engagement strategies. So can you talk a little bit about what that is? Maybe How to know what to comment on? And then what those comments should look like, because I'm sure we've all been guilty in the beginning days of ever commenting on social media where, you know, our comments consist of like, congrats, Mary, or great post, Tom. But really, can you talk through like a robust comment strategy and why that's helpful.

Michelle Griffin 24:21

Oh, that it that's the baby step right there. Like at the beginning or end of the day, if you want to do it, just get on LinkedIn and start commenting. You don't have to post I actually when I work with my clients, I'm like, don't even start posting so you give yourself a warm up, you're warming up the feed, you're getting the lay of the land. So you're gonna go to the to the people in your industry where you want to be seen and known by that could be you know, thought leaders, or you could even go to a hashtag though, the favorite and preferred hashtags every industry and look for posts that way. Start reading the ones and then add some insightful comments and I believe, I don't know if this is true or not. I've heard you need to have more than five words. should be considered a legit good comment because a lot of what LinkedIn has or something called engagement pods and bots, were those kind of answers just say good post congrat. You know, those are, I shouldn't say throw away posts, but they don't really add to the conversation. I guess that's a nice way to put it. Yeah, if you want to lend your expertise and your thoughts, what a wonderful way, on the flip side, because when you create content, I don't care if you're have two followers or 20 million, you know, and maybe not the 20 million because they don't care. But they're just thought leaders who find out if their team posts for him.

Claire Davis 25:44

But basically, the end of the day content creators really do appreciate feedback on their post in beauty is in your in their feed, you're getting Yeah, what would you say, is the sweet spot when you're looking at these, you know, influencers, as we might call them, or maybe just people who we want to engage with and get seen by like minded people, maybe they're, maybe they're orthopedic surgeons, who are starting to get more comfortable posting videos about the technology they're using? I'm seeing a ton of that in the ortho, so good. So what's the sweet spot? When we're talking audience? Is it usually like 10,000? or less? What would you say?

Michelle Griffin 26:13

I think it's the person. I mean, I know people who are tremendously, really, you know, renowned and gifted. And maybe their LinkedIn feed isn't as you know, high, but these people are so well known. So I sometimes think you can't judge people by the numbers, because I know New York Times bestselling authors, they just, you know, haven't paid attendance. It's only because they haven't put LinkedIn as a you know, everyone thought it was career resume recruiter site for years, I still is, but it's changed. So I would say go to the middle ground of the person look at the person that could benefit is this someone I want to be known to or, you know, have a connection or relationship with I mean, it is nice to comment on some big ones, because people flocked there, and they see you. So maybe a nice mix, you know, but the real ID conversations are gonna start with the ones that you know, you can or relatable to you and you know, so you want to have a conversation. So your comment, hopefully, we'll have them respond back. And then you start the seed right there, and you plant the seed, so to speak.

Claire Davis 27:16

And I love it, just continuously continue it. Yes, that's such a good point. Because if you go and you try, and you don't see, you know, explosive results in the first week, don't give up. Because with any kind of personal branding, any kind of social media engagement effort, it's going to be consistency. It's kind of a long game. So you know, if you're listening to this, and you're thinking, Okay, well, I had a season in my life where I was looking for a job. And I, I put maybe posted or I commented for a while, but I didn't see a lot of traction, you do need to keep going if you want to leverage this. It's just the same way as you want to continue networking, even when you're happily employed. Because you have to really continue to fill the bucket, right? You've got to dig the well before you need to draw from the well. So there's one other thing that another thing that you mentioned earlier, which was those audio rooms, I had a client not so long ago, and she was doing really great in biotech sales. And in fact, she was doing so well that at the next national sales meeting, they'd asked her to come up on stage and speak to an audience while she went up there. And she had such terrible stage fright. She couldn't continue with her speech. And so she said, Well, Claire, what do I do? You know, how do I learn about public speaking? Who do I go with? How do I get this confidence back? And, you know, the advice I gave her because I asked a friend of mine who's a professional speaking coach, you probably know Brendan Kamara. Yeah, he's amazing. So I asked him, and I said, Where can she get her practice? You know, he goes, we'll have her join, you know, clubhouse rooms, do some audio rooms, through LinkedIn. And even when you're just sitting in those rooms, you know, you're starting to think about how people are presenting, you're starting to hear how people are coming across and presenting their personal brands, when they're speaking them before you even have to get brave enough to raise your hand and speak yourself. So do you feel like audio rooms are a good place for practice?

Michelle Griffin 29:21

Absolutely. clubhouse, you know, when we were all in last year, it you learn fast, you know, you have to also communicate who you're the message, you want to share the question very succinctly. And that is a huge asset in the business world. So yeah, so anyone now can do audio. So I would go do a search on LinkedIn audio events, plural, hashtag LinkedIn audio events, and you can find the ones they are making them more discoverable. You can host your own now you know what you can what's gone on a medical I mean, any topic and just start inviting people. I didn't mention that LinkedIn newsletter. That's another cool either tool where you can, you know, start a newsletter, maybe go do a search, are there any other newsletters? Am I finding a gap or maybe you know, here's the thing, just because you're one doesn't mean that's it, people need different perspectives. So a monthly newsletter might be able, you know, to get your name across an out there. And then as authority, let's not forget that a lot of these things are authority and trust factors and tokens that just keep getting deposited into our brand. Now, your brand, as you say, is not something we grow and do. In one day, it is a complete process. When you were saying, Claire, you know, you can't just show up and I see this all the time, or used to last year, people would just show up, look for a job or just try out LinkedIn, and boom, it's the same thing as you have a friend. Yeah, do we all have those friends, and hopefully not too many of these, or whatever, maybe growing up was worse, when we were little, they just come around and sweet talking just like, oh, when they want something. And then once they get what they want, boom, you know, like, that's too bad, you know. So same thing with when you show up to, you know, start a business, get a job show up to stay out there and just keep growing and evolving. And you don't have to spend that's another thing people say, Well, I don't want to spend all my time I don't have all the time, Michelle to be on LinkedIn. And I've shown him you know, the ways to do it strategically. But what other way would we be doing to build our business? I mean, LinkedIn, I mean, I have clients and friends globally because of it, you know? So what are the way can you connect with everyone in your industry, right under one area, so and getting this close to senior management or CEO so they can see you. So it is a wonderful place to build your personal brand. And that's how I started my business was personally, you know, from landing clients, and just building my brand. And it's continued to evolve as I keep putting investments into it.

Claire Davis 31:51

I think you really hit on something important there is that, you know, to be so intentional as you are with your brand, is is so incredibly important. It is an investment, like you said, you know, and when you start to invest in who you are as a professional, and how you come across in the world already and lean into that so that you can leverage that persona that's already out there for everybody to see. A ton of opportunity lies ahead. So I love what you share. Thank you so much for making it so relatable for everybody. You guys, if you're not yet following Michelle, please do take the time you will thank me, you will thank yourself, she really has it figured out. And like I said the step by step process is something that not only business owners can use, but very, very much that professionals medical sales professionals VPs of sales can use for themselves, to help people to get to know them so that they're more clear on why they would do business with us in the first place. Because really, people want to work with people they like. So get out there so people can learn exactly who you are. So Michelle, where can people find more about you and about connecting with you and your programs that you run?

Michelle Griffin 33:10

I will thank you so much for all that nice feedback, Claire, I appreciate it. So connect with me on LinkedIn, I would love after you're seeing or hearing this Sydney connection request and said, I saw you in Claire's awesome podcast and I would love to connect with you. Because I'm on LinkedIn about every day. You can check out my website, which is Michelle B griffin.com. And really my brand consultancy goes to that website too. That's the easiest way. I have two podcasts. One's about to get rebranded one is the business of you personal branding podcast, and it's going to be rebranded in the next couple of weeks. But all the 51 Plus episodes are there got a lot of good stuff on personal branding LinkedIn. Two months ago, I rolled out a second podcast I told you I like to talk I just can't help it. So it's a co hosted podcast. It's the LinkedIn branding show. And it's about how to build your personal and company brand on LinkedIn with Michelle squared is my LinkedIn bestie Michelle J. RAMAN who lives in Sydney, Australia. She's the global company pages experts. So together we take a non cliche, different approach and 15 minutes or less to educate you about building all that on LinkedIn. So that is the best way my link tree has some free templates on LinkedIn. You can grab and just check out all the goodies. Oh, and then I have that 365 Creators community. So if you want yeah, one last little plug. There's like 1000 of us globally if you want to get out on LinkedIn and want some guidance. One thing I made a recent adjustment is I'm not really posting my LinkedIn tips on my feed.

Claire Davis 34:52

I'm going all in on personal branding PR stuff, but my LinkedIn tips are all in my free communities to leverage the seven step process that she mentioned earlier today, and how you can access communities like her 365 Community so that you can not go it alone, right? Because when we go as a community are more confident and we're stronger in our approach. So Michelle, thank you so so so much. We truly appreciate your time and thank you for helping to unmask how we can start mastering the professional brands and personal brands for our own business needs. So thanks so much for your time today, friend.

Michelle Griffin 35:21

Thank you, Claire. It has been a pleasure. I'll chat with you soon.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

How to Form Connections with Thought Leaders

AI-Generated Transcript below. There may be errors.

Claire Davis 0:20

Hey, good morning, everybody. And welcome back to another episode in Season one of today's medical sales leader, and today I have none other than Gina Riley with me. Good morning, Gina. It's so good to have you with us.

Gina Riley 0:35

Good morning, I'm caffeinated and ready to go.

Claire Davis 0:39

Excellent. As Gina knows, we could chat all day about just about anything, both of us hailing from the Pacific Northwest, and having been in the industries that we are, but today we want to talk about something a little bit specific, which is embracing your competition, instead of resisting it. And this is something that I learned in my career through some mentorship when I was shadowing, and you know, I have the opportunity to work with a woman named Jen. And she really showed me that when we go into that hospital, and we see our competition in the hallway, we don't duck them, we're not going to, you know, brush the brochures off the table to the floor, which I have seen done on many occasion. But we're going to embrace them as a blue ocean strategy and to get to know people because you never know who you're going to work with again. And the reality is, there is enough business out there for all of us. So Gina, I'm so excited to have you here today to talk more about this because I know this is something that you practice as well. So let me introduce you really quick. And then let's jump on in. I'm ready. Okay. Gina Riley, authority in career transition. At the powerful convergence of career coaching, executive search and interview skill training, she created the career velocity system, which you guys, if you haven't checked this out, it's an incredible program. She helps leaders and executives effectively manage career transition, which I know gets complex for everybody. And certainly when you're at the leadership level. She's an inspirational writer and speaker, one of my favorites, and a certified UMap. Coach, and she's a two time disrupt HR speaker sought after for her inspirational thought leadership on career transition management, professional networking, branding and leadership development. So Gina, what don't you do is my question, what what is it that you haven't covered quite yet for leaders in their careers?

Gina Riley 2:40

Well, the answer would be I partner with amazing people like you to do resume development, which is a part of my program. But as you know, it takes 15 to 20 hours to write a really good resume in some cases. And it allows me to do all the other moving parts of career velocity to keep them moving. And, again, to our point went today with Thought Leadership and bracing, competition, partnering with people to elevate what you provide to your client base is another strategy.

Claire Davis 3:09

Why do you think it is that you know, what is it about competition that really makes us resistant to it? Is it a fear? Tell us more about what you think sort of keeps us from embracing others as part of our strategy and makes us run?

Gina Riley 3:27

I'll talk from my own perspective, because this is the truth. When I first started developing my career coaching program, and doing research and noticing the other coaches on the landscape, who were really like, on the forefront with really great thought leadership. At first, I was nervous about commenting on those posts, or, you know, doing anything related to those people because I thought, well, I'm going to fan their flames and I'm going to detract people from coming to me, they won't hire me because they're going to see that person. And so as I went along, I started to realize these are amazing human beings putting out amazing content one, there's no reason not to fanned the flames, honestly, to when we when we comment on other people's posts who are putting out high quality content and we bother to add to the conversation, then we become part of that thought leadership. You know, awesome sauce cloud that's out there. And guess what, it does attract people to you if you're putting in thoughtful commentary and not just like, way to go, Claire, good. You know, great Podcast, episode exclamation, right? We're just fine. Please do it. If that's all the time you have I like I'll accept that. But if if we can jump on and say, Oh, I listened to the sound bite and this part really stood out to me, that is helping them It helps you it helps the LinkedIn algorithm It feeds what LinkedIn wants to see from us, as a community. So first is the fear of driving business away from us versus attracting people to us. And then I'm going to talk about a second fear. And the the second fear is that the people who are already in those thought leadership roles in your own mind's eye, there's a fear of like, Oh, they're not gonna like me, or they're gonna, they're gonna resist embracing me into the fold. Because with career coaching, as you know, we have a whole amazing community of people. And the more I've allowed myself to let go, and the more expansive my mindset, the more people I have to lean on, and ask for advice, and to reach out to, and they give me their time when I really, really need it. And I do the same for that.

Claire Davis 5:52

That's beautiful way to be. And you know, what, a couple of things that I really liked is that you not only incorporate this into the growth of your business, but you're specifically doing this to grow on LinkedIn. And I think that this is a really interesting piece of it. Because when we're on LinkedIn, and we're doing things in public, there is some credibility factor here as well, when you see someone who's got a great big following, and they're putting out exceptional content. When you engage with those people, it can start to feel a little bit like oh, my gosh, they've already said it all. Like they've done it all. They've already said all the things, what can I possibly bring to the table, but I like what you share. Because when you engage with those people, and you do start putting things out there, and you do start supporting those people, they're going to take notice, and that nobody can do it all by themselves. So tell us a little bit more about maybe some of your favorite creators who you'd have engaged with, and maybe some of your other favorite career coaches who, you know, you you connected with, and started putting this into action.

Gina Riley 7:04

Oh, gosh, there's so many, and I'll leave out people. So please don't get your feelings hurt if you just triggered me in a good way. I just conducted an interview with this amazing woman that I've been following for like five years leek, Cara, her, she wrote a book called millennials in management. And she wrote the boomerang principle. And those books were about, you know, leading generations that are not your own, and how to meet people in the middle and help develop people and foster a culture that people want to come back to, should they leave? Again, I've given these books to some of my senior leaders, because they, you know, oh, it's hard to lead Millennials or fill in the blank. Really great stuff. So I stumbled on one of her podcast called, if you call yourself a thought leader, you're probably not a thought leader. And it was this bold, awesome, 30 minutes of like, it was terrific. So I contacted her I did an interview with her. And I'm publishing that in industry expert magazine in April. What she don't be scared that other people have said these things in the past, because they haven't heard your take on it. And they may not have heard it at all. And they may need to hear it from you right now. Oh, my gosh, yes. Sorry about it. Don't worry about it. And I was just like, oh, we that is like the nugget. I mean, don't be scared that it's been said before, but add your own spin and your own take on it. It's a wait.

Claire Davis 8:43

Yeah, you know, I think that what you're getting at too is that timing is everything. So from a creator standpoint, it's so it's so worth putting your message even if it's been stated before by somebody else in your own voice because people are going to hear it differently. It's going to hit different when it comes from Gina. Right. But I think also that timing is everything. And I have a little bit of a funny story about this. So we and you'll appreciate this being up here in the Pacific Northwest. So yesterday, I found out why you shovel your snow before it gets heavy and wet. Right. And so I hadn't it snowed early in the morning. We got like six, seven inches yesterday. Today. We got snow as well. But don't worry, I've shoveled already. And the whole day went by we were busy having fun. It was a snow day. And so finally I ended up getting out there before we had to go to an appointment at four. And I thought I'll just dip out there and give myself 15 minutes. So 45 minutes of grunt work later. I'm finally clear my driveway. I'm sweating. I had to like throw my coat on the ground. My neighbors are laughing at me because timing is everything. So I appreciate Because I think that it applies to so many areas, not just when you take the time to put your ideas in your own voice, even if they've come from an amazing woman like Lee, or I'm sure she got them from another place and put her spin on them, timings, everything. Because there will be a point in your career, you need to hear that and a point in your career that you hear that, but it doesn't hit because you didn't need it.

Gina Riley 10:25

Right. 100%. And that's people don't need to hear from people like us until they need it, like, oh, I don't need a resume until I need it. Or I don't, I don't need to tell my story until I need it. And then it's kind of gone to the show, you know, trying to tease all of that out. But we also said Another really interesting thing that I've gotten in the article, which is it takes 18 months to really build up that credibility as the thought leader in in those on those topics that you want to be known for. And I thought that was a pretty interesting and compelling thing to put out there. Because I think a lot of people are like, Oh, I'm going to do a post. And then if I build it, they will come well, not on the first go. That's not how it works. You need to be consistent. How consistent? Well, if you're a working professional, and you don't have a lot of time, can you make it a goal to start with? Like once a month, then maybe go to twice a month? Yeah, maybe once a week?

Claire Davis 11:22

Yeah. You just got to set a cadence, right. And I think that sometimes, especially when it comes to posting content, or creating something and putting it out on there. And I'd love to hear your thoughts on this. But for a long time, I felt like I had to have all the answers. And to a degree, I mean, I've been writing resumes since I was 14. So I have a lot of answers on resumes. I've been coaching people through interviews since I was in high school. So I've got a lot to offer. But it's not everything. And it's only from my perspective. So it took me a little while to recognize that I could also highlight the things that I've learned from other people on my content. So I love to share insights that I learned, for example, from you, from Sarah Johnston from Alex or Mozi people who I really consider mentors and who, I don't need to reframe their ideas, but I would love to promote theirs and yours. So do you feel like people are? Is there a season when people should jump in maybe to start using and leveraging the things they learned that have helped them as their own content?

Gina Riley 12:35

I don't I don't advocate a specific season, what I advocate is to sit down first and create a thought leadership plan. Think about what are the topics you want to be known, liked and trusted, when you put it out there, and it and I would also advocate that it's not only your industry, or functional area of expertise, have a side topic, maybe it's your leadership approach. Maybe it's about a whole topic of mentorship, team development. I don't care what it is, but have like two to three topics that you feel comfortable pivoting in and out of and why do we want to do that? Because we don't want to sound like a broken record like Alright, there's Gina talking about data analytics again, you know, you'll never see me do that by the way. But but there's people you ask me about people that I follow or you know maybe I have coaches that I'm you know, interconnected with in you mentioned, you know, some people already, but I point my coaching clients to follow Jennifer Davis, who's a chief marketing officer, and Annie, I'm probably gonna say her name wrong but these women who are in business that put out the best thought leadership, in my opinion, it is in their lines of expertise as business women, it fish, they fanned the flames of other people and highlight them. They promote when they're doing something if they're speaking or if they have an event. And then they also talk about like their charitable causes. They talk they It is incredible what they do. Like Jennifer is an author. So sometimes it's stuff based on her business approach from what she wrote about. So I asked people to follow them because they're doing it right. And they're not career coaches. They're not out there drumming up the kind of business that we might be through our thought leadership. They're literally they're doing what I exactly what I want my clients to do.

Claire Davis 14:38

Yes, I really appreciate that. I'm definitely going to start following Jennifer and Annie also is Jennifer. What was her last name?

Gina Riley 14:44

David Jennifer B. Davis with a bee binder that way Yeah. And you can't miss her because her profile is exceptional.

Claire Davis 14:53

Awesome. So I love it when professionals like them and you fanned the flames. names of other people. I think that's so smart. And I also appreciate how you mentioned that it's not necessarily directly in line with just careers. Because if we're not taking in outside resources, what are we doing? We're just recirculating the same information from our industry. So I'm really that's kind of the, that was kind of the point of this podcast. I know it's today's medical sales leader. But what I really wanted to bring to the table for people was that you've, if you can think outside the box and apply new things, to medical sales that go way beyond what you're going to learn in your corporate training. Because last week, we today actually, we had Chris Bogue, who was talking about video sales strategy, we've had Brandon, who is the expert at all things public speaking, Marcus Chan who makes sales, these like beautiful relatable funnels and systems and now you telling people's careers or so powerfully in using this edification, to grow to help others and then receive that reciprocation in the end? That's the whole point. For me. I feel like if we're all doing the same thing. Yeah, we're all doing the same thing. Do you know what I mean? So like, yeah, point?

Gina Riley 16:13

Yeah. I love what you just said. And what I would add to it is, I take this holistic sort of systems approach to my ecosystem, and what I do to help them my client, my clients, so the content that I'm creating and putting out there ultimately becomes articles for my own people, like helps me not regurgitate the same stuff over and over, even in my coaching calls. I'm like, please read this article about how Jennifer Davis made her career transitions. And her and what you're listening for is leading with your sharp tool and not your swiss army knife. So I can I go and I interview someone like that with this great story on how your next executive role finds you. And so I've got eight of those. But then I find people like Lee Cara, her who I'm like, Oh, she's just smart and bold, and I just had to meet her. And so I'm putting out that thought leadership as she and Kurt the career space. Now she's got a communications company. But then I'll go interview Steve Dalton who wrote the book on, you know, the, to our job search. So finding those people connecting with them, telling them that you admire them. And you know, in a lot of cases, I let those invitations sit, I thank you for connecting Steve or whomever. And then a year or two later, when I have the energy to go read that whole book, really get behind it, understand it, reach out and say I've read your book, would you let me interview you so I can create some content, and I'm fanning their flames. They're thought leadership, and I'm bringing mine along with it.

Claire Davis 17:45

That's awesome. That's such a beautiful way to do business. And to just live, I think there are a lot of different ways that you can fan that flame. I love the way that you describe it that way. So what are some other specific ways that someone who is maybe you know, a medical sales rep or manager, they're kind of new to LinkedIn, they're not necessarily ready to start putting together a posting strategy? What are some, like fanning the flame light things that they can do?

Gina Riley 18:16

Yeah. Gosh, there's, there's so many things that a person can do. Um, one interesting approach that I take with my clients is, I'll look at who is it in their ecosystem they need to be in contact with and where do those people hang out. So it can be industry specific or functional area expertise specific. So if you're a CMO, it could be a marketing type conference, or it might be industry specific if you're in technology, but go and Google where the conferences are happening. Guess where the some of those amazing thought leaders are in the speaker list? They're on panels. They're speaking, reaching out and connecting with those kinds of people saying, Hey, I noticed you're going to speak at this conference in October. I'm attending, I'm looking forward to meeting you. Well, when you go go look them up. Warm, warm that relationship up before you get there. Yeah. And then go start developing relationships. And guess what happens? Claire, sometimes it opens up job opportunities. You don't know, you don't know what you don't know. You got to put the seeds and breadcrumbs into the ecosystem. And I have examples. So in 2000, I think it was 94, the pandemic hit, I went to the career thought leaders symposium in San Diego was my Marines enough. And it was really my first coming out party after developing my program, and I was, I was, I've looked and saw who all the speakers were, and I reached out, Hey, I'm speaking also, I can't wait to meet you and so on and so on. So I get there and now they're already looking for me. They they know I'm coming for them. I'm going to shake their hand or give them a hug. and some of those people now today, many years later, are the people that I'm partnering with, you know, those are the people I am fanning their flames, those are the people I look to, you know, that helps me influence like, when I'm doing with my coaching, it's incredible. Another way to, like, get integrated with other like minded people, as I spoke in the fall it disrupt HR. And there was like, I don't know, 12 of us 12 or 13 of us, all different HR professionals, all very different topics. So my first go to is I immediately reach out to every single one on LinkedIn, hey, we're both speaking to disrupt HR, I can't wait to meet you then have most of the people connecting with me, then I started a group message. Yeah, just to introduce people to each other, hey, we're on the same team. It's, you know, it's going to be challenging. I've done it before. Here's an article I wrote on how to prepare, and then getting like a lot of excitement and camaraderie. So we all get there. And then we're like, so good to meet you. And it feels so much more personal, you know? And then you start developing these cool side relationships.

Claire Davis 21:12

Yes. Do you? Are you a fan of Chase Hughes? Do you know that this is?

Gina Riley 21:17

I don't know, Chase, but it sounds like.

Claire Davis 21:19

So it's not and maybe it's not such a secret. But I love the concept of behavioral engineering, which is basically how do you deeply understand the motivations of why people take action, and trust you and make the decisions that they do? There's all kinds of things and chase us as a CIA, you know, retired off that now, trains on this stuff, and one of the things he talks about is exactly what you have done so naturally, which is, yeah, right, which is being the catalyst to introduce people to each other, like you putting together that chat for those people to get to know each other, and proactively reaching out to introduce them is a huge, huge authority builder. So not only is that warming it up and making people feel more friendly and open to talking with you, but it's like a true psychology science bet science based activity that you're doing. It's behavioral engineering, the ethical way, right.

Gina Riley 22:23

I like being a connector, and um, you know, much of the time it's just social capital. It's not there's no financial gain for me necessarily. Occasionally, maybe those people could become refer errs, you know, if people because they're like, I trust you, I mean, you're, you're doing what you say that you that people should be doing, you know, I'm hopefully leading by example. So I just do it naturally, because I feel like what comes around goes around. And that's that, that attitude of gratitude.

Claire Davis 22:53

Yeah. Why? I know, I feel that when you know, you and I first started talking and the way that I see that you supporting your clients and your colleagues, and when I grew up, my family had a pharmaceutical sales recruiting business. And I remember my parents always saying Claire, businesses mean, okay, like no uncertain terms, because back in the 90s, you know, now I'm dating myself. You're welcome, everybody. Now, you know my age. I definitely grew up wearing stirrup pants and I glitter anyway, we're moving on. So yeah, 100% 100%, child of the 90s. But anyway, so I mean, business was mean. And what they meant by that was not that they didn't love what they did and love their clients. But there wasn't the camaraderie, they're not in recruiting. And there also wasn't the connectivity that we have now, because recruiting was still primarily analog, it was on your phone all day. Binders, and binders and hundreds of binders of alphabetized categorized resumes. So I love the transition, because I think that what you so naturally do with people, is now something that everyone should and can have access to doing, virtually, if not in person to. So if someone was to start by trying something today, to build up that credibility and to reach out to other people to kind of get this reciprocal nature of how business can be going on, what would you recommend they tried today? Oh, gosh,

Gina Riley 24:33

I had known you're gonna tee up that question. I would have pulled up an old article, I wrote it and I have an article like the three habits that can give your career velocity is it's the first article I wrote on LinkedIn, which I was so scared to put out years ago, my very, very first one, and I had a couple people like edit it and look at him like is this gonna be okay? Yeah, and it's just so simple though. And one of the things is like spend just 10 minutes a day on LinkedIn and go make, you know, make genuine comments on people's posts and be a part of the community and stay in your lane. You know, go go comment on things that are relevant to you professionally. You know, if you don't want to see political stuff in your feed, scroll past it, you don't want to give the algorithm any tip of the hand that that's what you want to consume on LinkedIn. So go in the targeted, make comments. And when you see things that are interesting to you, you see an author who's written a book or an article, whatever, reach out, tell them tell them, Hey, I just read your book, Steve Dalton, it blew my mind. And it's going to help me and my clients, thank you for your work, please connect with me. That's it. I don't follow up with any sales pitch, I'm not going to sell anybody. I'm thank you for connecting dots. What happens then Claire right. Now we diversify our professional network on LinkedIn. And we're connected by three degrees of separation. If you're a job seeker at any point in time, now you're more findable by that many more degrees of separation based on their ecosystem. Wow. So you connect with you know, I'm part of a a group called talents group, we do executive search, and I do interview skills training for that. So I tell my clients go connect with all my peers, send them a personalized note, hey, I'm working with Gina, you don't need to like, you don't have to text me or chat with me back just connecting because now, each each of those prongs in the in in the interwebs is now bigger and more expansive. And they're the right professionals. Yeah. Because you know, they're connecting with other executives. Yep. Yeah.

Claire Davis 26:43

Oh, my gosh, wonderful. And definitely something everybody can use today. You guys, if you're not yet, following Gina make it the first thing that you do right now. I can vouch She's an inspiration to me and a huge motivator when it comes to leading business in your career, by doing the things that feel good when the timing is right, by connecting and supporting and lifting up others. We are inter doing that for ourselves and our own career. So Gina, thank you so much for joining me today. And if someone wants to find you and learn more about career velocity, where should they go? That's super easy.

Gina Riley 27:20

You just go to Gina Riley consulting and at the top, there's a green button, you clicked on the green button, and you get a 30 minute webinar and a workbook, check your spam folder. And you can print the workbook and start making your own career transition plan totally for free. No, no strings attached. But other whatever whatsoever. I can't speak. And then the other thing I would add on LinkedIn is when you reach out to connect with people, always send a personalized connection request and tell them why. And here's why. Especially if you have a title that indicates you're a salesperson, everybody's worried they're gonna get a pitch right after the connection. So note to self reach out and say, Hey, I genuinely appreciate your content. And here's the thing that I just saw, would love to connect and follow your work. Have a great day. That's it. I want to follow your work not I'm gonna follow up with a sales pitch. Yep. That is the most effective thing I think people can do.

Claire Davis 28:23

Brilliant. Brilliant. Thank you so much for sharing all that today. I know that if people implement the things that you shared the reaching out the the connecting with a message, the the edifying others, that it is certainly a way for them to unlock some more career velocity. So thank you so much. And I hope you'll come back because maybe we do a 2.0 on exactly how to send those messages so that people don't recoil, but actually invite us to engage.

Gina Riley 28:57

So absolutely. And I think we're excited might be the rocky and Marlowe show, so we'll bring our kitties.

Claire Davis 28:58

Yeah, we'll bring our cats I will not bring the stirrup pants up. And hair. Big here I can do Oh,

Gina Riley 29:09

yeah, I'm product a bat. So that was a lot of hairspray back then. And I feel really sad for the ozone. I don't do that

Claire Davis 29:16

anymore. We're sorry, isn't the we're all getting a better tan in some parts of the world. That's right. Oh, thank you so much, Gina. Have a wonderful day. And until next time, thanks for joining us.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Why you need to build a personal brand

AI-Generated Transcript below. There may be errors.

Claire Davis 0:12

Hey everybody, welcome back to the today's medical sales leader podcast. I am Claire Davis, your hostess, and I cannot wait to introduce you to the person I have here sitting with me today, virtually, it's none other than Kevin Turner. And let me tell you something when I say that personal branding is a proactive game in your career, this is somebody who truly gets it. And we were just laughing at backstage. Because was it? Did we all come into business thinking that we had to have a personal brand and then magically knowing what that was going to be? Or even look like? No. Today, we're going to demystify some of these topics up and talk through what it takes to create an incredible personal brand. That's not that hard to do. But so, so important for your career. So Kevin, thank you so much for being with me today. And welcome to the show, despite lots of technical difficulties,

Kevin Turner 21:19

their tests right, to see how good we are. And we're here and we made it. Yeah, I love being here. I have such great respect for everything that you do on LinkedIn, and you got your brand together. And it isn't evolution, right. It didn't just happen. It didn't. One day, you didn't just turn it on, and it was all there and you knew exactly what to do you, you kind of build upon, right? And you see how people react and you see what makes sense. And there's things you learn over the time. Not everybody has the time to do that. Right. And so hopefully, today, we can give people some, some shortcuts into realizing, you know, what their brand really is and what it should be, and maybe even what it is today, you know, and part of it is realizing where we're not quite making it right. Before we can fix it and make it right. So very

Claire Davis 2:09

glad to have you here. You know, before we move on, Kevin, can you tell everybody just a little bit about what your business is and what you do for other people?

Kevin Turner 2:18

Absolutely. And basically, my focus is organizational and personal branding. So helping organizations and people figuring out what your message is? And how do you get that across where your target audience is going to remember you and see you as the solution. When the time comes when their need is there. They think of Claire, right. That's what we want to do. And that's what we do with organizations and people.

Claire Davis 2:45

I love that, by the way in it right? So I might have to if the need is there, we'll come up with we'll come up with one for you by the end of the show. There we go. But you know, what's interesting is I find that many people jumped on LinkedIn, you know, in its inception, 1015 and a mouthful, almost 20 years ago. And it was this placeholder for a resume. And certainly in medical sales, which is, you know, most people who are listening to this podcast today are in some way in or related to the medical sales industry. And I'm sure at the time that you started your LinkedIn account, it was a friend told you about the social network where you could put your resume up, and you could find out about jobs, right? I mean, that's kind of how we all started before. And that's how

Kevin Turner 3:31

LinkedIn started. Exactly. LinkedIn was just that it was a place to put your profile. They call it a profile, but it's really a resume, right. And then they had places you could find jobs. And you know, that was LinkedIn. It was very, very simple. And that's when people always say, LinkedIn is the professional network for when you're looking for a job. Yeah, because that's where it started. But that's not where it is today. It's evolved. That's still going on. But that's only a small piece of it, man. So that's what's kind of exciting.

Claire Davis 4:01

Oh, totally. And, you know, it brings to mind what you said, you know, LinkedIn is the place you go when you're looking for a job, and something that I learned early in my career, which was fraught with layoffs. So if anybody listening hasn't met me yet, I am now a medical sales career coach. But the reason I do this is because I had to start over after four layoffs. So proofs in the pudding, you know, it layoffs are not the end right there. They're in fact that very much. They're the beginning. But what I learned was, if you just start looking for a job, when you need one, you're already going to be sitting on your heels. So I think what's really neat about LinkedIn is if you really start getting into the ideas that Kevin and I are going to start talking about today, you'll realize that your career is always fine. There's never really a time where you should sit back on your heels and just say, Oh, I'm good. I'm good until you know, I'll check in five years from now. And then I'll get engaged again with my network. So can you share with us a little bit about your take, and maybe what advice you would give somebody, when they are looking at and making this trend, this mental transition from this is where I go to post my resume every five years to this is where I actively continually curate my career. What do you think about that?

Kevin Turner 5:21

I think it's, it's direct on, I mean, there's no doubt, I always, there's two terms I like, and one is brand land, right. And that's where you're really going to, you're going to shape the image of what people see of you to land, but land doesn't mean land, the next job, it may mean land, the next opportunity, it may mean land, the next relationship, you know, so you want to brand the land, you know, and part of that is what, not just what you're going to present on LinkedIn, but how you're going to interact on LinkedIn. And then the other component, and this is the beauty of LinkedIn. It's a networking site. And I believe fully that networking always beats not working. If you constantly network, you never have to go find a job, the jobs find you and you're already branded, right to take that job on. It all fits together. So to me, those are critical components of really working LinkedIn. So it works for you. And it doesn't take a lot of time every day to do that. I mean, I'm on LinkedIn all the time. But that's my business, right? And you're on there a lot, that's your business. But if you're just there to kind of bring in and kind of expose your authority, right, your thought leadership, and kind of develop that reputation, that doesn't take that much time on LinkedIn. And that's one of the greatest things about LinkedIn, there's a lot of opportunity to do that. It doesn't take a lot of time and effort. But you've got to be focused, if you're not focused in what values you bring to the table that they're looking for. And you're not then making sure that's out there in a memorable way, then you won't get the results from LinkedIn that it can provide you. Yeah,

Claire Davis 7:07

you know, something interesting today. So I like to go back to where you're talking about branding for your authority. Because when I was doing a LinkedIn room, today, we're talking about LinkedIn and resumes with Virginia Franco and Canada plane, if you guys have, you know, anybody listening here, definitely go follow those people as well as setting yourself right. And they were receiving questions from the audience, and one was about the presence she should develop on LinkedIn. Well, I would argue that if you are on social media, right now, you have a brand, whether or not you have gotten out in front of that message, and been intentional about what you put out there in the world. If someone comes to your profile, they're going to see what they see. And that is your current brand. So can you walk us through, say, say you've got a medical sales rep. And they have had their resume up there for a while they haven't updated things. But they're looking to get more active on LinkedIn and develop this personal brand. What would you say to them? Who is just starting? What's the personal what's the first step they should take when they're overhauling their LinkedIn profile? And what steps they should take toward a grant.

Kevin Turner 8:21

And I think, you know, the big piece of this is, and in some way, LinkedIn created this problem, right? Because they made it so easy to create a profile. When you first start out, you can actually load your resume, and it will write your profile for you. Right, it'll put it together parse it like an ATS does, when you apply online, it puts it together and says, Here is your profile. Yes, well, that's kind of a chronological dump of everything you've done. It doesn't tell the story of where you're going, and what you can bring to the table. And so that's the first mistake. And I look at LinkedIn. And, you know, most of the branding that's out there, because you have a brand, as you said, no matter whether you've crafted it and focused it or not, you have one. And I think right now, most people have what I call a personal bland. And basically, they have again, thrown everything in the soup, right? Because they thought, oh, they need to know this, they need to know that they need to, I'm gonna throw this in, I'm gonna put that there. And they throw it all together. And they think that's my brand, because that's everything I've done. Well, people can't digest that not in the speed of digital, right? They look at that and they go, this is a mess. I don't know where this individual is or where they're going or what the potential is. And so you really got to go back before you do anything on LinkedIn and look at that and say, What do I do well, right, that companies are have high demand for that I can also prove that In the process, and then that's how you're going to start building. What is that brand? Now, there's an old adage out there that they say, your personal brand or your reputation is what people say, when you're not in the room. Right? Well, you can leave that up to chance. That's personal branding, right? They can take whatever they want, because they know me, that's not good. You want again, crafted presented, make sure it's out there. So that when you're not there, it's working for you. And that's what LinkedIn is. Because you're not on LinkedIn. 24/7 365 days, right? You're there pieces of time. But LinkedIn is either working for you're working against you.

Claire Davis 10:43

So such a good point there, whether or not you are present. And that's what

Kevin Turner 10:48

people don't realize, and you know, you you go out there and you find people on LinkedIn, they might be asleep, right? There may be at work. They're not magically right there. But you're getting an impression of them from what they've left for you to say. Now, look, profiles a piece of that, right. The other piece of that is, is their engagement on LinkedIn. And LinkedIn looks at a profile is almost like a website, right? Like, if you think of Google Google, if a website stays the same, Google moves it down in the rankings. If a website changes and adds value, Google moves it up in the rankings, right. So your profile, you don't really want to have to change the profile all the time, how you change it is how you engage on the platform. That is the change that LinkedIn says, Hey, Claire's, got something going on here, we better make sure everybody else knows. And so the engagement isn't as important, I usually suggest, find companies to follow and make sure you're actually following them. Because believe it or not, if a recruiters using talent solutions, and they bring candidates up, the ones that are following the companies are at the top of the list, ah, you're already interested, right? So at the top of the list, the other component of that, make contact within those companies, doesn't matter if it's the receptionist all the way up to the CEO, make as many contacts as you can within that organization. Because when you do things on LinkedIn, they're gonna get a little notice of that of that process, right? You'll get a notice when they do things, and you can, you can jump in and engage in that process. But again, the recruiters see that, you know, out of the five candidates, Claire's the only one with 25 connections within our company, right? So she's going to be easy to get in here. And she's going to want to stay and she's going to be a good hire. They make that assumption by your connectivity. Yes. So true. As you're you're building out that engagement. You want to keep it professional, and focused on where you want to go. But some people forget that right? They get out there and they braid instead of debate. There is a difference. You can debate. You don't break, right? Yes. And you can often agree if it's not going anywhere, you can agree, right? That, hey, we just see things a little differently. And that's okay. I still like everything else you talk about, you can do that. That's fine. People don't realize they can do that. And social media. Instead, they get into what I call pig wrestling. I don't know if you've ever heard that. Ever wrestle with a pig, right? Because the pigs enjoy it. Everybody gets dirty. I think it's a I think it's a Mark Twain, but it's so true. Don't get in there and start mucking up your brand by arguing with people or calling them names or saying you're absolutely crazy, you don't know what you're talking about. That's not going to build a positive brand for you go in and add value. Now, that's

Claire Davis 13:57

such an excellent point. And I want to stop you there for a second because now

Kevin Turner 14:01

you know that's hard to do.

Claire Davis 14:05

I'll jump in. But the reason why is because I don't want people to miss the finer points of what Kevin what you're sharing here. So number one, you got to get out in front of your message. So the first step is probably getting your profile to a place where it's representing not just what you do, but what you're going after. So can you break that apart a little bit to share, you know, when you're saying that to somebody say you've got somebody who Like recently I had a client, one of my absolute favorites, and he is a brilliant salesperson and manager in biotech sales. But he also is really excited about counseling startups through company through organizations like White House industries that are just emerging and are looking for advice on how to carry their product. to commercialization. So, in his case, once you say that he should focus more on his past experience, or the experience, he wants to go and grow next, which would be more of the VC and the counseling?

Kevin Turner

15:16

And again, it's really depends on on that person's goal, right? What is the ultimate goal? And at the same time, if you are employed by an employer, you have to keep a balance. Right? Yeah, can't look like you're spending all your time over here promoting this other component, it's got to look like it's just, you know, a bit of your time. So when you post, you know, don't do it during business hours, you know, if they can't find you for two hours, and then they realize on LinkedIn, you just had a really great post go viral, you know, right.

Claire Davis 15:51

So be careful.

Kevin Turner 15:53

Careful with it, if you want to do let's say you want to host an audio event, you might ask the boss, you know, if I did this during the week, because that's the best time at this time, could I take, you know, an hour off and host this event? And hey, by the way, would you like to be there too, because you've got great things to say, right? Yes. Makes sure it's not going to conflict with your current job. Because too many people get involved in social media and doing it at times where they think they get away with it. It's so traceable, everything you do on the internet, right? Never goes away. Somebody can see it, and somebody can start making assumptions. And you don't want to be there. So planted off business hours, do a lot of this stuff, believe it or not, weekends are hot on LinkedIn. weekends off, you can get a lot of this branding out there. There's thought leadership, you can do it on the weekends.

Claire Davis 16:46

Yes. And let's talk a little bit about the dark side of what can happen on social media as far as the trackable nature of things. So I had a client once long time ago. And the reason she came to work with me was because she had made some comments on a post. And her manager had seen those comments, didn't appreciate them. And then things sort of went south for her from there. So can we talk a little bit about maybe kind of the P's and Q's you want to mind? Or the kind of things you want to share in the comments? And also the kinds of things you'd want to avoid?

Kevin Turner 17:21

I use something I call the grandmother clause, right? Okay. If you would say it in front of your grandmother, when she's within slapping distance, right? Don't say it on LinkedIn. So she would offend your grandmother, I would say avoid it, you know, and that's in general mean, some grandmothers are different than others. But I would say in general, it's a good rule. If you don't have that, that grandmother like that, find that individual that you want to be like, and then do the same thing. Would they be offended if I said this? The other thing is, there's always that extra piece is, you know, is the squeeze worth the juice. Right? Have you ever heard that term? So you can go out there and you can make statements? And maybe you know, the statements are really strong statement, but you're not going to get much from it? Why do it? Well, especially if it hurts anybody or offends anybody, there's no reason for that, right? Because all that stuff collectively becomes the part of the brand that you can't control. You know, if you don't get it in control, so be real careful in that area.

Claire Davis 18:24

It's just like how so in this case, so for all, for all of you. Medical sales, department reps listening to this right now, or watching this live right now. It's just the same way that you wouldn't sit in a doctor's office and you know, get chatty about the doctor in front of the patient. Right? You really do still have to have nice etiquette on LinkedIn. And here's the beauty of it. Of all the social platforms that I've ever been on, Kevin and tell me if this resonates with you to the one that has the most uplifting, inspirational supportive content is LinkedIn truly. And I mean, that goes for that goes for Twitter, that goes for Facebook, I mean, for as much over there that you can find great groups. LinkedIn tends to have this vibe of business. Still a little bit, but that right, very supportive.

Kevin Turner 19:19

And he found that absolutely now it's getting a little more comfortable. A little more personality even, but it's still very businesslike, and it's still very positive in its focus. So you know, there are other platforms where you can write a lot of negative stuff, and it goes really well. It falls flat on LinkedIn. Yeah, you know, it'll have a small group. And I always say, you know, if that's the group you want, and you just want to share your own misery, that's fine. They'll find you right, and you can there and sit there and share misery. It's not going to get someone to go, Hey, that person be a great fit within our team, you know, and so Do you want to be careful? Absolutely. It's, you know, stay positive. But LinkedIn overall is, it's got to be the most positive platform out there. And it is a social platform, no matter what people call it. It is social media. It's maybe business social media.

Claire Davis 20:16

Yeah. So if somebody is just starting on to the posting part, so they've got their profile together, they have now become comfortable engaging on other's content, right, which is, that's a great place to start. So don't think you're alone. If you're uncomfortable posting content, yet, you're not alone, especially in medical sales, there are very few professionals who are leveraging this platform by being content creators. So it's a great opportunity. But if you're not quite there yet, let's say, then start commenting, but say you are and you're ready to start posting content. How do you, what would you say to somebody who's maybe new to creating content, that can create content, that is one going to go somewhere gotta get seen, and two is going to support their personal brand.

Kevin Turner 21:12

And there's a perfect kind of poll full togethers. A couple of things, you know, there are always methods, right of making content popular, you know, in that sense, you know, much like there is for writing articles in a newspaper headline, you know, if the headline doesn't grab anybody, nobody's going to read below, right? Often, I'll even write my own components. And sometimes the last line, I look at that and say, that's the best part, and I'll take it to the top and bring it back in. So you always want to look at that you want, you want to capture the interest of that audience, you want to speak to them in that sense. And that's whether you're writing it, or you're shooting a video, all of that's there. So, you know, you definitely you've got to make it exciting, that first second of any content is going to determine whether anybody, you know, reads more, click See More, and then interacts with you. Now, as you're doing this, any kind of content you're developing, you do want engagement, right, you want them to join the conversation. So you want to bring in questions, you know, does this work in your industry? You know, I've heard of so and so was doing this? Have you heard that that works, right? Ask questions, and your content in that, you know, ability to, you know, bring people in or say, hey, share what you're seeing. Right? We're interested in, what are you seeing, tell us about it, and you're bringing those people in? At that point, when they comment, you want to nurture that conversation, right? You don't want to do what people do. And that's kind of post and ghost, right? You throw a post out there, you get 20 people commenting, and you don't get back to it till the next day? Well, you have just taken what could have been a, a really good piece of content, and you have basically chopped off its reach. Because what is going to do is when you post something, no matter what it is, the responses that you get, and how you cultivate those responses, is going to tell LinkedIn, whether that's quality content or not. Yeah. And then they're going to expose it to few more people. So they start with about 2% of your network. If that 2%, it's always your most active 2%. It's up 2% likes it, they'll give it out to him like another 5% that 5% likes to give it up to 10%. If you just posted and ghosted, you wasted, that first group. And people go through an effort if they're if they're adding value to your content, you've got to return that appreciation, and make sure that you're building on that. And that's also where you're going to find a lot of people that maybe you're not connected with, that you're going to build that relationship with and you want to see, hey, you know, they were pretty smart. Clary, I have this great comment, maybe I'll start following Claire Now, add to her content. So this bit of reciprocity, when you're developing out and you're nurturing, you want to spread that beyond your own content into their content, it helps them remember, you come back, and that kind of momentum built. And that's really how things are done on LinkedIn, other platforms, really don't have those kind of gateways that you have to pass to move forward. LinkedIn does. And if you do it right, you'll have a really strong, focused audience that will come back all the time for your content.

Claire Davis 24:53

I mean, I feel like the old adage is true. People like to work with people they like, give some things don't change, right. So just The act of investing the time to leave a well thought comment on a creators post that you're interested in, people are going to notice that one, the creator is going to read every single one of those comments. I mean, until maybe they had like a million followers, and they've got a whole team behind them. But I don't know. Remember every single person who comments on my posts you better believe it, Kevin, I grateful for them. time they took one question I have for you is, how do you structure a thoughtful comment? There are three people on LinkedIn right now you are among the three that always that have a very specific way that you structure your content and your comments, rather, that I know you do strategically. So can you talk a little bit about the strategy behind what you have in every one of your comments? Because it's consistent every time you comment?

Kevin Turner 25:56

Well, there are a few things, I guess, you know, one of the things you want, you want to absolutely thank them for adding value, right? Yeah, I always sign off with keep rocking LinkedIn, you know, that's a hashtag. I sign off with that people do follow the hashtag because of the sign off. But it also helps it stand out visually, right. But you definitely want to address what they've added into the conversation. And if you can you build upon it, you complement it, you might even add some more to it. Especially if they have questions, because often I'll get questions in mind. And so you want to give them really a robust answer, not a yay or nay. Maybe you know, you give them what they want. Yeah. And often you'll find you'll, you'll be saying sometimes the same thing quite often. So you can copy that, put it in a document, right? have it available. So oh, they asked that, let me go and pull that out. Here's the answer. You put it in there. And then you write it with a little bit of personality to that individual. And it becomes their, you know, answer, right, even though we're using reusing some components. But that's really important. And I do you believe in getting those done as quickly as you can, right? respond to them as quickly as you can. You can you know, I also always mention when when I say mentioned, all the other social media sites call that tagging, right? I also mentioned their name. So what that does is a couple of things. People like to see their own name. It's like, what they said the sweetest sound is the sound of your own name, right? Yes. One of the sweetest sights, right is your name. People love it. And they go, Yeah, cool. It helps them it notifies them. But it also says, Hey, I respect what you're doing for me, and what you're doing in the community. And I'm going to, you know, put that in there. And I'm going to hotlink it right back to you. There's just something really nice about it. And people do respond. People ask me, Why do you do that all the time. And let's take a lot of extra work. It's a microsecond to put that app sign in front of the name and, you know, click it and move it forward. And then it's hyperlinked. To me that it's a big piece of honoring.

Claire Davis 28:08

I mean, how many LinkedIn messages would you ballpark that you get every day?

Kevin Turner 28:14

As far as comments?

Claire Davis 28:17

Like messages and notifications? Probably?

Kevin Turner 28:20

Oh, yeah. Easy peasy. Yeah, in messaging, at least, hundreds in messaging, hundreds and notifications, yet really fast at getting through a lot of it, because a lot of it isn't all that important. You know, but the people are important. So to me, you know, when when it's a person really need something, then you want to get to those really quickly, if it's just, you know, random notifications. And LinkedIn seems to do a great job of filling your box up with those.

Claire Davis 28:50

So and so like to post that you flip right on by I get this anonymous person looked at your profile? Yes. I know that. I know. It's so funny. But you know, honestly, I have to say, one thing that's changed for me this year, and my husband, if they were standing here with us during this interview, is that, you know, a few years ago, if I would have said oh yeah, my friend from LinkedIn, he would have looked at me really sideways like a friend from LinkedIn, what do you like they work at LinkedIn. But in I mean, very honestly, I have met some of the most wonderful people and the fact that we are chatting like you and I are chatting three, four times just this last never met in person. Right? But truly, relationships are real on this platform. And so take that time to invest in those people. I mean, it's it's that you do become friends.

Kevin Turner 29:51

And we have friends all over the world. It's amazing and and you know what if you showed up on their doorstep and said I need a place to stay, they'd say sure. You gotta sit on the couch. But good, good point where they you know, it is it is a real relationship. Yeah, if you cultivate it that way, right, and you respect it that way. And that, to me is just amazing that that can be done on LinkedIn. And it can be turned into opportunity into business. And people don't realize that that they think, oh, that's just you know, that's a loose, you've never met that person before. It's like, I've been on LinkedIn since 2005. I've had people who come back to me 10 years later, and say, I've been reading, you know, your, your posts, and this and that, and the other, and I want to do business with you, or I've got this opportunity, or I've got a friend that I'm going to refer to you. It's like, how do you refer anybody to me? If we've never done anything? Like, I already know you? And so it really is there it does exist? And I think that's one of the the greatest, shall we say features of LinkedIn, as you can build those relationships? And, you know, they do add value?

Claire Davis 31:06

Yes. And you know, what, I think, at least for those watching and listening to this podcast, if you're in medical sales, pitch, I know, I sound like a broken record. But I want you to know how, how very seriously, this does actually apply to this particular industry. If you think about it, this is the first generation of physicians, decision makers, providers who grew up with this in their hand. Okay, so it's, they are there, your clients are on LinkedIn. And just like Kevin saying, I mean, if you have some, if your presence is there, if your brand is not bland, and it's on LinkedIn, you've gotten ahead of your message, and at least put your stake in. So here I am, here's what I'm all about. People will find you. And people still want to work with people that they like. And so it's an it's incredible to me how solid relationships can be built on LinkedIn, and how many people are already checking you out before you even realize it. Just yesterday, I spoke with a woman who has been following me for two years. And we've never spoken. I don't even think she's ever commented on a post of mine. But she felt like she knew me through my personal branding. And I think that everybody has access to that. And it's not magic. It's stuff that you can learn every day for myself and Kevin, for all kinds of people on LinkedIn who share so openly. So let me ask you this. And before we wrap up here, Kevin, did you think you were going to go into business as a LinkedIn trainer? Or did it find you for one reason or another?

Kevin Turner 32:45

You know, I've I've been doing LinkedIn training since 2005. Oh, wow. Okay, I started originally as a giveback. Right, I would go to groups that were meeting churches, all sorts of places that, you know, they would have groups of four or 500 people. And I would teach them about LinkedIn, and why it was important to have a LinkedIn profile, and how do you make that work for you? You know, and there's all sorts of little extra little people call them hacks. I don't know what you want to call them. But there's all these little extra angles that you can work that have great benefits. So I would do that. And what would normally happen is you get this group of couple 100 people. And about three days later, somebody would call you and say, Hey, Kevin, this is so and so I was at, you know, blah, blah, blah, the meeting and you said this, what did you mean by that? And I'm be like, tell me a little more, because I'm not so sure you got the notes, right. Basically, hey, could you help me do this? And I'd say, Yeah, okay, you know, let's do it. And, you know, sometimes we're charged sometimes I wouldn't, depending on the situation they were in, right. And ultimately, I started to do that as kind of like a weekend thing and afternoon, you know, kind of thing. You know, it was like a side gig. And there was a time in my life. I was running my life. I was running the American Heart Association's international emergency cardiovascular care unit. And I actually took them into 150 countries built the offices in, in Hong Kong and United Arab Emirates, and Belgium, in Puerto Rico, to Latin mirror hired older people. I was traveling 80% of my month, I was home one weekend, a month and I was on the wrong side of the clock, because I'd been two weeks or whatever that was. And I said, you know, we've got to stop. I gotta slow down. Life is moving too fast. I'm missing too much of what's going on with the kids and my wife and I, we said, you know, let's do something together and let's build a business together. And you're doing all this stuff on LinkedIn, and she's been a writer for many Many years, and we said, let's, let's pull it all together and create a business. And so we did and haven't looked back. So it's been about a little over 10 years. It's fantastic, you know, the opportunities that it has afforded me and the flexibility and some of the time I was able to gain back and a little less travel at a time when travel was getting a little dangerous. That was appreciated as well. But that's how it kind of evolved, I didn't know it was going to happen, you know, it started as a give back became a little side gig. And then we decided, this is so much, we're gonna go ahead and do this. And you know, throughout my career, I've probably had six pivots, in my career, where I decided I don't want to do this anymore, I want to do something else. I was, you know, fortune 50 with Sony for many, many years. And then into Sony Qualcomm, left that to go to venture capital and was a VP and venture capital, you know, went into turnarounds, corporate turnarounds, you know, as a thing and beauty of a turnaround, there are a lot of fun, they're like a startup. But there's an end to it, like a lot of startups do. So you ramp up, you spend a lot of time and then you got to find the next one. So I said, You know what, I'm gonna go into this kind of fortune 50 nonprofit, which was American Heart Association to turn around that division. And then I just said, I'm going to do it for myself. And so life is like that. But every pivot, in my process, I've always been able to make the change, because of the way I branded myself was to understand the values I had, what I could bring to the table with solutions, and then focus that marketing. And so if anybody wants to make that change, that's how you do it. And, you know, I've been able to prove it in my own career. I'm not just saying it works. Right, we're able to actually make it work. And you know, that's different, I think. So that's, that's, I guess what? I don't know. That's the essence of it. Right?

Claire Davis 37:03

Yes. Yeah, you did it, you leveraged it, you know, and, and I completely resonate when I was in the field and moving between companies, my clients would still call me, even if I wasn't still at the company where I originally was serving. And we call it going beyond the name tag. Because that's truly what your personal brand is all about. It's all about who you are as a professional and the value you bring whatever that through lime is, despite whatever name tag you're wearing, that's your personal brand. And then once you learn to leverage that the sky's the limit. And just like you have you developed your business on it, you could pivot it where you needed to, to let the right people know, hey, I'm open for business. And here's the kind of solution that I am ready to deliver you right now. So I love that you use this in your own life. And I love that you started a business with your wife. That's wonderful.

Kevin Turner 37:56

Not easy, it can be done.

Claire Davis 38:00

Okay, I cannot thank you enough for being here with us today. Thank you so much. And for everyone who is not already obsessed with your content and all the value you deliver like I am, where can they find you today?

Kevin Turner 38:15

You can always find me on LinkedIn, my LinkedIn URL is fairly easy like everybody else. It's linkedin.com/in, right slash president. And I set that up many years ago. And now every time they search for who's the president of LinkedIn, I'm in the search results. I'm thinking someday they're gonna take it away. But that's where you'll find me. Seven D and I put the D in there Turner because there's a lot of other famous Kevin DS and I don't want to get confused. So you know, that's the other way to find me. And TNT brand strategist is the company so I'm loving it.

Claire Davis 38:54

Well, thank you so much, you guys. You want to tap into turning your personal land into a personal brand and really harnessing the authority that you have in your career and how you can better serve people and connect with people socially because of it. Follow Kevin here, he will not steer you wrong. So thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you everybody for listening to another episode of today's medical sales theater and we will see you next time.

. Transcribed by https://otter.ai

How to Create and Support Ecosystems

AI-Generated Transcript below. There may be errors.

Claire Davis 0:20

Hello, everybody, and welcome back to another episode of today's medical sales leader. And I am absolutely thrilled to bring you my guest today because she and I recently met on LinkedIn. And Jessica here is one of the foremost leaders in the med tech space and her way of thinking about the future of healthcare, and the passion that she brings behind it. So, Jessica, thank you so much for joining me today. I'm so glad to have you on the show.

Jessica Zampedri 0:47

Yeah, thanks so much for having me. I'm so happy to be here.

Claire Davis 0:50

Awesome. So Jessica Zampedri, she is a passionate leader with a medical sales background. And she is looking to apply her expertise in multiple ways to get her impact. She's passionate about figuring out how to help surgeons thrive on multiple levels, which is wonderful, because so often we think about health care in itself and selling products and hitting quota. And we can forget about the real true needs of our customer, the surgeon right and so many other people surrounding that circle of care. And she is led by curiosity and his work in a various in various different sectors of healthcare surrounding surgeons in the LR out of the O R, which gives her an incredibly unique perspective. She's a mom, she's a boy mom, which I am super passionate about, as well as I am a boy Mom, it's a special club we're in. And she's also in, right. And she's also interested in helping medtech companies create new categories that will lead to greater patient impact. So I don't know if there is a better description of somebody who should be who is meant to be in this business. But I'm so glad that you're here. And if for anybody who's not already following just like make sure that you do that today. So the first thing I want to jump into here is can you tell us a little bit about your story? And what drove the passion that you have for what you're doing? Yeah, so

Jessica Zampedri 2:15

I think part of it, it's like the double edged sword. So I have been a patient in many facets of healthcare over the years. So I was a teenage mom at 16, my son almost died in like childbirth. So like we were in that NICU for about eight to 12 weeks on the patient end. And then a car accident that led to a spine surgeon and a surgery were three years I mean, I was going through a system on a spine surgery and and working in that industry as well. And you see both sides of the coin so much differently, where when you're in a patient, and as well as looking at it from a sales and you really see all of these things that are dysfunctional and not working, and how all of those things at the end of the day affect the surgeon where we like to sometimes put them on a pedestal like they're this insanely, or super intelligent individual, and they are but they're just as human as everyone else, if not, like more pressure than everyone else in the world. So when you look at all of these things, and then you have like something like COVID happen where you just at least for me, like you want to help fix it in some way. And you realize that, like you can have so much impact on sales and far more than you can on other ends. Like when I was in college, I thought I was going to be pre med. I was pre med I thought I was gonna go to med school. Oh, totally wanted to do surgery, I was an EMT, like throughout those years had all the patient care hours. I wanted to divorce my ex more than I wanted to medical school when I graduated, and so then fell into medical sales. I think you choose your heart and at that point, like single mom of two kids, figuring out how to be in an office at nine and then leaving at five and doing like sick days and snow days. Like that just boggles my mind where the medical sales was this kind of this perfect arena where I got to still satisfy like the passion that I had for health care even then, but also, it at least seemed a lot more flexible.

Claire Davis 4:35

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Jessica Zampedri 4:37

And, and it's funny because talking to friends, like they look at my jobs and they don't see flexibility and they see like Insanity. And I'm like you choose your heart. It seems so much better when you've kind of got a little bit more control of your day.

Claire Davis 4:53

Yeah, absolutely. You know, I think it's interesting because depending on what kind of sale you're in, so if you're in med tech or you're in something where you're in the O R, and you've got to be on call that can seem really restrictive. But there are all kinds of there's a, there's a huge spectrum of different kinds of medical sales. So like diagnostic, for example, sometimes I need to be in the ER, but a lot of times, we were out of the office. So, but it's still I see choosing your heart as something very self aware. To do. So when you were if we could go back a little bit to when you were, you know, going through the ICU experience, the NICU experience, you know, what was it about that time that or maybe what were you noticing about the providers there that made you say, this could be done better?

Jessica Zampedri 5:45

You realize, like I said, all the time, it's like good apple, bad system, good apple, bad barrel, and eventually good apples turn brought, and they turn bad. And you see that a lot within healthcare, where you have surgeons and practitioners and health care workers, they become jaded. And we like to say the term cheated, when in reality, like on the inside, like, you know, it means like, little bit like shark or all of these things. But it's, it's really, because a lot of the time, it's it's a system issue, where you and I have surgeons who I love dearly. And they know that if they can go into a hospital and raise their voice and demand things that are done in a certain way, like there's better, there's a better chance that that patient will be safer in their surgery. Yeah. Does it make it right? No. Does it make it the most optimal for patient outcomes on an entirety and team communication? No. But if that's the system that they're putting in, that's the situation that gets them results, it then becomes more of this pattern. And you do you get jaded physicians that have always, especially highly in the past, like three or four years when I've been working exclusively with surgeons is like, I just want to do everything in my power to be able to fix that to make it easier because when I was in the NICU, you saw the such a difference on like a patient and have the care that you experience when you've got a surgeon that's still not jaded, they're compassionate, they're caring they're engaged, versus the one that's checked out. Right.

Claire Davis 7:31

Right. And the sad thing that I see as well, is that, you know, the ones who generally aren't jaded, right, they're new. Right. And that's not that that's the sad part, but but that they have more to learn more to grow. And oftentimes, you know, the folks who are jaded are the ones who've got 2030 years of practice under their belt, they've got things down to a very exact procedural science. And it was really sad to see hospital systems after COVID not able to support those surgeons who had delivered so many decades of exceptional experience, and thus lose them. So and then there was this great hemorrhage of wonderful, incredible talented people, surgeons who had had it, you know, so So I see that, and I wish there was more support there.

Jessica Zampedri 8:31

Yeah, there is. And that's like, probably about two years ago, I can't believe we're like three years out of COVID. And one of my favorite surgeons like this guy, just he The epitome is like everything you could think of like a great individual, compassionate, caring, he spends time with his patients, and like, his surgical skill is impeccable. And after getting a product in and selling, we were just talking, I was talking to one of the executives who loved me, and we were just figuring out some flows in the practice. And he was we were talking about how good of a surgeon this guy was. And then this executive was like, Yeah, we love him. Too bad. He's going to be just like the rest of them in five years. Meaning like, he's was like five years out of fellowship, or five years out of the things just got out of like his second fellowship, where they loved him, but it was like, we're gonna bank on the system to break him and like, we're just gonna let that be the thing. And he is one of those individuals that like kind of just represents like, all of those surgeons were like, it was like a hit to my gut where I'm like, if I don't figure out like how to be valuable to help that. If this guy really did become that jaded, it would be like a little bit of a knock on my faith and you Humanity because he is just totally the opposite of that right now. And I think to what I tend to see, especially in the spine surgeon arena is that they'll get burnt out, but they're not usually the ones leaving health care, like you have a lot of physicians that are leaving healthcare. And then surgeons, it's, it's scarier like their whole identity is around doing the surgeries and the surgeries and how they are on this hierarchy scale that I think it's a lot harder to just walk away from that, versus some of the primary cares and things like that. And so they stay in, and then they get jaded, and they stay in. Mm hmm.

Jessica Zampedri 10:49

Where do you think that someone? Oh, well, do you think that it would need to be something where the surgeons are able to be supported individually? Or do you think that it would need to start with the actual health care program that are part of first, I think it's

Jessica Zampedri 11:07

various, I think part of the frustrations within the healthcare arena is that we've put all of the burden on the individual to kind of like fix it, or to fix burnout, and all of these things, when, in reality, if we don't look at the other pieces, and truly try to transform them, like there's only so much that can go there. Coupled with I think we tend to do more like self care, burnout, where if we really kind of supported that physician in a leadership way, we're we're teaching him leadership and everything that goes under there, as well as like he business and like, the information about healthcare where like, they tend to practice medicine, but not really know much about the business of medicine. And so part of the like, reason we're kind of in a crap show with healthcare is because they haven't had seats at the table, where the solutions that physicians come up with, are so much astronomically better than anyone with just an MBA comes up with.

Claire Davis 12:17

I think it's interesting, it's like a, it's a real fine balance. Because the providers I know who stay in it for the long haul, they are wired differently than folks who are really focused in business minded. And the solution almost, you know, back in the 90s, in the early 2000s, when managed care really became the way that healthcare was done, you know, they, they were a part of the conversation, but not enough. And instead of it being this cohesive, you know, yin and yang, right provider and administrator together, a lot of times, I do see that it's so much more heavily based on the administration, and the business minded decision making, that the true essence of health care, and managing and creating the flow of health care from a provider standpoint, gets really diluted. And I really hate to see it. So you know, you, you and I were talking about ecosystems a little bit before we started. And one of the things that I think for everybody here watching many of you are in medical sales, right, or in health care of some kind. And I think that there is a shift, business wise, of course, where when we go to sell our product, we're trying to sell the enterprise system, like we're trying to sell and get capture the entire hospital with all of our goods, which I think from a sales standpoint, that makes sense from a business standpoint, that makes sense. But it's not always with the providers best interests at heart, it's truly, you know, for capturing the business of the health of the the health system. So do you think that there is a different way that ecosystems should be implemented with medtech? Maybe if we get specific about this, and what that look like?

Jessica Zampedri 14:19

Yeah, so I think part, there's a real opportunity to now because you have so many more independent distributors that are at play. And I think that if you do it, right, like definitely don't side non competes. You can negotiate your way out of those. You can carry various things that a surgeon needs and help build their kind of ecosystem that way, as well as like New Jersey, for example. For that ecosystem to really work, you have all of these various components of healthcare, you've got workman's comp, PII attorneys, you have referral sources and all of these and if you can It actually truly help a surgeon build business that not only helps your hardware and med tech sales because you're increasing surgical value, but you're bringing value in a different way because they don't have the time. And so if you're just playing in this hardware space, it's it's not as lucrative long term or as valuable. But it also like not for nothing gets a little bit boring, you're siloed, you're in this ultra competitive field, where if you start playing in an ecosystem game, and you start looking at RCM, or like ASC management, like or radiology, like all of these different players that are all part of this continuum of care, you get to broaden the scope and bring so much more value into the physician's office, which makes you astronomically less indispensable. One of the top complaints that I've got from the guys that have been in the industry for years is they now have kids, they have kids, they can't go out partying or two dinners every night. And they're constantly getting overturned by a new rep who can. And so single mamas two kids, I never wanted my relationships, all banked on how many times I can go out drinking or taking a surgeon out. Because you realize that when your product is negligibly different, that relationship capital is huge. But it can be easily overturned.

Claire Davis 16:38

Ooh, you've hit one of my very favorite topics, which is, you know, introducing products that matter? Because I think we're both very in tune with the fact that there are a million iterations of essentially the same software's hardware and services out there. And while I, I see why it's done, you know, back to the enterprise model we were talking about, you know, you've you say you've captured Cedar Sinai, and you need to offer something your competitor doesn't? Or does, because you've just got to have it. And then you've put your stamp on the exact same product. Who does it really serve? And so I really appreciate your more global thinking about this, because I think it's where healthcare has to go. And if not, we're all going to keep banging our heads against the wall, on why there are massive layoffs for companies who are trying to bring people aboard to sell the same iteration of a project to the same customer. And we're, we're in this hamster wheel. Yeah. So what do you think the first step is for people to one may? Well, let's start with supporting physicians with what they really need. But how does somebody find that out?

Jessica Zampedri 18:01

What do you suggest curiosity and actually listening where I mean, I have one individual that she sells hardware, she's incredible, she has made it a point to be curiosity, like insane eyes and ears open in that or to identify exactly when they're complaining about a product or complaining about the delivery of something that's not her bag to figure that out. So she can bring it in. So like, that's how she's bringing value. I've got another distributor who I work with and grow with. And their huge model is essentially like how can we increase their relationship capital with other key referral partners that they need, but don't necessarily have the time to do themselves. So they go out and get those relationships for the attorneys and the Cairo's and the physical therapies, and they bring together like dinners that actually help all of this flow more so that they're bringing value on a business. And I think, especially if you have a pool of customers, it's truly listening past just your product. And then if you are a direct rep, like your hands are a little bit tied to and what you can actually benefit financially from that. But it's, you can still make ecosystem merger relationships with the other key reps within there. And you realize, too, that when you do that when you're there catalyst and connector for introducing them to these other relationships, it in turn makes you more valuable.

Claire Davis 19:40

Oh my gosh. Yes, sir does and and people in your physicians will thrive? It will mean physicians, administrators, people working in that or everybody involved. It means that they don't have they have someone to rely on that's a greater resource than Even what they're expecting, I was just working with a gentleman last month, and he was in hot water with his boss, because his numbers went down for the quarter. But the reason being was his major accounts out in LA, were having trouble with their EMR, I, I forget what JMR it was maybe epic or something. But anyway, there was something where the information that they were putting in didn't translate to what they needed to get to identify which, which, which implant to use. And so he said, You know what, I'm, okay, I'm going to come in, I'm going to, I'm going to take the latter half of every day for three weeks, and I'm going to come in, we're going to go through this together, because I'm rather tech savvy, and I'm going to help you. And we'll just figure it out together. And they're like, well, oh, are you with the epic? Rep? No, no, I just see that there's a need. And I really do care about you and what we're doing here. So like, why wouldn't I help you. And, you know, he got in hot water, because it wasn't directly related to his sale, right. And it wasn't him achieving the number for the month. But I mean, sure, shooting, that guy is going to be a memorable resource for everybody, he touched there. And, you know, I think that is something that we can be blinded by sometimes when we feel so pressured with quotas with getting on that stage every January. And, and forgetting what this is all about in the first place.

Jessica Zampedri 21:41

And I think coupled with that, like I see it all the time, the managers that are in that situation, they're also the ones that are a very old school, they got to walk into offices, like they could just walk in and talk to the office manager. And it's detrimental to the new individuals coming in, because the industry was built on what I call stalking, and access. Like when I first started, like, my manager is on like, distributors were like to us just sneak into the or, like, just sneak into the hospital, like just stand by there and like just essentially like wait for this surgeon or like stand outside by the parking lot. Yeah, and it, it just seems like a horrible way to do sales, like your your entire sales is gonna be like around stalking, right. And then I realized too, that like, not only was that their furlough in, they could really walk into offices, because that was the time. But it was also coupled with the fact that a lot of them got into the business, and we're giving a book of business, they were given these surgeons, and you had to grow those surgeons. But if you ask them to sell from a completely an utterly new, clean state of territory, many of them couldn't. And so then you get into like, issues because you're like, Well, how do I sell new because if your methods aren't working, and you've never really even newly sold, then you also don't see the incredible value of someone doing like the individual that you just talked about, like there's a huge value in that for future sales. But if it's almost like that, like healthcare so bad, because we love the saying it like we've always done it this way. Right? I think that saying is very huge in med tech as well.

Claire Davis 23:46

Yeah. So if you had to say, Okay, we're going to try this fresh sale, we're going to we're going to freshen up the approach, we're no longer going to rely on poaching, talk to yourself inside those swinging doors, right? And listen, I remember those days, and oh my gosh, it was before they implemented like rap tracks and VCs and all those programs to kind of see where everybody was at. And it was sort of like a, you know, you just you just find any opportunity that there was in fact, I remember a gentleman I worked with at one point and he would join the gyms where he knew his physicians worked out I was like, a famous nothing crazier approach guy. But listen, I mean, that was That's the deal. It's it's extremely competitive. You know, things that are high ticket often are and it can get in the way of making smart decisions, balanced decision, fresh approaches, using fresh approaches, that really would make you more successful long term. You know, so, so what's the first thing people should do? You know, anybody listening here who's thinking Okay, I'm going to try this ecosystem approach. They can go in and be an incredible listener, right? Like your your friend who is becoming an incredible observer and the or What's something else that you'd recommend people try?

Jessica Zampedri 25:15

I think we have such an opportunity with like LinkedIn, LinkedIn has been a huge thing like digital sales process. Absolutely. It should be on the back of skills that you learn LinkedIn, like Omar has got a great great program for like LinkedIn Sales networking effect, Matthew has an amazing program for video email sales.

Claire Davis 25:33

So Jess, we were talking about the the other things people can do to tap into the kinds of selling you're talking about. So we started with listening and observing. And then you mentioned, Matthew Ray Scott, who's got his incredible video program, Omar with his sales programs as well. So what what other things should people be looking at?

Jessica Zampedri 25:55

I think the huge thing too, is as you grow linked, and you're gonna find these other key ecosystem partners that you can work with that are like 16 degrees to what everyone else is doing. And as you do that, you will realize that, like you have the influence to get those relationships and talk because you have the relationship capital. And so when you have the relationship capital, and then you're doing it on a value based thing, that opens the door, to then get either a referral partner or just like another key in this ecosystem, have someone that you trust to then bring into the surgeon's office to Claire Davis 26:41 what are some partnerships that you've seen work really well for you?

Jessica Zampedri 26:46

Over the years, I'm so used to be like biologics. Now, the hardware guys that I have also have biologics DME is a huge one, like racing bone stems, or all other key components, our CM, so revenue cycle management company is law firms, because if you're in a state that has personal injury, or workman's comp, they're gonna be using attorneys. And so helping broad that revenue, revenue or referral source is also huge. And then you get like these out of the box solutions, you have so many things that are trying to make healthcare better. So like, I've just partnered with provato health. So they're a smart ASE management company, where they're completely kind of changing that space, or marketing. physicians offices usually are awful at marketing and this kind of new way. And it's interesting, because I think it's twofold. We had an industry that kind of, like, they would just upgrade someone from the office to handle marketing. So like if skills weren't there, and then they kind of just had a bunch of outside marketers kind of sell them this huge bill of lies or like marketing lingo, it's never actually revenue generated, coupled with you've actually have federal laws that make it so that you can't just give a commission based on the patients that come in. And so like you have this landscape, so also, like marketing partners that actually specialize in physicians offices are huge. And just all of those key components are so much like key to the, to the whole playing field.

Claire Davis 28:36

I, you know, I was just talking to Seth turned off about that. And, you know, one of the things we always joked about was when I was in marketing for health care, it's exactly as you described, okay. And it's not that we were trying to be slimy and unreal about expectations, but there was really not a way that you were able to track the billboard on i 80, East to how many people walked in the door.

Jessica Zampedri 29:07

So I really got into SEOs. And like I joke now where I know just enough to be dangerous about it. And everyone is going to be using this same SEO. So it's really a who's paying more money that month for it, because it's not like we have 50 variations of the word orthopedic or a certain surgery that patients are actually going to find and look for where it's it's similar or they don't even know that they're all of these clicks from their website. 90% of them are from India, and they don't do international surgeries. So there's so many things there that when you spend time in the practice and the O R, you will naturally find issues and problems and then the then next step should be like you figuring out if there's already a solution for it, because a lot of the times, there could be, they just don't know about it, or they

Claire Davis 30:09

they just don't know about it, or they don't have time to go explore modern marketing methods, you know, we, we were very close to the heart practices out here in in the Spokane area. And oftentimes when we see, you know, transplants, they were flying all the way from Montana, to Washington, you way out, you know, they were going all the way out to Seattle, we have a transplant program right here in town, which is would literally cut that lifeline in half, you know, but the marketing isn't there. And so the referring physicians don't know. And the physicians who do the transplants aren't able, with the time that they're allotted with the massive influx of people right now, coming to the hospital for them to go build those referring relationships. So I love the I love how you're empowering people who are in the situation with their providers, to be observers, and to get curious, because I don't think and you know, if you're listening, and you're, you're like, Claire, you're crazy, like, yes, we already do this, let me know. But I didn't feel when I was in the field in or that it was my place to support the health system or the business of my physicians, I was focused on my number, because that's where I was making my paycheck to pay my mortgage. So I love that you're empowering people to have this broader effect in business. Yeah.

Jessica Zampedri 31:41

And I think like, it gets a lot easier when you're independent. Like, it's scary. But you're you had to, there's so much more leeway, and you being able to really do what's right for your surgeon versus what's good on a piece of paper for corporate.

Claire Davis 32:00

Yeah, yeah. Oh, it's powerful. And it's, you know, it's it's refreshing to, because I think what you're doing is bringing the future of healthcare to now. And I'm excited to see some of these partnerships forming in what you're doing. So tell us a little bit about, you know, if someone wants to get in touch with you today, or if they want to want to hear more about I know, you've got your podcast with Becky Wolf, who's also an amazing powerhouse woman in this space. So what else are you working on? And where can people connect with you?

Jessica Zampedri 32:33

Yeah, so one of the huge things that I'm doing with Calgary law is we're trying to figure out like how we bring influence mastery into surgeons. So we're building out things in that arena, and just looking at like leadership, and surgeons and communication and all of these things. So that's something that I'm working on, just looking at how to support the surgeon, past just pieces that like you can financially benefit on, but like truly solving a system because I think they are in the best position to change healthcare if we actually gave them the skills that they need. And so that's a huge one. And then as far as contacting me, LinkedIn is probably the best and easiest source.

Claire Davis 33:16

Awesome, well dressed. I can't thank you enough for being here with me today. I love what you're doing in this space. And I think that, you know, when you meet when when I first met you on LinkedIn, I thought there's a woman who's starting a movement, and I'm so thrilled to see where it takes you and where it takes the rest of healthcare. So this is awesome. Thank you for spending time with us today. If you guys haven't yet, please follow connect with Jess, check out what she's doing online. Help her help us be a part of the movement of changing and fixing health care for good. And until next time. Have a wonderful day. Thanks for joining us.

Jessica Zampedri 33:53

Thank you Claire.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

The importance of having a stylist on your side

AI-Generated Transcript below. There may be errors.

Claire Davis 0:12

One Hey everybody, and welcome back to another episode of today's medical sales Insider. And today I have one of my favorite stylists with me. She took me from bland and ordinary in just a couple of videos to a really confident and professional style in my working life. So I am so excited to be here with her today. I know a lot of times when I'm speaking with medical sales representatives about how they could show up better on video and serve their clients in this new hybrid world we're all living in the next question is, okay, what do I wear? What do I wear between going on a zoom call with my physicians and then meeting somebody in a conference room? So today, I'm so excited to be here with Basia, if you wouldn't mind, please introduce yourself and tell us about who you are and what you do for people.

Basia Richard 1:09

Of course, well, thank you for having me. As you mentioned, my name is Basia Richard style has been doing this for a really, really long time started as a celebrity stylist. So I've done a lot of different celebrity styled them for different projects, everything from red carpets, to editorials to advertising, music, videos, you name it, I've done it. And then I sort of a that was in my, I would say mid to mid 20s to early 30s, I got really tired of serving a lot of busy, busy celebrities, and I kind of want it to, you know, work for my own and work on my own schedule. And what I have found is that a lot of women who are intrapreneurs, like I was as a stylist, obviously, I had my own business, I was running my own service, business, and then based business, they needed help as well, in order to look professional in order to look presentable look put together and trustworthy. So those type of elements were looking for in the start of, you know, since I doing it for myself, and I've done so many things. In a past, this is sort of the path that I took. And also, you know, that also kind of took me on a different journey of seeing the real transformations of real women who actually need that it's just not another dress on another event. Just to take a father, you know, so this is definitely much more CarNet Happy journey, that I can just call it that way.

Claire Davis 3:01

That's great. And you know, what I love about you is that you share your from your own experience. I mean, you've been in the back room when you're trying to sell someone together before an event, right? And get that on that outfit just right for the red carpet. But now, I mean, you do so much more than that, even for people like me just solopreneurs right. I mean, for one thing, I remember the very first video I ever watched, I think it was over on YouTube. So if you guys aren't following Glasha on YouTube right now, definitely make it the next thing you do after this podcast. But I remember thinking, this woman is gonna save me money. Because then when I go to buy something and add to my wardrobe, I'm not shooting in the dark anymore. And now I can make sure I get select pieces that really speak to what I'm doing in business who I am as a person, and I'm not having to refill an entire closet because now I look at my closet in an entirely new way. So when you're working with your clients, did they are they feeling the same things? Are they saying gosh Basha like, now I'm looking into my closet with fresh eyes. Is that something you see?

Basia Richard 4:08

Absolutely. Yeah, that's the one thing what exactly what you mentioned, a lot of times, you know, that's one of these objective objectives. I hear working with stylists cost a lot of money. But in the end game, what happens is that you really have somebody on your side who tells you what to buy, what not to buy, where to invest, where to save in order to actually have the wardrobe that you're going to wear because most of the time my clients have all this wardrobe behave all those clothes, but then they you know, they feel self conscious. Does it look good on me? I don't know. Do I look presentable they question themselves, you know, they were have a feel like we were amazing up by the end of the day. It's like I'm paying this looks good. So you know that extra pair of eyes. It's helping them like you mentioned to save money because then you're not buying just a random piece of that just, you know, throw it in your closet and hoping you're gonna wear it one day, or you're not really questioning, you're looking kind of worrying about it. Just put an outfit if you're not sure, I always say send it in a Facebook group, we have a Facebook group for my clients, and I always reply, so. It's definitely it's definitely saving a lot of money. And, most importantly, making you feel like, you have a wardrobe that actually knows me making you look presentable making you look trustworthy and feel actually good in what you're wearing. Right? Because you're not feeling good. It's just gonna be kind of, you know, sitting in front of that camera and zooming like, an unknown do I? is the how's this color looks like on I don't know, maybe the necklace to break like you just kind of question yourself, right?

Claire Davis 6:03

Yes. Yes, exactly. Well, and you know, for everyone who's listening to this podcast, the majority of men and women here are in medical sales. So when you're in front of that physician, whether you're in the or, or you're on a camera, you know, speaking to them over zoom, or Microsoft Teams, or whatever it is, you can't afford to be worrying about your outfit, that already has to be done way on the front end. So that when you are in that moment, you can focus on the clinical aspects of what you're selling, connecting with that physician and impacting the patient's life that's on the other end of that discussion. So I really love how you take this mystery off the table for us, because I know, I can't be the only one here who has sat in her closet and stared for 30 minutes, and then ended up walking out with my hands up in the air. Like I don't know, when I'm going to where I'm more confused than when I went in. So can you kind of break it down for us because I remember seeing something you posted a year ago. And it was about the staples that you that everybody needs in their closet. So can you talk a little bit about a couple of staple pieces that will help a professional woman or man but you know, right now, I guess we're probably talking mostly about women, since that is your target. But can you talk a little bit about what every woman needs to have in her closet, which so she can be ready and confident and come across with, you know, authority at work? What do they need? What do we need?

Basia Richard 7:35

Well, so we have to go back to really looking at Classic because no matter where we are in life that not only really applies to style, but the classic silhouettes, classic loops will never gonna be out of style. So this is sort of like knowing that even looking at what's your personal style, what sort of, you know, type of silhouettes you're drawn to, we're looking at some staples, like you said, that's going to look good on pretty much anyone so anything that something I'm wearing today, it's just a simple white button down mine shirt is I just don't like anything that's touching my body. So I love oversized shirt, oh, obviously, you can wear something a little bit faded. Now we can look also, if the white button down can be a little bit too. So maybe to polish the little bit to almost like, you know, I'm going to some kind of, I don't know conference room like um, I don't want to wear a white and specifically like cotton, maybe like a silk something that's a little bit more breezy, that fabric is gonna be a little bit more rich, but in the same time it's not so like kind of stiff, right? The white button down looks like that. So in also adding a little bit of print is always a good idea. So if you were like a silk simple, but now maybe a delicate print something really settle something Something maybe like I would say can be floral, so little little floor. Nothing too big. Obviously another step with a blazer. But here's a here's a kicker. So blazer, especially on video can look extremely stiff.

Claire Davis 9:33

So let's talk about that.

Basia Richard 9:35

So what you have done is that the color that's what makes the difference because the black color black is gonna be so much more serious, right? The black blazer if you put something darker underneath, it's gonna give that so much more I would say in an evening sort of sort of look like especially during the day like 12pm you are meeting somebody wearing black blazer it's like air No, no. But a lighter color will always make it a little bit more casual. But you're still wearing a silhouette that gives a lot of authority because blazer will give a little more like a professional look right? The color will make it a difference. So for you, this is great. So blazer makes you look professional, but the color is lighter. That's what makes it a little bit more casual. And anything else like crewneck are always really good. Something simple because chronics are great that we can lay or some kind of jewelry, put a little bit of necklace, some kind of dainty pieces, nothing too big I don't just big oversized sort of type of jewelry is very dated. So I would stay away from that. And I absolutely love what you have done actually with your style how you took your sort of like a simple of the next level and I always comment about your earrings

Claire Davis 11:02

oh wait are also.

Basia Richard 11:06

Because if you just put something like start with something like simple, maybe hooks Tao would be a little bit more professional and a little bit more put together. But a little cactus thing makes it more fun, approachable. I absolutely love that. So small little details go a long way.

Claire Davis 11:27

I'm so glad to hear you. Yeah. And you know what, for everybody listening if you can't see us right now I'm wearing some gold and silver swirl cactus earrings. My girlfriend got me a couple years ago, and I don't know every time I wear them, I think of our time shopping in Auburn Oltean Auburn California. So I love earrings for me when we all had to default to wearing masks for so long. I felt like I needed a little fun. And for me, that's how I that's how I brought that across. Now I will admit when I was in the field, though, in medical sales, I was terrified to wear fun jewelry, because at the time, you know, I was in my 20s I was working in front of oncologists and medical medical oncologists and surgeons and I wanted them to focus more even on what I was saying then on my jewelry at all. Now there were some physicians, specifically other women physicians who we really bonded over stuff like jewelry and workout routines and just just things you talk about with your girlfriends, but especially when I was in front of male oncologists who are lightyears ahead of me in their education and in their professional careers. I really buttoned up so I remember many, many times it would be quite stoic jewelry, if any at all. But now I love adding a little bit of fun. So do you feel like every everyone should focus on their version of character within their style? Or do you think they should focus more on what is more common in their industry?

Basia Richard 13:05

I think both okay, because on one on one hand, you want to stay true to yourself. So forcing yourself into something just because I'm going to look more professional, it's just not going to come really credible because it just imagine yourself throwing yourself something that you just don't feel comfortable. But you feel like you have to wear it because that is a professional look. On another hand. You do have to think about your clients and who you're meeting. When are you meeting and the environment obviously and who you working for who is your ideal client, whoever we are meaning industry everything else. Because again in in sales, I cannot imagine you would go in some kind of you know Hooli or something like that because that's just not a professional look. But if you add a little bit of earrings to your because that's what makes you this is who you are. I love it. It reminds me of my trip or this is sort of like the small little elements that can I can express myself through you know, your little jewelry little I don't know floral printed blouse because I love romantic sort of kind of accents then absolutely. This is this is how you want to do it. Obviously you don't want to go in on one ad like I said and completely go into our let me put the hoodie why not? But on another side. On the other hand, you know you don't want to also throw yourself into something that's not really an outfit that you feel comfortable in. And you like me said that moment ago you're going to be questioning yourself right so am I like to stiffen it to my to Not looking kind of professional credible. I'm just overthinking What am I wearing? So I think we just stain between, right?

Claire Davis 15:08

Yeah. Well, you know, it's so interesting how now more than ever, personal brands have become centerstage when it comes to sales, whether whether you're embracing them or not, I highly encourage everyone in medical sales to really consider what their presence is, especially on LinkedIn, and what kind of personal brand they already bring across. Because the reality is whether you're in sales are or not. People are ready. No, you are no, no, you for something. So like, for example, Asha, whenever I see you on LinkedIn, you are always buttoned up. And in fact, I recognize the shirt you're wearing right now, because you wear it frequently. And I know that you wear this button up frequently with intention. It's because you know, great style, and you're teaching us something. So I almost associate like white, crisp white button that's with this casual style with you, because it's part of your brand. So do you think there is an element of repetition in our style that we should embrace so that when people see us, they for me, for example, I wear fun earrings for you, you often wear these really beautiful starched, but, but casual button nuts? Do you think that there's could be an element of repetition when we're representing ourselves with what we wear?

Basia Richard 16:31

Um, yes. So like you mentioned, buttoned up is my staple, I cannot wear anything else. It's just who I am. This is me the five different colors, different patterns. And I have jumpsuits with button up buttons and, you know, shirts and things like that. For you, like you mentioned are the earrings I always see you I'm like, I first thing I'm thinking what are the earrings today, I literally look for them. I don't know if it's because I'm a stylist, I'm gonna obsess with that. But I think it's just finding not making always necessary a silhouette or not necessarily be an E can be a style also. So if you are in love with some sort of patterns with some sort of color that you look really good in on, you feel really good. And so this is sort of that you can, you can stick to obviously wearing the same thing over and over. I would not wear the white but now shirt constantly but I wear a shirt because that's how I feel a you know, this is just me, this is who I am. So finding that one thing that kind of represents me as a person that baggy silhouette and might be a color and might be a pattern and maybe a style is what will people will kind of, you know, remember, remember you so but one thing I want to know this, in many mentioned, wearing your branding colors constantly is absolutely a big no, no. So when I see constantly the same person, I have one I'm not gonna mention who but wearing the same color all the time on every video is the branding color. I'm like, Okay, that's enough of this. I can do it.

Claire Davis 18:21

And yeah, I you know, I remember making that mistake when I first started my business and just started with branding. And at the time, my colors were kind of like a pink and something else. And it ended up not really resonating with my my audience, after all, but I really thought that I needed to buy every sweater out there in this pink color. I think it was green. And that mean if you look back at probably things I did on on LinkedIn, like three years ago, you'll see you'll be like, oh, yeah, there's Claire and that things. Come on girl, like shake it up a little. But you know, we feel like you know, we've got to embody the brand. And sometimes we get stuck and things like that. So speaking of that as kind of a faux pas, so if anybody has been plan on wearing the same sweater for the rest of the year, Bosch is telling you you don't have to do this. But what are some other things that you see commonly other pitfalls and fashion that you can help us avoid? What are some other things that we should not do?

Basia Richard 19:24

Well, definitely dressing in some kind of I'm calling it data looks so going into data. So like I mentioned big chunky jewelry, something that it's plasticky, you see those type of jewelry flags 1015 years ago and I see a lot of women just wearing some kind of nice shirt and this big, chunky, I can totally tell it's plastic some kind of well, it's just dated. It's not good. Another thing big pattern so big prints, so big prints usually gonna make us look big on camera and we are extremely distracting. So any type of big prints are a big no, no. Small prints are great. So, usually, I mean, I would say usually prints are great, just small delicate, something that it's not over powering, especially if you meeting that regardless, you meeting on camera and you're meeting in person big prints or it's just, it's just not really good. And then obviously dressing for your body, it's it does make a difference, especially if let's say you have a really bloke broad shoulders, even though we cannot see your bottom because you need to make proportions right. If you wear some kind of puffy sleeves. It's gonna look like you can a football player right? That big, sort of. So that's another one. I like always opening my neckline like how you are right now. I have that's why I like the shorts because I can close it if I want I can ultimately buy one something jewelry, but that always always gonna open up us on camera, you're gonna look taller, you look gonna kind of more approachable. Again, you can wear clothes though if you want that's totally fine as well. It's you know, switching a little bit back and forth is always always a good idea. On camera and other things stripes. This is something that I would definitely not do or any type of texture like repeated texture. If you can see. It's very tiny little stripes. V going to make this sort of like a war effect. It's like an effect you can see on TV very often. Oh, it's sort of like those those prints kind of blends in the blend together. And they create some kind of like a like a weird effect like a strobing almost effect. So that's just not really good. Stripes are fine. If we are thick. I love stripes, stripes, but I always specfic thicker stripes and also any type of patterns on on so called a texture that's gonna have that type of repeated a connect a texture, right? So and then shirts, anything like that with. Again, that's going to give that that abstract strobing effect. So that's for the camera, not not the best and not the best thing. Other than that, I always say what wear whatever makes you feel comfortable when it makes you feel good. And make you feel confident, I guess.

Claire Davis 22:35

yeah. Because when we're comfortable in what we're wearing, and we don't have to think about it right, then we can be confident in other areas. We've all had that shirt, or those pair of pants we wore, and suddenly they don't fit quite right or they're too tight or just don't we're just not sure. And so we're pulling and picking out and and trying to focus on things, but we can't because we're worried about our outfit. So I'm glad that you said that I can see where being more confident in what you're wearing can also breed confidence in what you're doing. So I like that you shared the difference between in person and and video. Okay, so do you think that most styles carry between both other than the small patterns that can kind of have that strange strobing effect? Do you think otherwise? Is there? Is there a way to gauge what's going to carry you from your Zoom meeting and straight into the operating room?

Basia Richard 23:32

Yes. So you know, when I show up, or I can think about a look, or if I want to add something to my, to my sort of my wardrobe. I really think about how am I going to wear it in where I'm going to wear it how is that going to fit my lifestyle because essentially, if we don't wear something in our closets, because most of the time it does not fit into our lifestyle doesn't fit into activities that we are doing. So if you have a bunch of you know, dresses, you were before pandemic, we obviously been sitting in your closet for a really long time. And you were most of the time for the past two years, some kind of you know, sweat pants, and you were like that kind of nice shirt and it call it a day. But today we're doing so much more. And so the way I look at it is I'm thinking about that specific outfit. How is that gonna fit into my lifestyle? So I think about meeting on Zoom, can I wear it on camera on for my new YouTube video? Can I work to dinner? Can I work to let's say dropping off my daughter to school and then meeting somebody after? So I'm thinking about all those kind of activities I'm doing. I'm looking at all my lifestyle. And I'm thinking how am I going to have this piece of wardrobe fit into as many pieces as many activities that I'm doing today. Big We talked about my white button down shirt. I had actually open house at my daughter's school this morning. So I wore this shirt with high waisted jeans and just simple sandals, I came home it right away first thing I took of my jeans off and I put just a comfortable, comfortable sweatpants. Now I would wear the same sweat pants to drop off her to school if I don't have to meet anybody and then maybe do like a grocery shopping on the way home. So again, this all gonna fit into different lifestyles, right? Yeah, my one most favorite kind of piece of clothing I wear a lot when I don't have to change is a jumpsuit. Because I just put it on collar today. It's only a question of different shoes. If I you know, if I have to do some like gold for dinner or something like that they were a little bit of sandals small heel. If I have to go and run some errands, go to a shopping mall or meeting clients, whatever I can wear maybe more comfortable shoes, but that's gonna, you know that type of outfit is gonna carry me throughout the day. Yes, it's just the it's just the one onesie, right? Yeah.

Claire Davis 26:22

Yeah. Comfortable, functional, adorable. Yeah, yes, I'm all about the jumpsuit. So speaking of specific situations, because one reason I love following you and your content, and you guys seriously, if you're not yet following Bosch on LinkedIn, or her YouTube channel, do yourself a favor and do so right now. But one thing I love is that you can apply these principles specifically to different situations. Now, one that I hear about commonly is I'll have professional women who have done well in their medical sales career and moved up to either a director position, or maybe they're just an outstanding representative or even VP level. And so of course, as it does, once or twice a year, there's a national sales meeting. And this is a situation where everybody from the entire organization, who's in the sales department in some way all gathers at some hotel in Dallas, and they rent out the ballroom, and they have a multiple day conference, right? And if you do well on a team, or if you're the VP of sales, you inevitably have to get up and give a speech. So if you were speaking to somebody who was about to go up there and give a speech and either talk about their sales strategy that's working for them to share that with the team or they're just trying to inspire the sales force, but they want to come across she wants to come across professional, she wants to feel comfortable. But she's got to really play up the style of it because she's running the show. What would you what kind of advice would you give to her when she's packing for that event?

Basia Richard 28:04

Well, I always start with time of the events because we cannot talk about an outfit unless we know if it's going to happen at lunchtime or it's an dinner. What is the dress code because again, I cannot give you an advice until I know what is a dress code if it's in Dallas, might be in an evening seven o'clock with dinner. I'm already thinking there's going to be probably four seasons somewhere and for float for Texas somewhere outside maybe Dallas or somewhere like that. I'm already kind of visually visually seeing all those women. I think the easiest and the best outfit for this is to really keep it clean and classic because that will never do is going to be sharp is going to be professional is going to be presentable but it's going to be so powerful because there's nothing more powerful than like a very well structured, classic look so I'm thinking it can be a pantsuit doesn't need to be black, it can be Navy, it can be any other other color, whatever the color person likes to wear, but a structure on something that it's so smart that the blazer fits like a glove, the pants are just perfect, high heels and this is the most powerful kind of sort of outfit that a woman can really you know, come out on stage and and just give the speech or on her of her life or you know this is a really an another nother silhouette will be achieved dress dress so it's sort of like a dress that belongs in like a court courtroom. It's like a courtroom attire sort of. So really well structure again, everything comes down to Smart structure and really well fitted silhouette, that's more important than actually a style. Because there's nothing more distracting or more like off. Sort of like confusing if somebody's wearing something that it's just does not fit well. So I would say a really good pantsuit in one color with something simple underneath a simple necklace from canadense. The necklace can be earrings, high heels, doesn't need to be super high, but close toe, heel something classic and clean. Or like one of those very smart well fitted like Victoria Beckham dresses, one of those dresses that just follows nicely your curves. But it gives that kind of powerful and smart, sort of like presence. And I think this type of environment that we're talking obviously at 1pm, there'll be a little bit different.

Claire Davis 31:00

Sure. Oh, thank you so much. I mean, it really does help to, to sort of play out these and visualize the situation in your mind, just like you were doing because our clothes and what we wear is another tool to support what we're doing. Right. It's another tool to really support that presence that you mentioned that authority and credibility that you mentioned. And also we want to come across trustworthy, right? I mean, if we're leading a sales organization, we want the people who were in that room to say, she's here to teach me something great. I trust her. And I believe in what she's doing. I'm going to give her my attention. So thank you so much for playing through that scenario with us. So for anyone who is listening right now, or watching this live, Bhatia, can you tell us where people can find you and connect with you and learn more about how they can get great style tips that really build that credibility in that professional brand?

Basia Richard 32:00

Sure. So we can connect on LinkedIn, I'm on YouTube as well at Basia Richard simply just put my name in YouTube I'm gonna come up you're gonna see some old videos for the geared towards stylists in completely ignore it. Look at the newest stuff and I'm also on Instagram @Basia.stylist That's my Instagram. And that's where you can basically find me or anything else.

Claire Davis 32:28

Thank you so much. That's great. And you know what yours. I mean, I, you've done so much for me. In the short time we've known each other I think we bumped into each other on LinkedIn last year. And since then, I've learned so much from you, and you're so generous with your style tips. And so I really appreciate what you're doing. I love how you're empowering women to really embrace their style and to know how to master it and the same time. So thank you so much for being here with us today. Brush. I really appreciate you what you're doing. Of course.

Basia Richard 32:57

Thank you for having me.

Claire Davis 32:58

All right. Well Until next time, guys, go follow Basia and make sure you check in with her on all those places she mentioned. And thank you so much for joining us today. See you later.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Why Getting your Message Right is so Important

AI-Generated Transcript below. There may be errors.

Claire Davis 0:12

Hey everybody, and welcome back. This is today's medical sales leader. And I'm your host, Claire Davis. And today I have Bob Goodwin here with me. And this is our second start, because I just got choked up on the last recording. So he is an incredible leader in his in his space. And today, I'm so excited to present him to you. Because whether you are in medical sales or not, we are all coming around to the realization that there's a fair amount of personal branding and professional branding that goes into how we present ourselves our line and also connect with our clients. And it's about time that we start using those sales skills that we have refined in our career to promote our own professional brand, and get that job we want. So today, Bob is here to share some of his methods. I hope he can talk all about his career club and how he has really ignited brands, from p&g, to coke and Samsung to give us a little bit of insight on that. So Bob, thank you so much for joining me today. I am so grateful. And if you wouldn't mind, tell us a little bit about yourself.

Bob Goodwin 1:27

First of all, it's a super pleasure to be here. So thank you so much for having me. And, yeah, so yeah, my background is sales. So I'll empathize a lot with folks who might be listening to this or watching this. You know, 25 plus years as a salesperson sales leader, most of my experience has been with consumer packaged goods, companies or retail. So as you mentioned, your clients have been Procter and Gamble on coke and Samsung Walmart big names like that. And so, in the meantime, I've been helping people network for a long time, because I like to connect that sort of in my DNA is just to help and to connect tip, I like doing that. And along the way, a lot of the people that I was meeting networking where people are in job search. And what I noticed was, like, I would ask people like, what are you looking for? Like, what do you think, you know, your superpower is where you really, really good at, and people would stumble on that. And I'm like, Oh, my goodness, like, you don't know what your brand is. You need to know what your value proposition is, and what kind of problems you solve. If you're going to be effective in communicating with people, and then that's it. We'll talk more about this, but they're not the sales part of it is people didn't have enough opportunities if they were pursuing and like a salesperson would not think that they could hit their quota with one prospect. You know, just hoping and praying that that one prospect closed on time. Yeah, and but that's what people do in the job search. So long story short, you know, it was just very clear to me that so many of the sales and marketing principles that I had learned in my day job, highly applied to a job search. And I didn't really hear people connecting those dots the way that seemed pretty plain. So yeah, start a career club, we can talk a little bit more about that. But basically, the idea is using proven sales and marketing methods and tools to help people find a career that matters to them.

Claire Davis 3:25

Oh, that's in you know, I really liked that you made that connection. Because I think you're right, when it comes to first identifying that we even have a personal brand, that can come to a shock, you know, too many. And what I say often to my clients is even if you don't, you know, necessarily put yourself out there and brand yourself, how people experience you, wherever it is, is that personal brand, how they know you what they know of you and what comes to mind when they think about working with you. Yeah, there it is. That is the personal brand. So to dive into that just a little bit more, where do you feel like people can start or should start when they're trying to develop or kind of identify what their personal brand is already?

Bob Goodwin 4:07

Yeah. So so when we're working with clients, the very first place that we start, is in I'm speaking right now, particularly about people that have either lost their job and they're in transition. Were there any bad current situation? First base is always their attitude. So like, what's your mindset? How are they feeling? Because if I lost my job, say, say that the company had a reduction in force or whatever happened, and I feel like I was treated unfairly. A lot of times people will carry that into their conversations is they're networking or doing whatever. And they're, they're shaping their brand in the minds of people. And it's like, Wow, he's really angry. Wow, he's really bitter. That's part of your brand now, and so people need to get to In a good place, emotionally or psychologically, sometimes what he says at least gets a neutral. But so first base for me is your attitude. The second bit is around messaging, and the value proposition that you bring forward to accompany. And again, a lot of times people don't think of it in those terms, they know their job description, and people, your clarity, know that you're really good at helping people, you know, identify their accomplishments, and how they contribute, and how what they've done that's measurable, demonstrable, not just adjectives, I've got got a little saying by saying, you know, adjectives are not accomplishments. Say they're self starter, and you're curious, and high integrity, those are all interesting things, prove it. And so that's what a brand needs to be able to do. So a brand needs to know what the problems are that the client is having. So what are the pain points? In this case, the employer, or the hiring manager for more specifically, what are their pain points? And then how do I uniquely solve those kinds of problems? And then what are the reasons to believe that those are true, and those are my accomplishments, here's my track record of solving problems just like that for somebody else. Those are a lot of the key elements of a brand. Then the other major point of this is, who's the audience for that value proposition. So if I was like running advertising, and you know who my target audience is, I'm not going to run a Geritol commercial, you know, on Big Brother, that would be like a big misalignment. So knowing who the target audience is, and how to reach them with the right message at the right time, those are all the kinds of things that marketers think about all day, but his job seekers, often we miss that, and we suffer the consequences of a job search taking way too long, or taking a job, that may not be the ideal fit for me.

Claire Davis 7:01

Yeah. And, you know, like you said, I think that getting to neutral is so important. And you know, it's it's interesting how, you know, the more and more I speak with other coaches, it all starts with mindset, is it harder to develop that understanding and focus on the pain points of the employer? Because most don't realize or recognize that as their true customer during a job search? Or do you find that the emotions and the instability and the frustration of being unemployed, unemployed, is what's holding us back from Britain?

Bob Goodwin 7:36

My visceral response to that would be yes. And it's both. Yeah. And that, that, it seems like a kind of legacy resume writing legacy, you know, personal brand narrative has been about me, I, me, me, me. And it's all about me. And so I'm very focused on me. And, you know, everything, and not thinking about the other side of the table. I think about this a lot with people who want to make a pivot. And I play you know, I've been doing medical sales for a really long time. I'm tired of it. And I want to go do something new. I'm like, well, that's cool, if that's what you want to do. But think about it from the other side, that who wants to take that risk, unless somebody knows you really well. And they're willing to do that. I know, Claire's never done this before. But I know she's smart. She works her tail off, and she's very positive. I know she'll figure it out. Most people will not take that bet. Right? You need to be very cognizant of where your the other person is coming from in the equation. On the emotional part. Honestly, I think that most people don't know that a lot of times, they're stuck in the muck. With that, and we've even gone so far as is we're partnering with some life coaches, and even clinical psychologists. Before you even talk to the resume, person, LinkedIn profile, stop, we need to take there's some foundational work that needs to get done around values, convictions, aspirations. And most people don't pause long enough to think about those things because there's too big, I need to network, they need to get another job. And they don't take the time. And I believe they do that if their own peril. Because if they could have slowed down a little bit, to hurry up, they're gonna be a lot happier. They're gonna be a lot more effective in an interview. They're gonna be more effective at their job, ultimately, I believe.

Claire Davis 9:37

Yes, I agree. I think that it must also be that you know, anything we do, whether you know, you're sitting here listening and watching us now and saying, Well, I'm in medical sales, or I'm in marketing, or I'm an accountant. We wrap so much of our pride up in our job so much of who we are becomes what we do, like it or not. And so I think That's such a brilliant approach to get your head right to make the next move, we almost can't do it until we start recognizing that there are other opportunities for us. You know, can you tell us a little bit more about the other resources that we would find in the career club, for example? Like, what what else should people be doing kind of at the baseline before they even begin the job search?

Bob Goodwin 10:25

Yeah, so again, a lot of people I'm particularly sales people I know, because I r1 is, we have a bias for action. And activity feels good to us. But without proper planning, we can burn up a lot of networking, by trying to be busy, when it may not be as well aimed as it could have been. So there's an asset that we built a career club that I felt was missing for a lot of people. First, it's kind of It comes in two pillars, the first pillar is getting organized. A lot of people run their jobs, search off a sticky notes and a spreadsheet, cobbling stuff down on the back of their capital, one bill, whatever. And then all sudden, it's like, oh, my gosh, who introduced us? Which resume? Did I send that lady? Like, oh, my god, I forgot to follow up with her. And it's all this stress of not being organized. And getting back to our core theme here. This is a big sales and marketing campaign that we're on. CRM tools are really good at Yeah. Right managing prospects, contacts, communication, a pipeline of opportunities. So the first thing we did is we took an existing CRM platform, and repurposed it to align with the things that we do in a job search. The second piece that I felt was really missing was, people don't know all the cool companies that are out there, they know the ones that know. Right? So you know, I'm going to start since I can't finish, but like, if I was in GI medical sales, I don't know who the major players are, let's say there's five major players or something. And, well, those are the ones that I kind of know. So I guess if I know that one, I'll go find one of the other four. And, or for people that maybe aren't quite that niche in their thing, they might go find the book of lists for Spokane, Washington. And, you know, that's my list. And so I'm gonna go find your the biggest companies in Spokane, the best companies to work for in Spokane, the largest private companies, everybody's got the same list, if that's what you're doing now, you're just falling in line with everybody else. There's a database that we use called CrunchBase. 2 million companies, its global. Every private company, every public company is in it. But its secret sauce is companies are getting funding. So we believe that like having a much broader aperture visibility into companies that could be in my strike zone. But they have funny names. I've never heard of them. Right. But they got money. They're scaling out. Yeah. They're also scaling up in a lot of cases that are top grading is a friend of mine said the other day, they're they're they're taking their talent level up. But if it's a company I've never heard of, I can't call on them. So basically, we integrated CrunchBase into the CRM tool. So now I can do company discovery, and outreach and manage all of my opportunities within one tool. And that seems to be a very differentiated thing. But what we also found was for non salespeople, they need more help. And so we've ended up wrapping professional services around that with resume writers, LinkedIn optimization, helping do outbound campaigns on behalf of the client. And so really doing more of a what we call concierge Club, which kind of do it for me do it with me. Yeah, I have an approach. And then the last bit will stop is creating community, which I know it's important to you as well.

Claire Davis 14:13

Yes. Oh, what a brilliant approach. And I think something everybody here listening can really tap into, because, I mean, that's just how you would run a traditional sales, you know, business plan, right? So you know, exactly. So when you were creating this, were your days at like Samsung and Coke, like, were they coming back to you? And you're thinking like, oh, well, this is how I would have done business development here. This is how I see it happening in careers.

Bob Goodwin 14:45

So the connection was, you know, it just to be clear with with your audience, my clients were Procter and coke and SAMSA. So but I'm dealing with like the Global Head of Marketing, the brand manager for coke. And were the guy or gal that leads the relationship at Walmart. So it's that kind of executive, and how they think about advancing their brands. And so you just learn all these principles just by osmosis. Or if you're gonna be an all effective in helping them solve their problem, you need to understand the world the way they think about it. So that's where we're all the marketing stuff came from. But then the sales bit is what I've been doing my whole career. And for for people who are listening, particularly those who are salespeople, and if you're trying to identify your opportunity by applying for stuff online. And Claire, I'm sure you've got a strong opinion on this is I liken them to RFPs. A request for proposal, right? I hate RFPs. It's a black box, I've got no control over the process. procurement is actually running the show, get I'm just falling in line with everybody else. That sounds a lot like online job postings to me. And I'm just I have no idea what the process is, I have no idea where this thing is going. I don't know who the decision maker is. And I just, but I've done it 400 times, and hopefully one of them. If you went to your sales manager and said, I'm going to make my quota by just doing RFPs. But but but here's your here's your territory. Yeah, but but they haven't issued an RFP. Well, aren't you calling on somebody there? No, because they haven't issued an RFP yet. Like, you're you're laughing? Because in any salesperson will laugh because that's ridiculous, right? So what we're doing is being much more proactive, and helping the client curate a territory, if you will, of 60 companies, and then figuring out who's the decision maker decision makers and being proactive in building relationships with them doing the outreach? Because, again, I think everybody knows this from experience, but sometimes we don't think about it in this context is many, many people have gotten a job that was never posted, right? Just like Claire's awesome. Like, I've met her and started learning more about her background, like, we need somebody like Claire right now. Or we've got somebody like Bob, and I'll Sinclair shows up and say, Well, we have an opportunity to do a serious upgrade here. There never was a job posting. The HR person never knew. That's what I was thinking about. Like, maybe I need to replace Bob, because he was here. And all st. Claire's plus player shows up. But that's how it works in the real world. But if we're not acting like salespeople, and in their days on call or online job search course, making your own weather is that's what salespeople do. They make their own weather, they they make stuff happen. That's what I love about salespeople is we make stuff happen. And yet in the job search, we become much more passive, much more reactive. And if we just acted like the sales process as it is, then we would get a better job faster.

Claire Davis 18:12

And dialers best way now, yeah, and wouldn't that be nice? And you know, for the record, let's be honest, that company's gonna keep Bob Okay. We know I, I really think you're right. And, you know, one thing I know, that you talk about frequently is, you know, if we're going about the job search the old way, right, the applying online, the thing in your head up against the wall, the, you know, go it alone, it's painful, and it can also be a little bit lonely. So can you talk a little bit about you know, what you see with your job seekers, maybe when they're transitioning into this new modern way of approaching their career because it can be a lonely place, especially to be unemployed, be it a layoff, a company closure, otherwise known spot on and you know, my identity is very much tied up into my job.

Bob Goodwin 18:58

A lot of my social stuff is tied up into my colleagues like this, my friends. And then you layer COVID. On top of that, I mean, that guy to be extremely isolating for people. And so, you know, that's why we call it a career club, is we wanted to create an environment where people felt like they were part of something again, and that they could attach to a larger social group that you wasn't just, you know, a coffee klatch or a pity party. But we're we're all kind of trying to help each other on the same page, that we do a weekly roundtable and we talked about successes, but we also talked about struggles. And you know, we haven't said this yet, but that's, that's very near my why. And all of this is hearing People come into that call bummed out, and walk out of that call, energize optimistic again, you know, I, somebody's saying, well here Chris, call me after the call and like, you know, let's get connected to take that three people I can help you with, you know, so So we're building this community, where even after you've landed, you're still part of the community. Because and I know you've seen this, Claire is where once people have been through the process, they almost always adopt the Pay It Forward. mentality. Yeah, you know, if you are so helpful to me, when I was going through that process, I wanted to be there for somebody else, just like you were there for me. And so, you know, not making it the job search club, but the career club, so that you again, we continue to nurture relationships. For a lot of people and this is cold water for people, is if I've been at j&j for 18 years, and all sudden, something bad happens. And I lose my job at j&j. Well, I just lost my entire network. Right. And then people like, don't know what to do. And I liken it to going to an ATM, and you're trying to make a withdrawal and have a Bank meeting a deposit. And those are, that's a, that's a overdrawn relationship, and you can't make withdrawals to you've made deposits and relationships tend to be very much the same way. And so once people, and again, sometimes it takes a job loss, and people having to figure it out working out, and building relationships, that they want to continue to do that, because now they can't it's it didn't feel very good getting the lesson. But now when they got it, they got it. And so yeah, community is just really, really important. And again, I would just want to emphasize this so much for people listening, it is not just for the job search, it's for the rest of your career.

Claire Davis 22:01

Amen. You know, it's, like you said, it's not just for the job search, it's for the rest of your career. But truthfully, a lot of us don't recognize the importance of networking. And sometimes they don't recognize that we have been networking, but unintentionally, like not with the intention that might serve us later on, until something happens like a layoff. You know, I remember in my own case, the first time I was laid off, I did, I completely neglected to wreck to network with my colleagues, my current clients at the time, and I was an associate at the time, but still, you know, those, those relationships you make are so, so important. And it's sometimes not until we kind of hit the rock, you know, we hit we hit the wall, that we realized that we've we've got to keep going. So So when it comes to networking, do you have like a system that you encourage people to use? Or maybe a routine? You know, how does somebody you know, say they've been laid off, and they need to supercharge their network? Again, how do they go about it systematically. So they don't, you know, burnout, forget, not do it, etc.

Bob Goodwin 23:21

So in full transparency, you know, as much as you know, I'm an advocate for networking, and try to do a lot of networking because I enjoy it. This has been a little bit more of a recent introduction, even in our own process, which is this some anybody can do right now is go to your LinkedIn profile and download your LinkedIn contacts. And whether you've got 500 or 5000 links, you own your data, you own your contacts. And so LinkedIn will give that to you. They'll come to you in a in an Excel or CSV file. And then to I encourage people to pick your top 100 to 200. But what constitutes top? Well, someone's people I'm super close to and I could text right now they're gonna text me back, son could be top like, well, these are some of those senior people that I've met over the course of my career so far. I would encourage people to think about salespeople. We are natural networkers and we have naturally larger networks. And maybe somebody worked in finance.

Claire Davis 24:31

As an example. I'm not picking on myshelves. They're not listening to this podcast, don't worry.

Bob Goodwin 24:36

That's a different, right. But But salespeople tend to be natural networkers and helpers. And then another pod that you might have been picking your top would be people that are at companies that you'd like to be at. So and there's various criteria that you could use for thinking about those kinds of things. Picking your top two 100 We're basically you can do this on your own, you don't need us to do this, but we find that people benefit, like weightwatchers like, you can go eat better on your own people just don't. But if you can do this all yourself, but taking, like, if you said 200, thinking like 50, this week having a templated email that says, basically, hey, Claire, you know, hopefully well, you know, recently, you know, I left my role at x, Lacy, and you have been operating my engagement play now, to to let folks know that I'm back in the market. It's been a while since we spoke, but we'd love to reconnect with you. I love Calendly. Here's a link to my calendar to find a time that's convenient, really looking forward to connecting to have a great day, Claire, yeah. It's it's super short. I didn't tell them my career story. I didn't attach my resume. I was transparent, that I've lost my job. It's very cool. If you look on LinkedIn, I think the most popular post right now where people are saying, Hey, I lost my job, I got laid off. There's like no shame in that. So that'd be one thing. I really encourage you, there's zero share, and that happening to you. But anyway, doing that, and then like doing pods of 50, over the course of four weeks, jumpstart your now, but I'll say this, this is really key. We talked about attitude that we talked about messaging. Now we're ready for Outfitters, I talked about some things airing bad commercials. If we bought a Superbowl spot that we had a really crappy commercial, that's a bad idea. We might have gotten in front of a bunch of people. But we did it in the wrong way. It's like, oh, I remember that Bob commercial. looks terrible. Right? First. So that's why getting your message right is so important. So working with somebody like you to really kind of craft the narrative, get the message, right? Have it properly represented in your brochure, your LinkedIn, profile your resume, to make sure you're on message, make sure that you can do tell me about yourself. luid, right, easily, right. And not Oh, I'm gonna get I am a like, you don't want that, right. And so that's very key in networking. The first LinkedIn article I ever wrote clear, was called the most powerful question you can ask. And it was based on a networking meeting that I had at a Starbucks with somebody who had lost their job. I didn't know them from anybody. And the guy was so full of shame, that the body language was just profoundly sad. And he was literally backing away from me. As even as we're meeting and he just kept apologizing for taking up my time. I know you're really busy. I'm so sorry. Like, stop, I want to be here. I want to help you that he felt like the power dynamic, if I can say it this way, was so out of balance, that I had all the power. He had nothing to offer in a space like alms for the poor. Yeah. Am I no, no, no, no, no, please stop. You've got relationships, experience, your all kinds of accomplishments, things you know about that I don't know anything about. So people that the most powerful question you can ask to cut to the chase is, how I can help you. Is there anything clearer that I can do that would be of help to you? Yep. And to be genuine in that? Not that it's a rote question that I Oh, yeah, I'm supposed to ask this real quick. I think I ended up you. But like, you know, as we talked, we talked about our kids and we talked about what you're interested in, I might find that you've got you know, a daughter with a learning disability or whatever it might be, Oh, do you know this tutor that we've actually have the same thing our neighbor knows this amazing person. You can contribute you can you have something to offer? One it I think it truly helps emotional well being of the job secrets know that they've got things to offer in this conversation. But to is it is a highly differentiated networking behavior, that it's not all gimme, gimme again. And then I'm just going in here to be manipulative, and I feel like I'm using this person you're going to be seeking to help them to, and hopefully we both walk out in a mutually beneficial relationship. That makes networking fun. Hey, I'm going to be able to go help this lady today. That's cool. Maybe she can help me. Let's find out. Yeah. And so I think you're that one. jumpstarting your networking by downloading your LinkedIn stuff, too, is having an having a message, you know, who you are and what you're looking for that you can clearly and concisely relate that to somebody And then three is that attitude is seeking to help. And to give not just seeking to get if you can do those things well and do them consistently, do your follow ups and be committed to networking. It's fun. Yeah, you've seen this, people come back and say, You know what I would not have wished listen my job, if sucked, like I couldn't. That's not something I would have chosen. I've met so many amazing people in this process. I'm just blown away by all the great people that I met. And now I'm committed to helping the next person. Yeah, that's sort of my advice in a nutshell, or not a nutshell, one?

Claire Davis 30:39

No, that's great advice. And, you know, what I find is that when people do become empowered, to start reaching out to network, even if they haven't, for a long time, and I hear it a lot from my senior leaders, who will say something to the effect of, I wish I would have started this 20 years ago. And listen, everybody starts, when this becomes top of mind, it's okay, right. But what I find is that when they do start reaching out, much like you say, especially if you approach the conversation with a giving attitude, you know, not just a taking attitude, that people are very, very willing to help, they want to they, people are so willing to give an extra ear or to share their experience because it, it builds their authority to you know, it makes them feel good, because they work hard in their career. And to be able to pay it forward. More often than not, people are very willing to do it. So I hope that, you know, if you're listening to this, and you haven't yet engaged your network, or you're not going after your job, search, as a plan, as a call plan and a funnel, and leveraging those things that you as a salesperson, and in this podcast for this scenario, medical salesperson, you know, start considering that you have so many more tools in your arsenal from your sales experience, and that you can leverage them to your own ends to make yourself a really great career path. But I love what you share today, Bob, thank you so much for enlightening us on all these things. I think that it's the future of how people should be job searching, especially when so much has changed over the last two years. I think that I've yet to work with a client who has said that they've gotten no jobs at all, from somebody they know, I've literally never had that conversation. They've said at least one of their jobs. It's been through someone they knew. So but I think the way that you're approaching this through career club is really, really smart. So can you share a little bit about where people can find you? Should they want to tap into these resources and connect with you?

Bob Goodwin 32:58

Yeah, so thank you for asking. So amazingly, career dot club, that is the domain. So you can you can go there. And that'll say all this good stuff, too, is a very active on LinkedIn. So you know, we'd love it if people wanted to follow me follow career club. We do lots of podcasts, too. So that's fun and a lot of good content. But lastly, just as an offer to anybody who's listening to this podcast clear if they referenced it. I said earlier, making your own weather is the name of the online course. I wouldn't make that available as a gift to anybody who's listening to this if they would. Normally it's only available to for paying clients. But it's your very sweet to have me on and I think the message would really resonate with salespeople. So yeah, so career dot club yet follow me Bob Goodwin on or connect with me on LinkedIn follow career club, and we'd love to help in any way.

Claire Davis 34:00

Thank you so much. And so that's so generous of you, Bob. So if they send you a note and reference this podcast that they will be able to access that that wonderful training. Thank you so much. That's really truly generous. Absolutely. Well, thanks, everybody for joining us today. I know that we could talk to Bob Goodwin for hours and I know that there's so much more do take the time to follow him. Connect with him over on LinkedIn and learn more about career club, especially if you're at a point in your career where you are ready to take it to the next level. And until next time, thank you so much for joining us. See you later.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Master Your Mental Health for 30% Better Performance

AI-Generated Transcript below. There may be errors.

Claire Davis 0:12

one everybody and welcome back to another edition of today's medical sales leader. And today I am so absolutely thrilled to share with you somebody who I recently met who has cracked the code on what it takes to be really effective in medical sales by dealing with what is between our ears. First, she is a mental performance coach. And I'm so excited to introduce you to her as well today. I have Danielle connected with me. And I would love it if you take a minute to just introduce yourself and tell us what you are up to.

Danielle Kenagy 0:51

Yes. Hi, thank you so much, Claire for having me on here. My name is Danielle Kenagy. And like you said, I am a mental performance coach, I am so excited to have a chat with you today about what I do. But to start off with I got my bachelor's in psychology from the University of Washington, I fell in love with psychology and I love sports. So as decided why not put them together. So I went and got my master's from John F. Kennedy University, which is down in California. And I got a master's in sports psychology and ever since I became a mental performance coach, and I've been working with so many amazing people. I am up in Spokane right now. But I've had the opportunity to meet with athletes and businesses that are all around the country. And I also have a couple of clients that are abroad and over in Europe. So it's been super cool. The biggest part of what I do is my job is to just help people achieve their optimal performance by working on their mental health. And using an incredibly huge bank of skills. I'm basically building a toolbox of skills for you to use so that your mentality going into every performance is at a top notch level. But besides that, when I'm not there, I mean, I'm just I love a big body of water. I'm always swimming or going voting. And my dog loves it as well. My fiance, so we're big outside people if I'm not tied with mental performance.

Claire Davis 2:17

That's awesome. I love that. Well, first of all, thank you so so much for being here. And second. I mean, as a pacific northwest corner, I know we love to get outside, right? That is so yes. We recently just discovered priest lake up north, and it's absolutely incredible. So there's Yes, just no lack for fun things to do up here. But, you know, for everybody listening here and watching. So Danielle and I first met because I was in a bad way with my lower back and I went to her clinic where she works, which is called built to move. It's right here in Spokane, Washington. And they basically helped me walk again, which was amazing. But when Danielle and I first started talking, she was not just stopping at the, you know, the physical nature of chiropractic, I noticed that she was into sports psychology and for everybody listening, especially if you're in medical sales, you already know that it's half of the things that you learn about sales that make you great at what you do. But the other half and many would argue more is the mindset that you have when you're going into do that. So take me take me back a little bit. Danielle, when you very first realize that you wanted to start pairing sports and your psychology major, was it because you were playing sports? And then you thought, wait a minute, I think I can maximize my own performance? Or is this something that you learned in school and like the light bulb went on? And you thought, oh, I can definitely apply this. So talk us through a little bit about how you made the connection?

Danielle Kenagy 3:53

Absolutely. So while I played sports, and I was an athlete, when I was younger, in college, I went to college to go to college and have a good time. I played recreational sports, but nothing serious. But I would say it definitely happened in the classroom. I knew that I wanted to be in some kind of sports field. And it just happened that psychology was going really well. And I was having a blast in these classes. And I ended up taking an undergrad sports psychology class, from Dr. Small. He is one of the most incredible people he is retired now. But he was what made the connection for me and it was such an intense class. But if you took it seriously, I was just incredible. And so I ran with that. And then I ended up taking one of his graduate classes after that. And from there I was like this is this is it and I just had this lightbulb that you know it while it's called sports psychology, this could go so much farther than just athletes. And I think that's where it came to play as well as it really helped me my own education using those skills using what I learned on the mental side of things.

Claire Davis 4:58

Yeah, and I think that, you know, especially in the last two, three years with everything going on and the market fluctuations and career fluctuations, I think everyone is just a little bit more in tune, if not very in tune with the fact that mental health really needs to be a priority. And, you know, like it or not, we've all been dramatically affected, in some way or another. And so I think it's really brought to light that you have to take care of your mental health or something is kind of give right Something's gotta give. So absolutely. Let's talk a little bit about because I know you probably see a lot of these folks. But, you know, how can somebody recognize when maybe their mental health needs a little bit of a tune up? What are some of the signs they can be looking for? When they're feeling a little bit off? Or they're not performing? Like they were? What did people feel and see? And what are they going through? That would maybe your mark that just needs to be worked on?

Danielle Kenagy 5:56

I think, you know, in my field, everybody individually is so different. But I think one of the biggest telltale signs is they get very negative with themselves. So you know, when you're performing well, and you're achieving all of these things, we're in a positive, happy mindset. We don't have a lot that we want to tear ourselves down on. But the minute we start doing a little bit less well, or we're struggling in different parts of our performances, we get negative Yeah, you know, we start to question ourselves, that's a huge thing. But the negative self talk the way that we tear ourselves down, we are so good at doing that. Yeah. I think that almost for every individual is a huge telltale sign no matter the performance.

Claire Davis 6:36

So you know, when you start that negative self talk, what do you walk your patients through? You know, you because I know, and specifically for women, we are really good at beating ourselves up. I mean, it doesn't, men and women, of course, but for some reason, I feel like we're experts at this. And sometimes we're doing it without even realizing it. In fact, I was reading a book the other day that said that we we implement self negative self talk, in our day to day, it occupies like 30% of what we think, which is like, like, every third thought is us dumping on ourselves so clearly that, that we need to change if we want to move forward. So what is the first step for somebody who's like, Okay, I'm starting to really beat myself up, I've got all these negative thoughts, what do they do next.

Danielle Kenagy 7:30

So the next part is the awareness piece. You can't you know, work on yourself, if you don't stop and realize what's going on, you know, that negative self talk can lead to a lack of confidence, a lack of motivation. Resiliency is down, when you start to realize all these things, that's great. And that's where we need to take that first step. But that first step is doing the awareness piece, which comes with many different things. I would say specifically for self talk, I like to give all my clients that self talk log. While it's homework, I try to not say at work, if that awareness piece, you know, we got to do it to get somewhere. But being able to write down those things, that's a great, great tactical skill to have to be able to write down, hey, I had a negative self talk. And then you can start to pick out the themes, you know, when are we having all this self talk? Is it around a certain performance a certain time, and all that kind of stuff? So awareness piece, best next step? Okay.

Claire Davis 8:29

And you know, when someone does become aware, because I think if, if you're listening, if you have become aware of negative self talk, I don't know about you, but it surprises me. Because I start to think, Okay, well, I don't talk to my kids this way. I don't talk to my friends, or my peers this way. Like, why do I suddenly feel like I am just the biggest waste of space in the world? Right? And we know it's not true. But breaking the cycle is so important. So okay, so number one, you have to get aware. And I love that you do a lot because I think sometimes when we get things in writing, that's when we can really start to get them out of our mind and give ourselves a little bit of headspace a little bit of peace. So what's the next step that somebody might take? If then they come aware now, what do they do?

Danielle Kenagy 9:15

So the next part would be kind of jumping into the skills, right? self talk is a skill in itself. But being able to break down self talk starting out with, Okay, we have the awareness of when, where, and what, but like you said, the why people ask themselves, Oh, I know, this is not true. Why is this happening? You know, why? Why, why? We're going to sit there and we're going to talk that out, we're going to hash it out. I'm going to ask questions about your future and your present, and how you know, times have changed and your performances and that kind of thing. So join that into that awareness piece. But then moving forward and learning about self talk. So what's wild is there's so many different parts of self talk and I'll just briefly give you two of them, but I use a certain skill within self talk that's called countering versus riff. Preventing. And countering is basically taking a negative self talk and refuting that with reasons, facts or beliefs. So, you know, if you say something negative to yourself, and then you're like, Well, why did I think that? Well, let's pull out the reasons and facts on why that's not true. And then you go to become a lot more aware. And you're like, oh, yeah, I am saying these awful things to myself or whatever it is. But there's facts and reasons behind it, that will lead us to the positive self talk, it was so interesting.

Claire Davis 10:32

And so do you feel like when you're, you know, looking at the different ways that self taught could crop up for us? Do you feel like most of that come? Like? Are there any patterns? Do they come from, you know, times when we tend to compare ourselves to others? Do they come from, you know, past failures? Do they come from fear of the future? Where do you see most self talk coming from?

Danielle Kenagy 10:58

If you are in a performance, and it's not just a single individual performance, it's against someone, it's with someone you are comparing. And when they're doing better, and you're not bill, you're attacking yourself, you're being negative with yourself, I would say that's a huge one. And I think the fear, just fear of failure, not even future past present, it's that fear of failure, none of us want to fail. And when we start to potentially go down that road, or feel like we're going that way, the fear just overrides, and it just completely blind, zero and blind.

Claire Davis 11:32

Yeah, there are a lot of different pharmaceuticals and devices and, you know, diagnostic tests that compete with each other in some, you know, version or form to treat the same thing. So it's a very creative industry. Where I think sometimes I see and I know, I've done this in my own career, you know, for example, back when I was selling radiology and imaging, we had a very, you know, big competitor in Sacramento, you know, just down the street. And we it was constant comparison. And it wasn't necessarily that I felt I was doing a poor job. But I think purely because I hadn't come around to the idea of, okay, we're all in the same boat. We're all just doing our, you know, jobs, the best that we can, we're all trying to get in with the same physicians and let them make the choice. I beat myself up all the time, just purely because my competitive 100% Right. So silly. Yeah, so silly. Looking back, we can tracted it before we even notice. Right?

Danielle Kenagy 12:36

Exactly. And that's what you're saying like, right, as they walk in the door, right? You haven't even done your pitch or, you know, whatever it might be, you're already, you know, less confidence, potentially a little less motivated. And you're just jumbled. Sometimes, you know, when we lose our core skills, in our minds, and in our mindset, we're kind of done for we stumble over our words, we can't rebound. We don't know how to almost contradict what our competition is saying.

Claire Davis 13:04

That kind of stuff that's human, you know, the ripple effect, then, right is then you look incompetent in front of your customer. And specifically in this industry, I was just talking to somebody this morning, they said sales and sales wherever you're at? And I said yes, except for medical sales in front of that oncologist. And you're uncut, you're not confident in what you're sharing. I mean, how can they be confident in what you're selling? Right? So let's talk a little bit you were talking about the countering to these negative thoughts that we have. And you said there was a second one, what was the second one?

Danielle Kenagy 13:38

It's called reframing. It is very, very similar to countering but some other some people like to use it, and some people like to use countering. So reframing is basically taking a different perspective. So taking that negative and going to the positive almost immediately. So saying the grass is greener on the other side. Not using as many reasons or as many beliefs, but just switching to a completely different perspective.

Claire Davis 14:09

Do you feel like people find this one harder to do then the first one?

Danielle Kenagy 14:15

Yes, definitely. I feel it. It's kind of almost hard to explain, because it's so individual. But I think that reframing that can take the aspect of you have to have an optimistic mindset. And if you're coming in and you're so negative, you're so down on yourself, you don't even know where to begin on the self talk, it will be a little bit harder to find that optimistic mindset. And so I think that reframing falls into that category of you got to almost have a little bit of positive on the other side to be able to refute that.

Claire Davis 14:49

So do you feel like these are habits that people have to start to create? Or are they like, are they habits or are they tools, do you not I mean, I just learned I Just read this. It's not new, but it's really awesome. It's called atomic habits by James clear had to think for a minute, I was like what. And what I love about it was he talked about how behavior change really stems from the habits we make, and also the environment that we put ourselves in. So like when you were talking about, you know, naturally, people can reframe a little better when they have that positive mindset. So are there ways that you help your, you know, the folks that come to work with you, for this mental toughness? Are there ways that you help them so that when they're in the moment, they have these tools, but they're setting themselves up for success with their environment, or their habits, so they, it happens less often?

Danielle Kenagy 15:48

100% Yes, the having everything around you, right, especially with you talking about medical sales, and being in that competitive environment, finding those little things that are positive, and I think that's a big thing is, when we're in the moment, we're in the moment, if you see your competitor come in, instead of going negative on yourself, find that positive, well, you know, I'm wearing a blue shirt today, and I'm confident in my shirt, you know, make pull it back to yourself, and keep it positive, you know, are finding those little positives or setting yourself up in an area where you're comfortable. And you know, this and you got this, and you can use those reasons, again, in that countering to pull it back to yourself and less on the person walking in and the person standing next to you,

Claire Davis 16:30

you know, I think that everyone is drawn to what they do in their career, because for some in some way, they're kind of made for it, you know, like, it's either been a situation in their past or they just have a special spark or personality trait that kind of predisposes them to the job that they're in. So I want to know, from you, like, what was it about you or your past, or maybe you know, your kind of your natural way of being that drew you to this craft,

Danielle Kenagy 17:01

I bound in the back to my parents, my parents raised me in such a great way, but not just how they raised me, it's what I watched them do, my parents were very giving. And my, I just, I was so listened to, I always felt heard, you know, if I did something wrong, I needed to listen to them. And then they also got to take my perspective. And, you know, if, if something was going on, I was, I could just talk and I could say whatever. And I felt very heard. And I learned about growing up. And I watched them do that to every single person that we were ever with, whether they were in our family, someone we didn't know, whoever it was, and no one in my close knit family is in this profession. So just watching them do that and get that influence, I think really led me down the road to be able to really listen to someone and take in what they're saying and help them with everything, but really make sure they feel heard. And I think that is one of the biggest things is sometimes we just have to talk to talk. And we really need someone to just listen and take it in for us. And let us release that. And I just, I I just found my passion and that and yeah, I would say big.

Claire Davis 18:15

Oh, I love that. That's so awesome. Okay, so So let's dive into that listening just a little bit more. I remember when I very first set foot and built to move. And it was from when I walked in the door at your front desk to meeting you want when I was rounding the corner to going to the Jolina, who was my chiropractor, you guys have to check out bill to move through listening in Spokane area. Just go You'll thank me later. But the thing is, every single step I was listened to. And I think sometimes, even when we tend when we tend to talk a lot when we tend to talk for a living as a coach or a provider. The things that we say are, you know, valid, but sometimes it takes people like you who hear what we say but here what we're really saying Do you know what I mean? Like the the meaning behind that actually share to really dig to what's going on at a deeper level. So when do you see this with your patients when they see you know, they come into you with one problem that they think they have? Right? Or they say that they know. And then you have to be sort of the investigator in the investigator role.

Danielle Kenagy 19:19

Oh, yeah, that is a huge part of what I do, you know, digging into that awareness especially. But yeah, I always have a notepad and a pencil that's somewhat considered old school now because we have this incredible technology. I could take notes anywhere. But I am an old school, I keep it to the pen and the paper and instead of writing, you know, every single thing that you're saying, I write down the little stuff because the little stuff is where I can dig. And I can because you we talk, we talk we talk and then that's my opportunity to say Hey, I hear you I hear this big problem. But you said this, and I think this is where we're going to come gonna dig in today and talk about, and it's always like, Oh, wow, I never, you know thought about that, or I didn't even hear myself say that. Just like that negative self talk we're talking about, you just don't hear yourself say those things.

Claire Davis 20:12

Let's talk about what having a positive mental toughness can bring about, right? So so once you do recognize negative self talk, you work on it, you develop these positive habits using the methods that you mentioned, you're reframing, you're doing all these things? What kind of opportunity lies ahead? What kind of strength does that breed for somebody who then starts to practice this in a positive way? Like, what are some of the positive outcomes you see from your patients who come in, and they're downtrodden. And they're stressed out, and they don't, they don't even understand what their own issue is, they need you. And then you see that transformation, what lies ahead for them when they get it together.

Danielle Kenagy 20:53

I mean, just ran off about so many amazing things, I get so excited when I watch them go down that transformation. But I would say one of the biggest things is having that confidence, and having that motivation to continue on, you know, there are people who get almost, there's never an end, right. But they get to that point where, you know, we've done a lot of work, and now we're just going to meet for sustainability. And they just come in with their head head held so high, and they're just so motivated, you know, what else can I do? And, you know, can I go farther with this? Am I mastering this skill, all those things, but you're also finding that resiliency, and you're finding that resiliency within the tools and yourself. And that's the biggest thing you are giving back to yourself and pushing yourself. So I would say that's the that's the most exciting thing to look forward to. And something that I've noticed so far with a bunch of my people. And I just I Yeah, it's a great thing. But confidence is a huge one, just being able to like, hold your chin up. And know that you can go into pretty much any situation and find the positive or be kind to yourself, push yourself through that.

Claire Davis 22:06

Yeah, let's say we're speaking to a, I'm gonna I'm going to pull out a company that I know loves to hire sports minded and athletes, you know, previous athletes and current athletes, let's talk about strikers say we're talking to somebody who works for striker. Right. And they are on a team. Okay. And they have to help motivate the team. Right? So the team has a lot of negative self talk, the numbers aren't the way that they had hoped, you know, but this person has to go in and put on their, you know, Danielle ConnectKey, like, you know, Persona and reach them. What advice would you give for that person who's trying to motivate a team, so that they can proceed with confidence and regain that spirit, that camaraderie that they had before,

Danielle Kenagy 22:52

first of all, that leader should really have a good idea of what their self efficacy is, which is a kind of a part of that confidence that we have been able to go in there and know what makes them motivated, how they've stayed motivated. And then I think the biggest part would be share your experiences, share your super positive experiences, share your neutral experiences, and share the heart experiences. But instead of making it such a negative experience, or oh, I went through this and this and this, say, you know, this was what happened. And this is how I bounced back from it. So I think that being the leader, you want to have your own sense of motivation and confidence, but then work your team through it in a positive and neutral way, the entire time. Versus this negative thing happened. This is so bad. You know, don't go down that road. Stay motivated, stay confident yourself, and then help share your experiences.

Claire Davis 23:50

Tell us if we would like to find out more about you and connect with you. What is the best way that people can do that? On LinkedIn?

Danielle Kenagy 23:57

I'm on there. Daniel, can they Yeah, I'm sure it'll be spelled out podcast and you could spell my last name. Getting it right the first time she said it. So that's exciting. So LinkedIn is great. And then we also have a site a website with built to move it

Claire Davis 24:15

has been so nice chatting with you. I know selfishly I get to see you guys all the time as I do come in for my routine appointments for my kinda fracture. Thank you, people to move. But yeah, like I was immediately drawn to you and your positivity when I came into the clinic. And once I found out that you help people access better mental performance I just had to have you on. If you are in medical sales and listening or watching the show right now you know how important it is to take care of your mental health and your you know, your spirit, right, your confidence. So if you want to find ways to access that, go follow Danielle on LinkedIn or check her out at Feel to move right here in Spokane. And thank you, thank you so much for your time. Thank you for being here. Thank you everybody for watching and until next time have a great day!

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Building a Personal bRand in medtech with Johnny Caffaro

AI-Generated Transcript below. There may be errors.

Johnny Caffaro 0:00

It was cool to be able to, like, start seeing my personal brand grow. But then also myself and my work started growing like, reps would read it reach out to me like, Hey, I'd like to pick up your line. Like can I be able to sit down and talk with you?

Claire Davis 0:37

Hey, everybody, welcome to the podcast. It's so great to have everybody here. And today I have an absolutely special guest. His name is Johnny Cafaro. I am a huge fan of his and we actually bumped into each other on LinkedIn. And since then, I have been amazed at watching his professional and personal brand. Absolutely blow it out of the water, all for the sake of helping more people in the healthcare industry. So Johnny, I'm so excited to have you on the show today. Thank you so much for joining us.

Johnny Caffaro 1:06

Yeah, Claire, happy to be here. I mean, I'm excited that you reached out and wanted to talk to me. So let's do this.

Claire Davis 1:11

Oh, my gosh, awesome. Excellent. So listen, Johnny, I want to give you a chance, if you would, for everybody here who doesn't yet know You,

Johnny Caffaro 1:19

oh, I've been in the medical field. I always tell people my whole life. Because I was born with that hip disease like cap parties. And so I felt like there's got to be something in this world that light can go towards like hips or medical or help people because I had to get a couple of hip replacements. And I found out there was a sales rep in the ER that sold these products that go into patients. I'm like, I need to do that. And so I started off my career with Stryker orthopedics as a sales rep in Washington State, covered up in Spokane, where you live Claire and moved over to Tri Cities Yakima all over the place. And I was like, so I looked at I looked up some leadership qualities within the art industry. And a lot of leaders have marketing and sales or marketing and engineering or something along the lines where they did had more trades within their bag. And so in my case, I'm gonna go into marketing. So I looked up a company called Warzone development. And I was a hip product manager there for a couple years, and then moved on from there and became a global manager, then Director of Sales for a company called the United Orthopaedics. And then just recently came back to Stryker about six months ago, on the hip product downstream for the hip side. So I mean, full circle, I have a Stryker hip in me, and I work for Stryker and managing the hip side on the marketing. So it's, it's awesome. I mean, it's a really cool, full circle story.

Claire Davis 2:43

Yeah, it truly is. You know, it's funny, the folks that I work with, you know, they're all in medical sales of some kind. And I find that each of them are drawn to medical sales for very unique reasons. Yes, it's an industry that can be traditionally known for making a lot of great money, having a lot of flexibility in your life, but also, it can be an incredible grind. But I find that people that stay tend to do so because they have a tie to the industry, whether it's personal, or they know somebody who's gone through, you know, rigorous cancer treatment, or they've lost a loved one, and it hits them right in the heart. And so I'm really inspired by people like you who come to the industry who have this personal tie. So you know, when you were a kid growing up, what did you What did you dream that you were going to be later in life?

Johnny Caffaro 3:33

Yeah, I mean, I had a couple soggy. And I wanted to be a lawyer in New York City, dressed in a suit and tie and have a briefcase walking up and have my driver pick me up. Or I wanted to be, I wanted to be Tom broke off on MSNBC news, and the news and all that stuff. And so had get the college and we had to go to English. And like, I did a lot of writing in this. In broadcasting, I'm not doing this. I do not write well, I do not want to write papers. So I'm gonna go a different avenue. And I just went into cells instead. So but yeah, they've been that those are the two biggest ones that I wanted to do. And I definitely fell short from both of the house.

Claire Davis 4:14

Well, you know, what, I, you know, you you don't give yourself enough credit. You know, I love it about you. But I would say one thing that I see consistently, whether it's chatting with you, or when I see any of your content that's online, is you're always incredibly positive. And you clearly know how to develop relationships. And these days, you know, sales, if you had been in a sales training 1520 years ago, it would have been challenged or selling and maybe an intro to consultative selling. We want to be competitive today. That's that's, you know, dinosaur stuff. Right? I mean, so So today, it's so much based on relationships, which I guess it always has been, but especially in the last two years, I really want to hear from you how it's changed fundamentally, by the way, you're able to actually get in front of people and start attracting them to you instead. Because I see you on social media and you develop this incredible, approachable, fun and intelligent brand. And I feel like that's the way the future.

Johnny Caffaro 5:21

Yeah, no, absolutely. So I mean, I just wanted to start talking about relatable stuff and content that was I mean, positive and uplifting because there's so much negativity in the world, right? I mean, you turn on the news, and it's all fires, wars, anything, robberies, that I mean, it's, it's terrible. And so my, my nickname growing up is smiling John and Carol. And so it's like, because I'm always smiling, I'm always happy, always just know, there's, it's always going to be okay. And so, if I can portray that in social media and my own brand, and people can relate to it, I think that's the biggest key because a lot of people aren't going through the same issues that you are, but they don't want to talk about it. But if somebody else is talking about it, then you can be able to build a network and be able to help those people and people were gonna reach out to you on by private message and say, Hey, like, I really liked your posts really inspired me? Is there a way that like, we can connect so you can help me through whatever I'm going through? And then vice versa? Is this like I walk into a building and people already know who kind of who I am because of that, because my own personal brand? And like I was telling you earlier, I'd have to like create my own persona and walk into a hospital like, Hey, Johnny, Utah's here, don't worry, like, you'll remember point break back in the 80s. And everyone's like, wait, you live in Utah, and your name's John. He's like, that's perfect. But now, I don't have whatever works. Yeah, exactly. I really don't have to do that. Because I've built trust. I've built relationships. I've built a network that people can be like, hey, Johnny's a trustworthy guy. He knows what he's talking about. And she can be able to deliver on what he's what he says.

Claire Davis 6:56

I think that it's beautiful to see this new wave of companies and professionals leveraging a personal brand. But you know, you and I have talked many times about how it's not easy, and most people don't even know where to start. So can you take us back a little bit to when you started thinking, hey, you know, I've got a voice, I've got something to say I have a, I have a story that I feel like will resonate with other people. And I'm gonna give this personal brand thing a try. Can you can you walk us back there and tell us sort of how you began?

Johnny Caffaro 7:33

Yeah. So I mean, like you said, I have a story. And I wanted to be able to share a story of what happened to me and how I overcame three hip replacements and how to overcome losing my job and trying to figure out how to get a job. And so like, my content is relatable, because everybody has gone through that everyone has been fired, maybe. I mean, knock on wood, some people haven't. But everybody has had injuries or issues on those kinds of things. And so I'm like, you know, I'm going to tell my story. And I'm not going to care, what, who likes it, or how many views I get, I'm just gonna go with it, and be consistent. And I just started posting and, like, I just turned my phone off. And like, I don't know how this is gonna take. This is kind of scary.

Claire Davis 8:14

Let's check it out in the morning and see how we feel

Johnny Caffaro 8:16

exactly right, I turn off my phone. But then like, it started, like getting traction. And then like, it was actually really cool, because I was getting messages like, thank you so much. You really inspired me today like that I really needed to hear those words to them. Like, maybe we're onto something here like this can be really cool to be able to continue to sell, sell myself, but like, I'm not really selling myself. I'm just trying to tell people who I am. But then that also builds people to know, like, Hey, I kind of know who John is, maybe I'll buy his product, or maybe I'll eat, I'll start talking to him. Or maybe I'll be able to, I mean, work with him or collaborate with him on something because he's got something else. And so that's how I started it just I just did it. And a lot of people won't start because they're scared of what people are gonna think about them, or do I look like I'm like having ego because I'm posting a picture about myself. And if you go through my, if you go through my LinkedIn, like, most every single post of mine has a picture of me. Or I'm in a picture with somebody, because it's still my brand. It's still my page, but like, I'm talking about something completely different. I'm not saying hey, look at me, here I am, I'm in a suit or look at my shoes. I also want to be able to make sure like, every time I do posts like they're seeing me I'm coming up on their feed I'm coming up because not just my name because an image goes a long way. Right? And so instead of just words and so I think that's where I started and I mean it was cool to be able to like start seeing my personal brand grow but then also myself and my work started growing many reps would read it reached out to me and like hey, I'd like to pick up your line. Like can I be able to sit down and talk with you reps? I would never even heard of a company that I was working for. Were beforehand. And like, wow, this is this is good On the work front, too. So it's like, if you can combine both. It's you got a home run, right? Yes. Where do you start? And I always tell people start with a story that you went through that people can relate. And then I mean, and then have a positive twist on it and how you came out of it? Because that's, that's what people want to hear.

Claire Davis 10:24

Yeah, yeah. And, you know, I think if I could go back to many of the stories throughout my career, that made an impact on me, all of them have a business lesson whether or not I realized it.

Johnny Caffaro 10:38

So true.

Claire Davis 10:39

I worked closely in support with this rep down in Los Angeles, and she was a phenomenal human being one of those people. So funny that you were definitely shooting milk out your nose by the time you're riding along like she's hilarious. effortlessly. Hilarious. Yeah. But one thing I learned from her is we would go into these accounts, and we would see our competitors all over the or we'd see our competitors kits in the pathology lab. We I mean, it was a very, there was a lot of competition in our Absolutely, she knew every single person their competition or not, on a first name basis, knew their kids names, high fiving them in the hallway and hanging out during lunch. And initially Johnny ice I truly didn't understand. Initially, I thought, Well, wait a minute, we are competitors, like we should be at each other's throats and like, what, what's what's going on? And in in reality, it was such a breath of fresh air because it wasn't a it wasn't a feeling of intimidation, yeah. Instead, it was a feeling of camaraderie and this incredible perspective that we're all making it at the end of the day, we're all busting tail. And the whole point is to help patients thrive in the end. And you know what, I never forgot that. And who can relate to that?

Johnny Caffaro 12:03

Exactly. And like, that's the same thing with me because I've been a patient in, right. And that's how I kind of approached going into sales is like, Listen, I've been a patient, I know what happens, like if something goes wrong, like I know, like a tray is not ready to go or to unsterile or someone poked a hole, and it causes so much animosity and craziness. And when I came in, and like listen, competition or not, like I've been a patient, I want to make sure that all the patients that I'm helping are taking care of are going to be okay. And so that's why like I made friends with everybody in the hospital, I'd be like making sure like, at one point, like I was helping another rep, like, Hey, your case is going to want me to grab something for you and vice versa. And that's what you just said is you build camaraderie. And that goes so much further than, like hate or like trying to destroy someone, because the pie is so big, like, let's be honest, like everybody doesn't understand, like, I know, there's territorial people and all that stuff. But if everybody can help each other, there's enough piece of the pie for everybody.

Claire Davis 13:03

That, you know, obviously there's competition with anything that we do, but by not focusing on it, and instead focusing on the end result, which is, like you said, helping patients, you know, putting yourself either literally or metaphorically in the shoes of the end user of your product. That's powerful. And that's why I love working with medical salespeople. Because all all sales is is great in its own industry. But there's something special about medical sales because you really affect the livelihood of other people. If I'm getting chills as we're talking about the

Johnny Caffaro 13:35

same trick. I mean, I've been there. I mean, I've been the patient had been the sales rep. I've been on the marketing side, and it's it's so much fun to be able to see all the collaborative issue. I mean, everything coming together in one like all the collateral that I'm creating right now goes out to the Salesforce to train the surgeons to do the surgery to make sure the patient comes out perfect. Not perfect, but healthy. Yeah, yeah. Well, perfectly. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

Claire Davis 14:01

Okay. So you know, let's be real here for a second. When you're starting to build a personal brand, and you work for somebody else. How did your family and friends react? Did they have a reaction? Were they were they skeptical of what you were doing? Were they confused? Were they even talking about it? What was that? Like?

Johnny Caffaro 14:21

Yeah, and I mean, so I mean, most of my family members are on LinkedIn. I don't have any other social platform. And so my, my brother in law was making fun of me, like, Why do you keep blasting yourself? This is like a, this is a business platform. You're just talking about yourself? I'm not really just talking about myself. Thank you. And I mean, at first everyone thought it was silly, and everyone thought it was I mean, what are you doing? Even my I mean, I can say it now. But my employer, my ex employer was just like, not happy about me building a personal brand because they saw me becoming almost bigger than them. And and so it's just like you You can't be a spokesperson, you can't be this, but I was like, I'm not doing anything. I'm just showcasing our product and what we're doing and, but I feel like a lot of people are gonna judge you, and you have to be okay with like, your made a choice, and you're gonna continue it. Because if you start listening to the naysayers, you're starting to listen to anybody that's going to bring hay or anything like that. I mean, you're gonna stop. But if you have a bat, if you have a backbone and a strong thing, like you have a purpose, you know where you're going. Nothing stopped me. I mean, thanks, guys. I'm gonna keep still posted. You can like it if you want. I mean, at first, I was just sending the link of every post that I would do to a family group chat, just as people off. Yeah, just be like, Hey, do you guys want to like this? Like, what do you guys think, and I'd get funny jokes back or whatever making fun of it. But like, in all reality, like it started catching on. And then like my brother, he started to be like, Oh, this is great, we need to be able to do this. And then confero shoes, LinkedIn page has gotten bigger and bigger, just because he saw the presence of what mine was doing. He's like, Okay, we got to, we got to do something. And so I feel like if you do it long enough, people will follow if you're doing it correctly. And I think that's the cool thing. Because you want to be a leader, you don't want to be a follower. And so if you already have a decision that you're gonna do it, keep doing it, don't stop and follow somebody else's lead.

Claire Davis 16:16

I love that. I love that. And you know what, listen, for anybody who's in the field out there, like you already know how hard it is to get in front of our customers right now. I mean, the last couple years has been, you know, every version of a hybrid environment. So just even beginning to start on this train. I mean, already, you're putting yourself in front of your customers, by using one of these, and I'm holding up my iPhone. And truly, I think that's, that's the way that companies are starting to wake up and endpoint as well, because I see companies even like LinkedIn, you know, deeply investing in the creator community, I see companies out there who are focusing so heavily now on creating these internal brand champions. And it seems to be the way that business is going. Because, look, at the end of the day, we still want to work with people we like, yeah, and that's the person.

Johnny Caffaro 17:13

Yeah. And the thing is, like, I think where we need to start adapting as companies and as individuals is that a long time ago, we never really marketed to patients, right? We only really, truly marketed to surgeons, or healthcare providers, or that's the marketing material that we would have. But now like now that everybody is on a social platform that everybody's on LinkedIn, or their mother, their father, their grandma, they're gonna look up their surgeons on LinkedIn, or social platforms and check them out. And if you're a rep, or an individual, or sales manager, and you're posting something, within like, five square miles, you're gonna get maybe 1000 views on your very first post within that area, let's say in Oklahoma, and people are gonna know who you are, right? And so that's going to be huge. Like you said, you can't get into offices as easy. You can't get into clinics as easy. But you can send us you can do a single post, talking about who you are starting the conversation, and maybe 10 surgeons saw that post that day, and then you wouldn't have had any. And so like, that's where you start creating your own brand within your own work environment as well.

Claire Davis 18:16

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It probably encourages other people on your team to sort of take charge as well. Have you seen that? Have you seen kind of like a influence on your team of like, Johnny's doing if Johnny can do it? I'll give it a try.

Johnny Caffaro 18:30

No, absolutely. So I mean, if you look back over the last six months, take my boss, my boss's boss, everybody has started like jumping on the LinkedIn bandwagon. It's been awesome. Because you got to be able to showcase what you're doing, right? And it's fun to be able to show, hey, we're at this event, or we're showcasing this or we're doing this and at first, like people would only like the company page, or they would only share the company page instead of showing what they're doing. But I think everybody as you can see, like, it's gotten bigger and bigger, and everybody's starting to like come on, like my boss didn't even have the LinkedIn app on his phone.

Claire Davis 19:08

Like let's go. And but then it was just like after that, like, he was like, I love it. This is great. It's more exposure. It shows everybody what we're doing and it's it's just it's not everybody's cup of tea. But if you can be able to get people behind it and show what you're doing is good. I think a lot of people will follow up with you.

Claire Davis 19:31

I think so too. I think so too. I think it's a rising tide lifts all ships but also you know, it's it's less scary when you don't go it alone. For a lot of my clients. We talk about Bill

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

3 games to improve your public speaking at the national sales meeting

You can detail data, product info, and disease states

But when it comes to public speaking you want to run off the NSM stage and hide in your hotel room.

Good news. It’s not YOU. It’s the way public speaking is taught.

And lucky for me, I've got Brenden 🎤 Kumarasamy, the founder of MasterTalk.ca, to walk us through some more simple games to ramp up your confidence, fast.

You have an impact to make -- and I know you're willing to do the things that others aren't to make it.

Want to learn even more from Brenden?

Mastertalk: https://www.mastertalk.ca/

YouTube: https://lnkd.in/g8cBeTeQ

LinkedIn: https://lnkd.in/g-gdtKJb 

In this episode, Claire Davis interviews Brenden Kumarasamy, the founder of Master Talk. They discuss the fear of public speaking and how it stems from negative experiences in the education system. Brenden emphasizes the importance of reframing communication as a tool for impact. He shares three key principles to improve public speaking: the random word exercise, organizing thoughts, and doing what others aren't willing to do. By practicing and gaining confidence, individuals can stand out in their industry and achieve better results.

(Below is an AI Generated Transcript. There may be errors)

Claire Davis  0:00  

Hey, hello, hello and welcome back to another episode of today's medical sales leaders where today I am speaking with somebody who is near and dear to my heart because the first time I heard him teach me about public speaking, I pulled my car over to not miss a single word. So today I have Brenden Kumarasamy with me here on the podcast. It is so good to see you, Brandon. Thanks for all you do. How are you doing today? What's going on out there in Montreal?

Speaker 2  0:28  

Life is beautiful, Claire, thanks for having me as well. It's always great to see you. Yeah, weather's good. We're finally enjoying the summer for oneself. So life is great. How about you? How is Spokane Washington?

Claire Davis  0:39  

You know, you're gonna have to remind me what summers like because we just had a 60 degree Fourth of July yesterday. And it's a far cry from me growing up in Northern California days, but it's good. It's good. If you love to do any kind of outdoor activity. This is the place are you into like hiking, biking, trail running? spelunking, anything like that.

Unknown Speaker  1:02  

Hiking sometimes. Not the other things though.

Claire Davis  1:05  

Okay, well, this place is full of all that. There's a ton of trails, which is great. But yeah, you just have to wait for the right weather to do that kind of thing. What do you do for fun in Montreal?

Speaker 2  1:17  

I wish I had things interesting to say I would say most of my time is like spent listening to podcast. Sometimes I go clubbing with my family. That's super fun. That's like a fun side thing that we do. But most of my pastime is yelling at friends over dinner on super heated topics. We just go to a restaurant and yell it out. That's super fun, too.

Claire Davis  1:35  

Oh, nice. Yeah, you just pick a nice classy place. white tablecloth real chill vibe. And start a shouting match about something really exciting.

Speaker 2  1:46  

Yeah, let's let's remove the word classy. Maybe it's more like $1 like chicken place but

Claire Davis  1:52  

Well, that's what I love about you Brennan is you are if anything, you are authentic. And and I know that you are incredible conversationalist among all kinds of different speaking styles. So would you mind introducing yourself for us today and telling everybody who you are and what you're doing today?

Speaker 2  2:09  

absolutely clear. So my name is Brennan course, I'm the founder of master talk. Master talk is both a video and a coaching business. It's a YouTube channel, I started to help the world master the art of communication, public speaking. And I also have a coaching practice, right train ambitious entrepreneurs, and executives to be the top communicators in their industry.

Claire Davis  2:29  

And you're still doing free master classes on their on to I am Oh, man, I attended one of them. It was phenomenal. And the reason we're talking today is because I work with medical sales, folks. And while I must say that they are some of the most gifted communicators when it comes to translating, you know, resources and products for physicians, when it comes to public speaking, they're just like us, as the US today says, right? And so the reason I'm chatting with you today is because I'm wondering if you can help unlock for us why it is so tricky for people who are used to communicating everyday for work to get up on that stage and to do it with confidence. So first, is this something that you see commonly?

Speaker 2  3:16  

absolutely clear. So the way that I think about this is let's start with this. Where does the fear of communication come from specifically public speaking? And you're not? And I first got that question. I used to answer something like San Diego, because I was like, who knows? It could be San Diego LA. And I thought about it a bit more. And I found probably an answer that's more suited for the people listening. It all starts in the education system. Where did we learn how to give presentations? High school, elementary school, even if High School is probably like 20 years ago, for some of us. That's where the habits start. But the problem clear, is all of those presentations have three things in common. The first problem is that all of them are mandatory. We don't wake up one morning and say, Hey, Claire, do I get breakfast and present all day? Nobody really says that. So that's number one. Second problem, every presentation you've given. You don't really get to pick the topic and it's always different. So it's never clear what you're passionate about. do podcasting build resumes like traction? No, it's you got to talk about the finesse sauce. You got to deal with it. So like okay, Shakespeare. This we'll figure this out. And then problem number three, which is the most important one is every presentation is tied to a punishment. So if you don't do a great job in school, nobody Pat's you on the back it says don't worry, Brenden and Claire, you'll get it right the next time. Now they go yeah, by the way, your dreams are just over. Just forget it. Your grade is like 30% of it's gone. Your life is over. You might as well just quit school now. So that's the environment that we're played it. Yeah. So that's the problem. So what's the summary? The summary is we grew up thinking, like communication is a chore. And nobody wants to get better at doing the dishes.

Claire Davis  5:11  

That makes so much sense. Because it's not like we grow up and we're afraid to speak. I mean, at least if my kids are any example, they're ready to talk my ear off, and they were at one years old, right? But I guess when you put it that way, there's a lot on the line for people because it's a sink or swim. And then when they sink, as we all do, when we're learning, it becomes a huge kick to the pride. Right? And do you feel like that's where the fear stems from? Is that kind of rejection we feel when we're on stage, and we bomb, which is so likely when you're new, isn't that?

Speaker 2  5:48  

Absolutely. And to build on what you said, Claire, with, which I completely agree with, it's the memories we hold as a kid when doing that activities. Let me give you an example. That's more common. Let's say we think of sports. Right? So in the context of sports, let's say a little boy, let's say 10 years old plays basketball. No, no one's hitting you with a basketball. If you miss the shot, when you're playing outside with your friends, you're gonna just throw in it, you're having fun. And then as you get older, those are the memories that stay with you as you get as you're 30. You're 14, you're playing these basketball games, and you're watching the game. And you're when you think about your childhood, only great things come Oh, I remember he used to play basketball. But imagine a different scenario, Claire, what if that same boy when he was playing basketball, I hit him with the basketball every time he missed the shot, when he grew up liking basketball,

Claire Davis  6:44  

probably not.

Speaker 2  6:48  

Stop, stop playing basketball. But we're doing that with our children with communication, right, whenever they miss the shot, they get punished for it. So as they get older, whenever they're on a stage, whenever they're speaking, they only have negative emotions, negative memories around communication. And that helps them learn the wrong lesson, which is that communication is a chore because it isn't. Communication is a way to share impact. It's a way to share ideas. It's a way to help other people. And when we're able to reframe our minds with this question, How would your life change? If you are an exceptional communicator? Then you go hmm, I don't really thought about that. And then you start thinking about the positives of communication and see it as a tool for impact.

Claire Davis  7:32  

Oh, wow, I love that. Okay. So say, say in a perfect world, you know, you you are encouraged as a young person to be a great speaker, and you're rewarded when you try, right. So we erase a little bit of the fear and the discipline mentality when it comes to early public speaking. So what would you say to somebody who says, Okay, I've got the gumption, I feel confident, I'm going to try to be a great public speaker. Where do they start?

Speaker 2  8:02  

Absolutely. And it always goes back to this principle, then I'll show you my easy, threes clear, is the idea that if you communicate 20% better than your competition, you will stand out 100% of the time. So what does that mean? That means everything that we're going to share today is actually not that hard. But it helps you build a little bit more confidence over and over. And it's those winds that stack up over time, that create that confidence, and how you communicate an idea. So let's go through those three things. The first one is called the random word exercise. So it's super simple. Pick a random word I know, you know, this exercise, right? Your phone or tablet yoke, pick a bunch of random words, and create random presentations out of thin air. So another question is for medical sales, people listening to this, why should you care? Because you're probably thinking, Oh, my God, I'm in President's Club. I don't care about this. Why should this matter? The reason is simple. If you could make sense out of nonsense clear, you couldn't make sense out of anything. And that's really the magic of the random word exercise, is it allows you to do the harder thing. So whenever you have to give a presentation with colleagues in the medical sales profession, and you practice avocados yesterday, you could talk about medical sales, that's to live, that's what you breathe. That's what you are. But you talk about tissue boxes, and you have a good time doing it. Everything else in your life and your career and your presentations will become a joke.

Claire Davis  9:29  

Oh, wow. Yeah, right. Well, and it's so interesting, because when you do start from that base level, and you say, Okay, if I can speak about this coffee mug for a minute, and for anybody listening, you know, that's in medical sales and started another sales organization, likely you've been asked to do this exercise in an interview, so a lot of times it'll be okay. Tell me about what kind of pizza you are. Right? Or if you were a style of Italian dinner, what would it be? And why, which always made me scratch my head. And I don't know why they're always associated with food. But but once you start being able to talk about normal everyday things, is it because you're comfortable with organizing your thoughts? Or is it because you're just practicing?

Speaker 2  10:23  

I would say it's both clear in the sense that when we think about the fear of communication, right, how do you get rid of that? Well, the quick answer is you don't because the fear is always going to stay there. Like for me if Elon Musk called me while we're having let's say dinner in Spokane, I don't know if I'm you

Claire Davis  10:39  

are you are so terrified to get a restaurant.

Speaker 2  10:47  

Buttery crab. We're probably fighting over who gets the less. And what's the Elon Musk? He goes, you know, Brenden, I wrote like your YouTube videos. Do you want to coach me come out tomorrow? P whatever you want? Would I be scared of that? Yeah. I would. Even if I'm the expert on the call, and I yeah, I coach people, and I have success with it. But there's always a level where all of us are fearful. So how do we overcome that? Practice? Absolutely. organizing your thoughts. The third thing I would add to what you said, Claire, is doing what most people aren't willing to do in medical sales. So you get the results that no one else in medical sales gets. So let's use the random word exercise. Okay, you said it's very common in your industry. So let's let's play this out. What percentage of people in medical sales? It's kind of a rhetorical question, we'll do the random word access 10 times probably 50%. Let's say, What about 100? times? Maybe like 5% 7%? What about 200 times? Now we're really starting to say 1%, less than 1%. Maybe one person. But here's the thing clear. It only takes 200 minutes to do the exercise 200 times. So what's the punch line? The punch line is, I'm not asking for 200 minutes out of your day, because that's over three hours of your life. It's a lot of time. I'm not asking for 200 minutes out of your week, or even your month or even your year. Can you give me 200 minutes out of your life. Because if you do that, you'll have an internal confidence and internal knowing that when you go into any meeting, any presentation, you'll look at everyone in the room, and you'll think to yourself, I've done the random word exercise more than all of these medical sales people come by. There is no way I'm going to mess up that presentation. And that's the mindset that I forced my clients to take on. If you do more than everyone else, you'll get the results that nobody else is

Claire Davis  12:56  

fantastic.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

How do you build an irresistible Medical Sales Culture?

In this conversation, host Claire Davis introduces guest Lyndsay Dowd, the chief heartbeat officer at Heartbeat for Hire. They discuss the importance of effective management and creating a supportive and enthusiastic team culture. Lyndsay shares her expertise in building an authentic culture and emphasizes the significance of trust and understanding individual needs. She also highlights the challenges of promoting high-performing sales reps to managerial positions and the importance of recognizing management potential. Ultimately, the conversation underscores the value of investing in people and empowering them to thrive.

AI-Generated Transcript below. There may be errors.

Hey, everybody, and welcome back to today's medical sales leader. I'm your host, Claire Davis. And today I have an incredible guest with me, she is the chief heartbeat officer over at heartbeat for hire, Miss Lyndsay Dowd, and I am so thrilled to bring her to you today. Because if you have been operating in sales and medical sales or in the business industry in general, if you've ever had a manager, this one is for you, because we were just talking about it backstage, that when you become a manager or when you are under a manager, you quickly find out that the whole manage the manager can make or break you is very true. But here's the catch. What if you become a manager and you get promoted to that role? Now, how do you inspire your people? So today I'm here with Lyndsay to talk a lot about this and about how you can infuse and create a culture of support and enthusiasm from your team. That's genuine, not just pool tables and free beer at the end of the week on Friday. So, Lyndsay, thank you so much for being here. Thank you for your time. Welcome to the show.

Speaker 2 1:10

It is my pleasure to be here at Clair and you know, this topic is near and dear to my heart. So I'm happy to do it.

Claire Davis 1:17

Awesome. We're so glad you're here. If you guys haven't met Lyndsay Dowd yet, Lindsey has a 25 gear decorated sales career as an individual contributor, a first line manager, second line manager and sales executives. So this spans her experience spans from software sales channels, leadership management, diversity, and storytelling. And she built this diverse and highly productive team methodology through her 23 years at IBM. And so now she coaches executives on how they can really handle their teams. And they can help to support and build thriving teams with her methods. So she's a graduated graduate of the University of Colorado in Boulder. She's completed sales and management courses with Harvard and Duke and dozens of other sales and management organizations. And she's a wife and mother to a teenage boy and girl twin, and her rescue dog pansy. So we're actually just showing a picture of our new traction resume puppy Rudy here who's rooting for you. So we're just so thrilled to have you here, Lindsey. And she's coming to us from north of Boston. So thank you very much. And I want to jump right into something I heard you talking about with the wonderful Christina Mendonsa the other day on her podcast, and I know she's been on yours as well. Yeah, you guys were talking about how culture, while it's incredibly important, is sometimes tricky for people to understand how to create. And it's not just those pool tables in the break room, the free snack bar and the Friday afternoon beers every week. So can you talk a little bit about what the perception of culture is? And how you build a real authentic one that people thrive out?

Speaker 2 2:57

No, yeah, great question. And then I'll give you a little visual that will help people understand the feeling of culture. And then I'll dig a little deeper. So a dear friend of mine and a leader who I've admired for many, many years. She said to me the other day, she said, Linds, when the phone rings, and it's your boss calling, do the hairs on your neck stand up? Are you happy to take the call. So that should just give you kind of a sense of how do you feel about the place that you work, and culture is a lot about feeling. But as leaders, if you've never had a good leader, and you've never had someone who can inspire greatness in you, you don't know what it looks like. And so I coach leaders and executive leadership teams, and I speak to companies about how to create this irresistible culture that creates a sense of pride of place. And here's the here's a statistic, when people are happy, they're six times more productive six times. So it's in everyone's best interest to figure out ways to get to know their people. And I have a methodology that I apply. And I teach leaders how to do this. And it starts with a really simple question. And all of this goes to the foundation of trust. So the question that I like to start with is how can I be the best manager for you? It's a super humbling question. And first of all, it I've done this before, I've asked my teams this question and you are admitting you don't know everything?

Claire Davis 4:25

Nobody does. Don't tell them.

Speaker 2 4:29

But when you say that, you're gonna get different answers from everyone that you ask. And some people are going to say, Lenz, I just need someone to roleplay with Can you help me with that? I just need an escalation point. I need you to help me manage some executive relationships at the client. But otherwise, I'm good. You know, I don't even know what I'm doing. I don't my job doesn't make sense to me. Everyone's coming at it from a different place based on age tenure experience, what their career aspirations are, and it's your job as a leader to understand where your team is at? Here's the other benefit. When you do that, if you're in the C suite, you can call on any one of your managers around your company and say, Tell me what's going on on your team who's a flight risk? Who do we have to get more training for who's happy, who's disengaged? And they're going to know, because they're having those conversations, and in sales, you know, the one thing I hate is when I hear a leader saying, I don't have time to talk to my people. Really, okay, well, then, are you are you in the right job. And here's, here's the real scary thing that happens in sales. This happens a lot. They take take someone who has crushed it, absolutely, you know, absolutely killed their number. They're, they're absolutely doing amazing. And the company says we need to magnify that we need to make them a manager. I don't know about you. But the best reps that I've ever come across are absolute tigers, sharks, dynamos, because they're interested in their pocket, they're interested in doing it for themselves, they don't necessarily care about the team, they don't necessarily care about other people. So putting that person in charge of other people knowing that they don't really care about anyone else is a recipe for disaster. And here's what else happens, those same people manage up very well, they know how to cover their butts. So the people above them don't know how everyone below them is suffering. Not saying this is the case for every rep, that becomes. But it's certainly a pattern I see a lot of, and because they manage up well. And they're not afraid to step on people along the way. The culture keeps getting chipped away at so that was a very long answer to every single question in our culture, but I wanted to kind of identify some of the hotspots and the the real gotchas that people need to be aware of?

Claire Davis 6:49

Yeah, well, you know, and I think it's a testament to I mean, you know, long answer or not, I think that culture, I think that management, there is no short answer, right? There's so many variables. And you know, we, of course, heard of the Peter Principle of like, if you are a really great rep, and then you get promoted to manager, that might not be your zone of genius. So, you know, in your opinion, just to kind of dive into that a little bit more, when you've seen reps go into management have is there like a litmus test? Or is there sort of a marker that you see to say, okay, they do have management potential, like I see these things, and those maybe who should stay in sales, because that's their sweet spot? What's that look like?

Speaker 2 7:34

I actually will do this with another story. Because I, you know, I'm a storyteller. So I had, I was running a really big organization at IBM, and I had this woman on my team, I had inherited a whole bunch of teams from a bunch of acquisitions, these people didn't know each other. They didn't know what the other one sold, they really weren't interested in each other. And I had to kind of create this environment to make them care about each other. Because if they didn't, we were just the land of misfit toys, and we were never going to be productive. And this one woman said to me, she said limbs. We've got a couple of people on our team. I don't think they know what they're doing. Would you be okay, if I coach them, she's an individual contributor. She's just stepping up and she says, I want to help I see a spot here that needs some help. She goes and calls one of the reps and she calls me back and she says, Okay, we've got a problem. What's that? She goes, PJ doesn't know what she's doing. She doesn't know what her job is. She was moved over here from marketing. It was a reorg. We inherited her she's totally lost. And so phone with her, and let's find out what's going on. We had a chat, we talked about, you know, this is the purpose of your job. Do you get that? She goes, Yeah, I go. But more than that, do you understand? We have your back. And she's like, what? And we said, yeah, no, no, we've got you. And these are the kinds of things you can ask. These are the kinds of things you can say I need to your clients, to your partners, whatever, we've got you if something goes sideways, we've got you. And so Emma, the the other woman is sitting there listening, and she's like, Lindsey, I just loved what you said, that was awesome. I want to go do this again with someone else. So I'm watching her volunteering to coach these people. And I pulled her aside at one point and I said, Emma, has anyone ever asked you if you want to be a manager? She said, No, no one's ever asked me. She said, I would love to be a manager. And I said, No, when I have an open wreck, you're gonna get that job, because I think you've got greatness. Now. Emma also was a phenomenal seller, and she wasn't afraid of a challenge. But she became a brilliant, brilliant manager. And she was very humble and always took notes and always would say, I want to run this by you. I think I know what I want to do. But check me on this. Is this how you would do it. And when you have that kind of open relationship where she knew I trusted her implicitly and I said use your instincts. You got them. You know what you're doing? You don't need me, but you can check yourself anytime. She felt it supported, she felt empowered, and she was ready to fly. Now I'll contrast that with a totally different story. I had a rep, Rockstar rep was getting million dollar paychecks, I mean, million dollar commission checks, not paychecks, she was crushing it. And she, someone told her that her resume looks stale. And that she's been doing the same thing for 10 years. And I said, Who told you that? She told me as well, don't ever listen to that person, because a million dollar commission checks, I think you're doing just fine. And the fact that they think that you need a career change is their problem, not your problem. Your problem is not that you've got other problems that we got to work on. But that's not she, she was one of those people that knew she should never go into management. She didn't want to she didn't want to manage other people, she only cared about herself. And she was fully self aware and could admit that. So just two very different characters, two brilliant women. And that's a really important conversation to have with both of them. But if I hadn't taken the time to really kind of get under what makes you tick, what makes you happy? I wouldn't know. And I might promote the wrong rep. So you just got to really kind of understand where people are, and asking those questions about like, what do you want to be when you grow up? Do some people just say I want to go into management, because they think that means progress, they think that means I'm doing something right? But they might not understand that. That takes a lot of work. And it's really hard. And you've got to invest in your people.

Claire Davis 11:38

Yeah. And it's almost got to be a part of you before you even take it it sounds like so, you know, I really love this first story, especially that you shared because being in the resume business, a lot of times before we have a before we position the candidate on paper, to take a new job, say they want to career pivot, and they do want to get promoted or try something new. I think there's really something important about hearing from that person that they want to go try it first or they want to go see if they can jump in and do some project management or gratis, just to see what I can see it that's a great fit. I mean, that woman, she may or may not have recognized that she was doing management sounds like she didn't recognize it until you tapped her on the shoulder and said, Hey, this is what management is. It's it's you deeply investing in your people, it's you making yourself available. And I think that it's there's no wrong way. Like you said, No,

Speaker 2 12:35

you know, there's but you know what, to that point, Claire, as a leader, delegating is a really important leadership act to do. And when you delegate, and I don't mean like, I have to do this horrible thing you want to do it for me? I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about when you're having those conversations, and someone says, Lindsey, I love to speak in front of people. So next opportunity, you know, could I deliver a pitch? Could I do something? Yeah, in fact, we've got an all hands call coming up. And I have to give a presentation on this, why don't you do some of it. And you know, you could help me with the slides. Or maybe I could even give you a couple of slides to present on yourself. And when you can give people those opportunities to shine, or well, they ballistics Can I work on a report? Sure can. But when you when you phrase it the right way, and you and you present it the right way, they're going to be so excited at the opportunity to shine. And I know when I've given people those moments and those actions to take, they take them really seriously because they want to make me proud. And that's, that's a sign of a really good leader. It's something everyone can do.

Claire Davis 13:47

That's awesome. You know, so often, I work with a lot of executives when they're putting their greatness on paper, right? So we're creating resumes for a lot of folks in leadership. And I have to say that the questions about motivating their team really didn't crop up as often as they are now. And I think it's because now they have to do a majority of their management outside the office. So over zoom. So a question I have for you is, you know, giving people those kinds of opportunities and, you know, to shine on like an all hands call. That's a great way to get them motivated. So what are other ways that managers who primarily, you know, speak to their team in a group over zoom that can get their people excited again,

Speaker 2 14:33

I love that question. For me, recognition is one of the most underused things that managers have. Most managers have a budget, they have dollars that they can throw at things they have things they can give out. But aside from the prizes, the simplest stuff of okay, we're having a team call. I'm going to invite Sally from this other team onto the call because she killed it with helping support our team on the A project and we all need to recognize her. So she doesn't know that we're doing this, but we're going to have her on, we're going to celebrate her. Like, that's doesn't cost anything, it makes her feel so great. And you know what, next time we need her, she'll be right there. And, you know, giving someone the spotlight on your own team to say, Okay, this wasn't the biggest deal of the quarter. But you know what, it was so important. And here's why. And I want to give the floor to you. And what happens is, you create this friendly competition, and they want an opportunity to shine. So recognition is an easy one. And yes, you can do all the typical management things, prizes, and trips, and you know, all that stuff. And, of course, if you're in sales, you earn that stuff anyway. But that is just an underutilized one. The other thing is language. And I'll give you another story. And this is a horribly true story. So I had a manager say to me once, Lindsey, I don't like how you handled yourself on that call. You didn't represent the company? Well, you didn't represent us. Well, it really wasn't good. You write the next time. Well, how do you think I did? The next time? Right? I was so anxious, I was so nervous. I was so stressed. And I wasn't relying on my personality, my sense of humor, my instincts, I can read people. And I couldn't do any of that, because I was so consumed with screwing up. And had she just said, how do you think that call went? Well, I didn't like how I said this. And maybe I could have done that a little differently. And I think I forgot the point here. Okay, what do you need to do? Great. Next time? Do you want to roleplay? Do you need more information? What What can I do to help make you be successful? Because you got this, you are hired for this job, and you know what you're doing, we're getting to the same goal, just a completely different way of saying, and you know, what, if somebody says to me, how do you think that went? First of all, they're asking me, to be honest, now I can lie, I'd be lying to myself, you know, if I did a poor job, but all of a sudden, I have an opportunity to build some trust, and somebody's taking an interest in me, they're investing in me. So I'm gonna step up and be honest. Now, if you're gonna lie to yourself, then you're just gonna sit in your delusions, and nobody's gonna get any better. But the truth of the matter is, language choice, and communication matters. Your words matter. And whether you're a leader or a colleague, you have to think about how it's going to be received, especially if you are a senior leader, a C suite person. I had a GM say to me on a call once I asked a question, and he screamed at me in front of like 14 people, and it was totally unnecessary. And it wasn't even directed at me, it was directed at someone who wanted to fire. But I didn't know that. And I was crushed. Because this is a guy who was trying to impress, I was running a whole business for him. And I talked to one of his direct reports afterwards, of course, I was a puddle. I was like, God, he dressed me down in front of everyone. It was awful. And livid. She was so angry that he did that. And a few leaders called him out. And he had to call and apologize to me. But the reality was, I never trusted him again. So irresponsible, and so hurtful. And so it's just your words matter. And the way you show up matters. And that's really important.

Claire Davis 18:29

That's amazing. And, you know, what, first, I'm glad he called and apologized. But I'm sure that you know, when when emotions run high, I mean, look, we're talking to salespeople here, like in my case, I work with medical salespeople, you work with salespeople, managers of all kinds. The stakes are high. Our course emotion is part of this conversation. And so I think that's a really valid point on our words do matter. And it's a reminder that what we do say affects the bottom line, in a direct way, is how we how we help manage and help to bring forth the mindset of the people who are managing.

Speaker 2 19:08

Yeah, I mean, you hear all this talk about quiet quitting, which, yeah, I was quitting. They're just disengaged, right? That's the buzzword because they needed one. But the truth of the matter is, they're quietly quitting because they're uninspired. They're and leaders are really meant to provide three things connection, collaboration and purpose. Not enough leaders provide purpose and purpose is explaining to your team how your contribution matters to our bottom line. When your team understands that they're like, oh, wow, that is important work that I'm doing. feels different. You weren't there versus mailing it in day after day doing my CRM, whatever it is doing to just try and get people off my back. You know, know if I act with her This, I might really put my heart into this. And that's good. And the connection, you know, leaders have to provide that if you go back to my team that was, you know, from all the different parts, they didn't know each other, I had to this was during the Pandy. So I had all these people I had never met. And I don't know when I was going to meet them, because we were going to be locked down for a while. And I was like, how am I going to make these people like want to be invested in each other? So we did a Kahoot. And I asked everybody to send me one fact that they didn't know that nobody knew about them. So I wrote this multiple choice quiz. And it's, you know, music and pictures. And and I'll give you an example. One of the questions it was this person has visited every major ballpark in North America except one and three men and one woman as the answer is, and everyone picked the men, and the answer pops up, and it's Marsha and everyone's like Marsha. So now, anybody that was interested in baseball is all of a sudden really intrigued by Marsha and they remembered all 40 plus of those, you know, questions because they were interesting. And now all of a sudden, there was inside jokes, there was ways to talk to each other, hey, pickleball champion, or Hey, show dog show dog. All of a sudden had something more than just, I don't know a thing about them, but I see their face. And they always look really bored on these calls. So now all of a sudden, there's camaraderie, there's, there's community, there's things that we didn't have before. And it's hard knowing that people are really working from, you know, from home or remotely, most now. And the only time you see each other is at conferences, or if you're lucky, you know, on a sales call or something. But you have to kind of provide that connection. And when you do it, the payback is huge.

Claire Davis 21:53

So that's what I was going to ask next. So you see, you know, these teams, because first of all, I mean, salespeople as a breed, we are competitive, right? That is why we are hired into sales, right? To compete. But when you have turned it into camaraderie, I mean, what a game changer. So what does it look like when a team has gone and made that switch? What's the what's the possibility for them? Well, so

Speaker 2 22:17

salespeople by nature, like to bust each other's balls, so something to talk about, otherwise, you don't like all we have to talk about is, oh, I think I'm gonna get shafted on my commission check. Or, you know, are we going to have a conference? Are we not going to I mean, there's not a whole lot or it's like, Hey, you got that? When can you talk to me about that? When So creating those opportunities for laughter and creating the opportunities for ballbusting. And, you know, making that place a more fun spot to work? It increases the competition, it makes it you know, Oh, I see you up at the top. I'll come in for you. I am. I love that. I love that spirit. And yeah, no, there's, to me, it's always really disconcerting when we find people that were once very engaged, and now they're not. And if they're real quiet on the team calls, like, you know, as a manager, when you're losing people, not like they're quitting, but they're not engaged. And that is a great opportunity for you to call them and say, hey, something going on at home. Are you all right? Like, what's what's happening? Because I noticed you were really disengaged on the call. No, actually, I'm pissed at you. Okay, well, let's unpack that. But like, you're you're getting somewhere and you're building that trust. So that trust is is really, really paramount. And for leaders that have been kind of jerks. It's much harder to build. But even starting from that, that same question. It's a starting point. It's a trust building activity. And those leaders that have been jerks. Listen, I've talked to like, five people in the last two weeks who've confessed to me, I wasn't total aihole leader like I was a jerk, and I have evolved. So it is possible. I'm telling you, it is possible. I know these people and it is a joy when you actually see their evolution and they can look back on it and say I was doing it wrong. So there is hope for lots of people. This is not like a set in stone. You are forevermore adjure Definitely not. But

Claire Davis 24:28

it can be taught, right? I mean, joking backstage, everybody that there's not like a management fairy that comes down and poof, turns you into a beautifully capable manager. I mean, very, unless you talk with Lyndsay and she is the actual management very hard. But I mean, beyond that, I heard a really interesting story about the CEO of thumbtack the other day, and he was talking about how, you know, as we all sort of get that hot under the collar and sweaty when we hear about performance review use, and but he and his team came around to the idea that, hey, I think we might do performance reviews because I'm not getting the true story from my people, and we're having a poor quarter. So he did these reviews. And once the entire management team also did their reviews, he shared them after some deliberation with the rest of the company. And he said that the the, the ripple effect that that had within his company, by sharing his vulnerability, right in some areas where he needed to improve united the company in a way that like no other, you know, no other TED Talk could write. I mean, like, truly people then felt comfortable with

Speaker 2 25:49

Eau Claire, that that is such a tenant of great leadership. And I always tell my kids, it's not how you fall down. It's how you get back up. And I, I, I'll give you another story. I was this is horribly true story. But I'm being vulnerable. I met a guy on LinkedIn, really lovely human, we're having our first coffee chat conversation. And towards the end, I said something about another leader. And I was describing him and I was saying, Oh, I think he probably had some kind of a disorder. And as the words came out of my mouth, I went, Oh, my God, I could see it on his face. He was disengaging. He was offended. And I we hung up the phone, and I immediately sent him a note. And I said, Sam, I'm pretty sure I offended you with what I said. And I really regret that I said that I never should have. And I'm deeply sorry. If you never want to speak to me again. I understand. But I just want you to know, I won't be sleeping tonight because I feel really terribly about what I did. Well, he came right back. And he's like, I love you even more. And yes, I was offended. But you are totally redeemed, and you know, you are good. And we're fine here. And listen, I'm like telling that story because I was a jerk, and I did something really dumb. But I learned from it, I owned it. And I won't make that mistake again. And the reality is, everyone's capable of that everyone's capable of saying, I wasn't I wasn't good at this, guys. I've learned a few things, and I can do better. And I plan on doing that with you. Everybody wants a comeback story. Everybody likes to pay for that evolution. And that, you know, I was laid off and I was homeless. And now look at me. I'm a million dollar coach. Like, I love the success story. So you can do it to not use but yeah, everyone listening? Well, I'm

Claire Davis 27:46

certainly no, I'm with you. We've I think everybody, you know, certainly everybody listening, you know, let us know, if we're not the only ones who has definitely put stuck her foot in her own mouth, like I know for sure I have been in business, for myself at work for somebody else, and certainly with my kids. So it's just being a human. And what really, what really inspires me about that story is that I think because you are so willing to be vulnerable and be real with people. They are comfortable to do that as well. I mean, I've you know, you and I were talking a little bit before this about. So I was laid off four times, and almost five. And of those times, there were only two scenarios where I felt comfortable enough to go to my manager ahead of time and say, hey, if things aren't cracking, like they should, I really need help. I'd love to hear what you think I should do, because you are here, the leader of the ship. And, and it wasn't because they were this sort of like on a pedestal leader that like everybody aspired to be like certainly maybe after this because they were just so darn genuine. But they were the type of people you could really get to know it was the type of guy who I remember I went to a bachelorette party. When I was working for this one company and my manager brought me into his office. And we'd always had a really nice like jovial relationship, but he brought me in and he closed the door. And he, he he was really selling for a minute. And he said, All right, Claire, I want you to have a great time out there. But there's two rules. Number one, you have to come back. And number two, no neck tattoos. And I laughed so hard. For a minute, my heart was beating so fast. Oh, my God was the kind of I mean, but he knew what he knew where I was going. He knew how excited I was to see my girlfriends. And it was that type of leader that I was, you know, I felt a kinship with. And if I could actually be

Speaker 2 29:47

that kind of leader you die on the vine for like every every leader that I've had, I had one leader and she said to me, she said girl, I've got your back now fly. When someone says that to you, you're like you Okay, okay, I'm gonna do something different. I'm going to try something new. I'm going to show everybody I can do this. And that kind of confidence is free to give that that that inspiration is free to give to everyone and the leaders that do that inspire greatness in their people.

Claire Davis 30:21

Yeah, that's so awesome. Okay, so I have I love that mentality of we've got your back. And I have one more question for you. Because today's medical sales leader is really built on, you know, what was working yesterday? What was everybody doing? 10 years ago? Sure. But now what's working today? And maybe, can you share with us a little bit about like, the methods you use to help leaders be really effective? And what is different today that people are doing and seeing success with?

Speaker 2 30:51

Yeah, I mean, the the easiest place to start is the great resignation, really forced a lot of leaders hands, and people weren't leaving, because they weren't getting paid. Well, they were leaving, because they were fed up. And the reality is, I know so many people that left jobs with no jobs to go to, they're just like, Oh, I'm out. I don't want to be treated this way anymore. So all of a sudden, you have all these leaders, their hands have been forced there. They're all of a sudden going, Oh, my God, these people aren't loyal to me anymore. Well, loyalty is a thing of the past. And there is no such thing anymore as job security. So what you have to do as an individual is create your own career security. Now, career security is about building your personal brand. And corporate doesn't teach this. Very few. There's a couple. But the truth of the matter is, a good leader will say, Hey, guys, I want to invest in you. I want to hire somebody to help you build your personal brand. Because if you're doing that, and you're talking about the things that inspire you, hopefully they're coming from this space. Hopefully, they're coming from this company, and you'll have things to say and things to share. So that's smart, right there. Now, could they leave? Yeah, sure, they could. And they could take those skills with them. But they could also stay. And they can look at it as an investment. So leaders are faced with this obvious shift of they're no longer, you know, looking down at the interviewer, there is just as many questions coming back at them. And I teach people all the time. So when you're looking for a new job, you want to be asking questions about talking about your culture? And if they answer with oh, well, we've got the diversity groups and the women's group and the, you know, the African American, great, that's basic, I expect that every company should have that. What else? What do you do when things are difficult? How do you lead? Can I talk to some people on your team? Because I want to know if they're happy? Now how they answer those questions, is going to tell you how secure that leader is. But leaders have to be able to inspire they have to be able to offer those things community collaboration and purpose. And these are real things that a lot of leaders have been focused on in the past, you know, you have these guys who've been around the fossils, and I've been doing it this way for 20 years. Well, you probably been fairly successful, but that old, good, good old boy mantra of like, you're out. We're gonna do it. We're a family. It's a family. It's more like a mob unless like a family asked you to do unnatural things. Because to do that, like you're gonna hire my son, right? Okay. The Circus but sure. So you know, it, those kinds of things are all warning signs. But the truth of the matter is, people have options. And I don't think there's really a lot of people like me that stayed at companies for long times anymore. Like you see them bouncing, you know, every couple of years or every three years or even every one year and it's no longer frowned upon. So it's incumbent on these leaders to find ways to keep their people and they have to come up with ways of building that sense of joy, that sense of camaraderie and inspiration. And I'll tell you, there's the CEO of zoom. He's an interesting guy. He has a fun squad. And I think it's super cool. He also tells everyone on all of his all hands calls that he loves them which that is not for every leader. He does have this fun squad and the fun squad is there to infuse fun wherever possible. So it could be a virtual background. It can be a challenge. It could be anything. And I just love that sense of you're here. For more than 50% of your life, let's make it a great place. And I think that's a challenge that leaders have not really had to address until now. And a lot of people are finding themselves behind. And so they're hiring these chief people, officers, they're hiring, well, being officers, they're hiring workplace wellbeing officers. And we're learning that that soft skill terminology is the thing of the past. It's just traits. So those are kind of the big, big spots. I think that leaders really have to focus and of course, all the regular stuff is still there. You know, your sales goals, your KPIs all that's still there. But how do you surround yourself with diverse thinkers to get you to be able to get the best out of people? That's really what they need to be thinking about?

Claire Davis 35:49

Yeah. And I'm really encouraged. I mean, I know Okay, first of all, there's a lot in there, right? There's a lot to unpack. But what I also really love about what you shared today is that when you are talking about culture, Lindsey, you are sharing stories and examples of how it's done. I think that there is there, you know, gone are the days when we have that motivational poster of courage. Culture, oh, my gosh. So basically, we're done, we get a couple of posters, and then we're complete for our entire culture session. But when it comes to culture, this is something also that a colleague of mine mount Don talks about a lot is that instead of just having pillars, words, things that anybody could say, it's having those stories that embody what those mission statements actually mean, what those values actually are on the website. So like you shared about the widget, Martha, who had all this isn't all of the Martian who visited all of the stadiums, except one that's in an incredible testament to how you're building a culture of valuing the individual, you know, like really supporting and really building that camaraderie. That's where it's at. So I hope that more leaders take, take the initiative to to work with you and to learn from you because I think this new way of managing this new way of leading people from the heart is really important. And I think it's here to stay for so for people who are who are really wanting to do smart management.

Speaker 2 37:25

I think it is too. And I think if you're not thinking about it, you better hire someone who is because it's, it's so important to like unveil Yeah.

Claire Davis 37:40

Okay, so for everybody here who isn't inspired as I am, by your story and what you're doing for for exceptional leaders today. Can you tell them where they would connect with you where you'd like them to reach out?

Speaker 2 37:52

Yeah, you bet. So easiest place to find me is my website, which is heartbeat for hire.com. But I am on all the socials. So I'm on LinkedIn. I'm on Twitter. Not I'm not I'm not the only one. I'm not on Insta Facebook, and all my podcasts are on YouTube as well. So yeah, you can find everything you need at any of those spots. Lindsey doubt each for each.

Claire Davis 38:15

Awesome, Lindsey, thank you so so much for your time today. It's such a pleasure. Every time I get to talk to you, I leave with a smile on my face. You're just one of those people who gives me like the butterflies. And, and I really believe in the work that you're doing. So thank you so much for spending time today. And thank you for using your talent to really help medical sales professionals, healthcare executives and people all over the place, derive and lead better, more fulfilling career. So thanks for what you do. You are definitely today's medical sales leader and I appreciate your time.

Unknown Speaker 38:46

Eau Claire is my pleasure. Thanks for having me.

Claire Davis 38:50

All right. Until next time, thanks so much. Check out Lyndsay Dowd and stay tuned for next week when we speak with coordinator

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

3 things executive medical sales recruiters want you to know

In this conversation, Claire Davis interviews Michael Butler, an executive recruiter in the medical sales industry. They discuss the importance of building relationships with recruiters and the impact recruiters can have on people's careers. Michael shares his background in recruiting and his passion for making a difference in people's lives. He emphasizes the importance of deep diving into clients' products and developing partnerships with them. Michael also mentions the significance of personal connections in the recruiting process and the value of treating conversations as more than just transactions.

The following is an AI-Generated transcript. There may be errors.

Claire Davis 00:03

Hey everybody, welcome for Welcome to the show. Welcome back to medical sales Insider. Today I have somebody who I am really looking forward to introducing you to His name is Michael Butler. And he is important to me as he's an incredible recruiter, but also helped me within my own career journey. And so today, we're going to get to hear a little bit of the behind the scenes of what it's like to be an executive recruiter in today's landscape. And we're going to talk about all the ways that you can make great inroads and relationships with recruiters, which is a very smart play if you're looking to be advancing in your medical sales career. So today, thank you so much for joining me, Michael. It's so nice to have you here behind the scenes. So I'm so glad you could join us. Thank you so much, if you wouldn't mind. Can you introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do?

Unknown Speaker 00:55

Absolutely. Thanks, Claire. It really nice to join. You know, we've, we chat often. And I think we're both on, I think we both have a LinkedIn addiction. So we cross paths on on on that platform daily. So I'm really excited to join you. But yeah, so I'm a chief growth officer Cancer Research Group. We're a boutique medical recruiting firm, we focus on commercial position sales and marketing roles across the US, servicing the medical industry. So our clients typically manufacture a product or provide a service into into the medical community. So got a team, we're up to 17 people now. So got a team of 17 based here in the Carolinas and have a presence across the US so and I personally been in recruiting since 2004. So they're doing a long time. Start off medical sales recruiting actually back in 2004. So essentially been in this space for most of my career going on 18 years now. So but I'm really excited to join you and see where this takes us. So thanks again for having me.

Claire Davis 01:59

Yeah, I'm so glad to have you here. So, okay, so 2004 is when you had your entry into recruiting, what were you doing before you were in recruiting? And did you think that recruiting would be the path that you would take?

Unknown Speaker 02:12

Yeah, I was. So I graduated from Clemson University, Go Tigers 2002. And started off actually, in baking, I was a mortgage banker with Bank of America had an econ degree, gone into the banking industry, enjoyed it at first, but found I didn't enjoy all the paperwork. And my my colleagues here at concerts group would laugh when they hear that because they'll know I'm terrible at paperwork. So while I enjoyed helping people, I did not enjoy all paperwork involved. So. So I did that for about a year, year and a half and was trying to find something I didn't know what I wanted to do, right, I was 23 years old. Like the people I work with just didn't actually like the actual job. So I really enjoyed being out of commission role opportunity to earn as much as you can by putting in extra work and being in a performance role. So I did that for about a year and a half. And then I stayed in the role. But I spent about six months looking for really going on a career journey to talk about what I wanted to do next. So I looked at analyst roles internally at Bank of America, I looked at outside sales roles, I happen to trip across recruiting, someone randomly called me about a job because the recruiter called me about a job in whatever was I don't remember what it was, but I wasn't interested in wasn't a fit. And he started talking about my career. And he's like, Hey, I'm actually have a friend owns a medical sales recruiting firm. He's looking to hire some folks, would you be talking to him? And so I didn't even know recruiters existed. Like, literally just didn't even know as an industry so sure. So interviewed with a large national medical sales recruiting firm, was really intrigued by the mix of psychology and project management and sales that are involved in recruiting and, and really enjoy people reading, right. I always felt like I was a good people, reader, and I love psychology. And then I like to probably my econ background, I just love, you know, analytical skills required for a lot of project management responsibilities and all the different moving parts that go into recruiting. And then of course, the sales side I love helping others and trying to connect parties and and yeah, it was just just happenstance that I got a random call, which led to a random interview, an industry I'd never heard of. And then eight years later, here I am on a podcast with you.

Claire Davis 04:36

Yeah. And the sweet irony of being recruited to the recruiting industry, right. And at the time, what was that company was the system when

Unknown Speaker 04:45

it was Yeah, system wide, which is out of California. Yeah. They have three offices across the country and had one in here in the Carolinas. So started with them. I was with them for six years and then I started my own firm. Had that for seven years with kind of a mid career journey for a couple years trying to figure out what I wanted to do after that, and ended up in construction about a year and a half ago.

Claire Davis 05:08

Oh, that's great. Okay, so let me ask you this, when it comes to recruiting, of course, there are all types. And I think that if you're listening to this podcast, you know, that there are Headhunters, there are recruiting firms or in house firms as well. So one thing that I have found to be really, really helpful in a job search, whether you're our manager or hire is going with a recruiting firm, that is specialized. And I think like you many people, you know, when you're starting out in your career don't even realize that recruiting is actually a really impressive industry. Like it's a robust industry, especially today, it's probably more well known today than it even was 15 years ago. So why did you and what drew you or kept you in the medical sales recruiting executive level of that? Because I feel like that's a different conversation than a regular, you know, come what may recruiting house or internal recruiting firm?

Unknown Speaker 06:09

Yeah, I mean, ultimately, right. It's about impacting lives. So what's really cool about what we do is, is we're not only impacting lives, and people's careers, and also people's teams, but, but ultimately, the product they're selling, right, and so if we can make a small difference, and in the field of cancer oncology, that's just really rewarding. And so that's like, what's what's kept me on is just feeling like I'm part of something bigger and, and making a very small difference in people's lives. So. So it's been, you know that that piece is critical. And then also just just getting to learn right about all the different technologies and science and different disciplines, just a lot of fun, because, you know, medicines always changing. And so we'll pick up a client, once a month, we pick up a client, and we're like, deep diving on what they do, and trying to learn. You know, that may be like, similar to some of our other clients, but they're, you know, on the fringe of that tight niche to where we operate. And so we'll be learning something really complex to be able to go out and tell their story to the candidate community and make sure we know our clients really well. So that constant learning and also just making a difference to people's lives is really what's kept me on it.

Claire Davis 07:16

Yeah, yeah, I believe it. And you know, what I remember back when I was looking for work myself, and in working with different recruiters, there is a stark difference between working with a recruiter who is somewhat familiar with the role in the company, and then coming to an outfit like yours who deep dive on those products. Because, you know, tell me what it's like when you get a new contract. And you start, do you start automatically thinking of the people in your Rolodex, you know, your, your potential clients? And who would be a great fit based on what kind of technology you're introducing?

Unknown Speaker 07:55

Oh, yeah, absolutely. So. So I mean, one thing I'll say is we, we look for partnerships with our clients, right, we're not a transactional recruiting firm. So if I have a potential client, that's just looking for resumes from us, and not actual partnership, where we're collaborating on a search, we're just not the right fit for someone like that. So, you know, there's, there's plenty of recruiters that are really good at that, and make a really good living doing that. But we're, we're gonna to be really strong business partners, with our clients. And so, so with that, we do do a deep dive on every new client we take on, and we want to be an extension of their team. So we're never gonna know their products as well as they do. But we want to know enough to be dangerous, and to get on the phone with a candidate and help them understand like, how is this company different? How are their products different? Where do they fit in the marketplace? And how do they differentiate themselves from their competitors. And so and even when we present an opportunity, we always start big picture like, Hey, here's what the industry is, here's where they fit into the industry. And then we kind of narrow down kind of like an upside down pyramid, we start big and then get more focused on that particular role. So So that's, that's a big part of what we do. And then yeah, absolutely. When we get a new search, we typically have I mean, names will just start popping in your head right away, I think of a search and in Chicago, Illinois and looking for a very specific background, you know, there's, we often have a Rolodex of contacts already that are popping in your head and you think, Oh, I talked to Jim six years ago, you'd be perfect for this I need to call and so that that happens all the time.

Claire Davis 09:23

You know, what blows my mind about that is there is a there are well known studies specifically by this. This researcher named Dunbar and Dunbar's principle is that you can really only intimately know roughly 150 people at a time, like our brain can only really absorb that much information and personal detail, right? Unless you're a recruiter, honest to God, I will never we would be out to dinner and for anyone who doesn't know my background, I was helping my family and their pharmaceutical recruiting business eons ago. And I remember so clearly that they would get a specialized search and people would come to their mind as perfect fit candidates who, like you said you hadn't talked to in months and years, but you develop that kind of relationship with people that you really do know them. And they were kind of relationship with your hiring teams. So you really do know who they're looking for. Because it's not just Is this person a great candidate? And they do they get results? It's are they a good fit for this specific opportunity? So I really appreciate that. I think that it's a mark of a really solid recruiting firm and one that places probably people in really great right fit jobs. So

Unknown Speaker 10:38

yeah, thing I would add to that clear that I think that's one of the indicators of success in recruiting is the ability to recall that information, right. So some of our newer team members, I think they think I'm crazy sometimes, right? Because they'll come in, and they'll say, Well, I'm searching Dallas, and I'll say, oh, you know what you should call Betsy in Dallas, I talked to her in 2012, she interviewed really well, for this one opportunity. And she's got a dog and two cats. And you know, and she loves to go on her boat on the weekends. And, and then they're just like, You're crazy. Right, but but, but I think that's a you know, it's tough like with your mom, right? That's probably why she was in the industry for so long, because she had the ability to make the recall that information and make those human connections and be able to tap into that, because we of course, have a database, right? Where we keep up with stuff, but like a lot of it's just gonna be very deep in your brain, and then you gotta be able to pull that out.

Claire Davis 11:34

Yeah, well, you know, I think that goes a long way in saying it's important to as a candidate, right? If you're, if you're an executive level candidate, and you want to really use recruiters and recruiting firms in the right way, you've got to develop that relationship. So can you tell us a little bit more about, you know, what are some best ways that people can make an increase the frequency with chatting with you? Or is it a way that they can build rapport or the right way to connect and follow up with you, that helps them to develop that relationship? Because I mean, I, I know, for myself, developing a long term relationship with recruiters was very important to me. But I only knew that I only understood that having been in the industry myself. So how should people go about that, so they can really allow you to get them to get to know them as as well as they can get to know you?

Unknown Speaker 12:30

Yeah, that's a great question. So it's funny, we were talking to the team about this the other day, that if you, if you treat a conversation, transactionally, you're gonna get out transactional results, right. And if you, if you're gonna build a human bond and connection with someone, then you're gonna get more out of that conversation. And so we were encouraging our team members, just make sure make sure you're developing those relationships, building that bond, that connection, because ultimately, that person A is more likely to follow you on this, this journey into a potential new job opportunity, but be They're also more likely to just communicate with you and share their real feelings and maybe not goes to you right for an interview, if they decided they don't want to pursue it, they're gonna take the time to call you and let you know, hey, clear, like, I decided not to pursue this. So I'd say it's the exact same thing for candidates, right, you get out what you put in. And if you put in time and energy to build some relationships with recruiters, you'll get more out of that relationship. And they're more likely to remember you, even if they're still looking at it as like, hey, they're calling me about this one job and treat it transactionally. Like, am I interested in Am I not like, Hey, let me let me build a relationship with this recruiter and get to know them a little bit so that they the next time, they have a great job here in New York City, they're gonna call me because I took the time to talk to them, open up them, share them, where I'm headed on my career path, and, and that way on top of mine next time, something comes up. So like, what's recruiting recruiters need to be doing that and candidates need to be doing that? And, you know, we don't want we don't have time for a 90 minute conversation, right? And we don't necessarily want to, you know, we can't necessarily how much time we're all busy, right? But you can take time to let your guard down a little bit and actually build a relationship with another human being.

Claire Davis 14:00

Yes, you know, I'm glad you use the word human being because true and transactional, right? I mean, these are things that come up so frequently in the careers conversation at every level, recruiters people to write, let's just say, and, and, you know, it's that human to human relationship, which really forges the bond, and then builds the trust so that when that right thing comes up, you know, you feel comfortable throwing your weight behind a certain candidate, because you've built that level of trust. So can we give people a few maybe specific things or specific ways that they can follow up with you? Or, you know, what are some things they should be asking a recruiter when they're on that call and say you've got a quick five minutes to fit them in? What's that conversation looking like for someone you already know? Right? Somebody is already on your Rolodex but wanting to check in and just nurture that connection.

Unknown Speaker 14:57

Yeah, I would recommend a try understand And what types of roles do they? Do they work right? So what what is their expertise and even when within medical sales might someone you can say someone's niche in medical sales recruiting, but then there's there's niches or niches or niches or niches, right? So, so so we do a lot of work in oncology, right. And so I could say I specialize in medical sales. But then I can also say, even more narrow I specialized in oncology. And then even more narrow than that I specialize in molecular diagnostics even more specialized in that I, we specialize in startup and midsize companies, the molecular diagnostics space. And and we have other markets that we work as well. But to understand what are the niches you actually serve? What types of roles do you typically have? And does that make sense for where I want to go in my career. So if you have, if you're in urology sales, and you love surgical devices, and you're talking to a recruiter who never does anything in surgical devices, and they service other areas of the medical sales industry, that might not be the person, you know, for you to build that long term relationship with, because they serve a different market, and then where you want to go. And so I would say dig into what do they actually focus on? What is their expertise, there's there are recruiters that focus just on specific markets, too. So if you live in Philadelphia, and you're talking to a local recruiter that specializes in medical sales, they may do everything, medical sales, but focus just on their local geography. And so that's another thing too, is like geographically, where, where are you focused? And then, you know, from a niche standpoint, what industries are you serving within medical sales, but there are generalist too, there's, there's medical sales, recruiting, for instance, just do anything and everything. So they're more generalist firms. So that's, and in that case, you know, that could be, you know, if you're just kind of open to anything, you know, you want to hear about all different types of opportunities, that could be a good avenue as well.

Claire Davis 16:42

Yeah, you know, I think I agree, I know, you know, there are general there are more specialized, I tend to be in the camp of the more specialized you that you are, the faster the results you may get. And I think that with anything, once we know the goal, we're after we can kind of position ourselves from all angles to go after that one target. So do you feel like there's a jet? You know, once you find a great opportunity, right, and then you're reaching out to certain candidates? Is there a timeline that you generally see, are people getting things, you know, getting into positions that are right fit faster? Because they're working with you versus a generalist? Kind of?

Unknown Speaker 17:23

Yeah, I would say, well, a couple of a couple things I'd bring up there, it's, you know, just like myself, right? When you start your career, you might, it might take you two or three jobs to figure out where you're headed, right, and what you want to do with your life. And so oftentimes, if we see people have moved around a lot, have a lot of job changes and a short period of time earlier in their career, we're just like, hey, we're just, that's just self discovery, trying to figure out where I'm gonna go with my career. And then once you get into medical sales, right, it's gonna be you kind of start over on that path and figure out okay, now, now, I've gotten through this magic door, what do I want to do now, and you may start off in a pretty generalist role selling to kind of just basic general supplies into the alar. And, and he may quickly realize, hey, I really enjoy working with the OBGYN surgeons, right. And so I want to focus on women's health. And so that's what I encourage people is like, try and figure out what even if you're not currently touching, and what are the areas that interests you? And how can you kind of double down your efforts to start specializing, because that's where that's where the real opportunities are, in terms of earnings and career path is, you know, if you you can bounce around for 20 years, doing different, you know, sales roles in different industries, but then, but then you kind of just a general generalist, right, and you don't have any expertise in one area. And so to create value for yourself and for others, and to take your career on the right path, I think specializing as you said, it's, it's absolutely the right the right thing to do. And in most scenarios,

Claire Davis 18:49

you know, and I see it, I see it both ways, I see folks who get who get in, and they enjoy that specific specialty, and they ride that to, you know, the heights of career. And then I see folks who get into a specific specialty, do it for 25 years, and then say, I've been women, I've been a women's diagnostics oncology for a while. I think I'm interested in this other arena, right, this other sort of specialty in medical sales. Do you think that you know, since clearly the 10,000 hour rule applies here, because you have been doing this for far more far longer than 10,000 hours, I'm going to call you an expert. So when you receive a new, a new client, a new candidate, are there certain things about them that kind of tip you off that they are going to have an easier time with making inroads or getting the next opportunity? Are there certain things that you see that that say to you, okay, this person is not only going to listen to my advice, but they're going to take it and run with it. And what does that candidate kind of look like?

Unknown Speaker 19:56

Yeah, there's it's interesting you say that, so We make a lot of assumptions, right? Based on someone's resume and their career path. It's oftentimes it's the only information in front of us to go off of right. So it's, and we had a scenario this morning where a candidate backed out of interview last minute. And I was like, Well, of course they did, they've been doing the same job at the same company for 10 straight years. And, and I'm not surprised, right? Because that's, that's very typical that that may be just a very conservative mindset. And they didn't really have a lot of pain in terms of why they would leave their current opportunity, they were someone we approach. And so you can take like those types of assumptions and apply them to all types of candidates, right. And, and so to someone's been in a particular industry and done very similar roles for 25, straight years, and they're looking to pivot, that actually can add a lot of value, sometimes other organizations that they want, like a fresh line of thinking and their leadership team. And, you know, they have all industry veterans in their management team, and they just want an outsider's perspective. There, that does happen all the time. So, so that is where it can be great. And then and then a lot of times, what we find is people may make that pivot, and then they run back to safety, they wrote back to what they know, right? So they may go to F, they've been specializing in oncology for 25 years, and then they go and try something in the urology space. If it doesn't go, well, they often will, you know, they flee back to safety to what they know. So we do see that a lot as well. So it certainly can be done. And a lot of companies will value that kind of unique perspective. And we think a lot where people are like, Hey, I just need something new, I want to learn a new discipline a new science. And, and so the main thing is like, you know, are they open minded? Are they a learner? Are they constantly trying to improve? Do they want to actually put in the time and energy and effort to try to become an expert in this new field? You know, when they've been working for 30, straight years, developing expertise in another sector?

Claire Davis 21:52

I'm so glad to hear you say that, that, you know, I think a lot of people feel that once they make that jump that Oh, no, I'm stuck, like I completely derailed. But it's really encouraging to hear that companies are looking favorably on that, in some cases, because you do bring that additional perspective. You know, I mean, when we've done anything for 2030 years, it pays to have a little bit of a, you know, fresh take on it so that we can really move it forward and not get stuck. So I'm glad to hear that that's becoming more of the norm.

Unknown Speaker 22:22

Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.

Claire Davis 22:25

So I would love to hear your perspective on the market to just change gears a little bit. Yeah. So the market in general, of course, right now is a confusing place. Some industries are hemorrhaging people, you know, a lot of tech, a lot of these these large fortune 100 companies, where do you see medical sales in that? Because what's confusing, I think to most is, while we're getting that message, we're also getting the message of it's one of the lowest unemployment rates in, you know, a very long time. So, what are you seeing in medical sales? And do you think that you could kind of predict maybe where the next quarter or two is going to take us?

Unknown Speaker 23:06

Yeah, I'll do my best. So yeah, it's, uh, yeah, right, because I don't think we've ever had inflation so high without being an official recession. And we've never had been, we've never been in a recession with unemployment so low. So we have like these, these confusing signals in the market where we have 3.6% unemployment, and I think 9.1% inflation, and those two numbers usually do not exist at the same time. So it's a lot of noise out there, and a lot of people confused on what's happening in the market. So right now, like, as of today, we're still seeing a really tight labor market. So there's candidates have lots of opportunities, a lot more choices. We have seen a few layoffs in the sectors that we serve. We've seen a handful of layoffs, nothing widespread. We've seen a handful of positions go on hold. But right now, it seems to be kind of steady and strong ahead. So I think there if people had expansion plans, I think they're reevaluating that at the moment, like, hey, we plan a q4 expansion. And can we actually go through with that? So but the good news is in the healthcare space, right, we have the aging baby boomers, it's going to continue to put a premium on health care coverage across the US and, and also, we're in a tight labor market, even if even upon employment goes up a little bit. It's still I don't know what the unemployment rate is specifically in medical sales, but I'm sure it's even less than what the broader market is. So there's a shortage of labor and there's going to be an increasing demand for health care services as the baby boomers continue to age I think the average age of the baby boomers in the late 50s Now humbly so they're hitting that phase in their life right where they're going to need the most access to care and the best health care so all that to say like long term feel good about it short term feel good about it. I wouldn't say like I feel great about it, but also still feel pretty good about a knot. You know, we just hired two more people, for instance, on our team, so which we wouldn't have done and they just started last month, which you know, if we were really fearful we would not have done that. So yeah. So yeah, I think for us things were still positive. So I still think we're gonna be good. You know, if we were intact, I'd be, you know, probably a little freaked out. But you know, we're in healthcare. And so I think we're gonna be fine.

Claire Davis 25:12

Yeah, well, first of all, congratulations for expanding your team. That's great. That's great news. And speaking of your team, you know, for those that are listening today, management, executive level medical sales professionals who are looking for a partner like you to get active in this space, that the diagnostic the oncology space in molecular oncology space and wanting to move forward in their career with a partner, like you and your team over at customer search, where can they reach you? What's the best way?

Unknown Speaker 25:44

Yeah, absolutely. So one thing I'll add to that, so we do a lot of work in oncology, we do a lot of work in med tech. And we also do a lot of work and the dental industry. So. So those are the three markets that we serve. And we have clients that are outside of that, but that's where we spend a lot of our time focusing in terms of prospecting for new clients. So my recommendation, of course, will be LinkedIn, if you're on LinkedIn, and please give me a follow on LinkedIn and shoot me a message to introduce yourself. You can also go to our website at Kessler search.com. And check it out myself, many of our team members to reach out about opportunities, we routinely have jobs, we post on there, and you can follow our company LinkedIn page, we post all of our jobs, typically, on our RP there. So you go to cancer research group on LinkedIn, and follow our company page and in any one of our team members as well.

Claire Davis 26:33

Great, thank you so much, Michael. It's always a pleasure chatting with you. I'm so glad we made this podcast happen. For those of you listening here this is we've had to reschedule a couple of times on my end. So Michael, thank you so much for your flexibility and I know that you are dedicated to getting this kind of information out to medical sales leaders and I truly appreciate you joining us today. So thank you so much.

Unknown Speaker 26:57

Thank you, Claire. It was great and your your energy, it's like a cup of coffee. So enjoy. Always enjoy talking to you. And it fires me up in the next few hours. So it's really been great.

Claire Davis 27:09

I'm so glad to hear. Well. Thank you so much. And thank you everybody for tuning in today. Thank you for those you're watching and be sure to connect with Michael and tester search over on LinkedIn and don't be a stranger. We'll see you next time.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai